Regarding tawassul (intercession)
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Hello All
I think it is about time to post this on FM, this was a long reply to an enemy of Islam on faithfreedom web site that I put togther a few months back
An FFI member (muhmed terror head) but I call him muhmed boofhead, came up with the following stupid claim
" 98
" ,(*) "the 1st is al anbya 98
the 2nd is safat 2322this verse of quran say that he(ALLAH) will punish the oppstils and what THAY WORSHIP in hell,now this is verry strange how would allah put your idols in hell,?
the moon ,the sun the thunder,the birds ,the sky,the cows,...etc.
ok we are responsible but what did the cow,camel ,dogs fault if i worsheped them..!and the sun how do u through the sun in hell its almost the same for it.
hope you realy understand arabic then its so easy to just read that verse of quran and know what i mean.Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
(9
22 Gather together those who were unjust and their associates, and what they used to worship
23 Besides Allah, then lead them to the way to hell.
(22)
(23)I will actually take the chance replying to the above idiotic claim and expose the Mushrikoon as well, the subject of Mushrikoon is very much related to the above, because at least to Shirk is to worship/serve another entity but Allah and that is what the verses above are talking about, the verses are talking about those wrong doers who are worshiping/serving others but Allah.
muhmed boofhead thinks that all these man mad gods worshipped by different humans like the sun, the cows, some humans, etc etc must be burnt in hell because the Quran told us above that Allah will gather the Mushrikoon/Kafiroon with those whom they worshipped in the hell fire.
The boofhead also wonders how the hell the sun will be burnt in hell?
Let me add to his wonder another wonder, how the hell Jesus will be burnt in hell? Come on, we know that the majority of the Christians if not all worship/serve Jesus as a god therefore according to the above verses, Jesus must be burnt in hell. Which is not true of course
muhmed boofhead is also wondering about the fairness of God who is going to punish other things for a crime committed by other humans.
To be honest I found the subject funny at the beginning but now I started to take it serious, however I firmly believe that those verses posted by him are only talking about the Humans and Jinn whom been worshipped by other humans.
Many including Muslims think that physically worshipping/serving another entity as a god is the only thing that constitute Shirk, but I firmly believe that this is not the only case to constitute Shirk, logically speaking if you have two opposite propositions , for example
- Don?t kill
- Kill
Another example is like this
- Believe in God
- Don?t believe in God
Would you like another one?, why not
- Don?t lie
- Lie
There are zillions of other examples and all will be religiously related , in the above examples it is clear that God is at one end and satan is at the other,
If you chose to ignore God proposition and obey satan proposition then you have shirked and worshipped/served satan because part of worshipping/serving God is to obey his messages, therefore if you obey others who order you to do the opposite to what the God orders you to do then you have shirked..
See, even though those Mushrikoon don?t consider satan as a god they still obeyed him in a proposition which was the opposite to what Allah said..
What should make it even worse for those clear cut Mushrikoon that Allah warned them in advance regarding Satan and yet they even ignored that warning by Allah. let?s look at the clear warning by Allah
Verily Satan is an enemy to you so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.
(6)
-> The verse starts with a very clear message, the devil took us as enemy therefore WE MUST TAKE HIM AS AN ENEMY ALSO? Verily Satan is an enemy to you so treat him as an enemy?, see how we have been WARNED in advance, he is not just our enemy, he is also the enemy of Allah, and if you claim to be following Allah but you listen to His enemy (Satan) at the same time by following what Satan propose then, your action must constitute SHIRK without even considering Satan as a god.
Let me ask you, if you listen to your enemy and the enemy of God instead of your God, wouldn?t that make you a Mushrik?
-> Please pay attention to the words ? He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.?, that is what satan can do, he only invites them so they become his companions in the blazing fire, I have to say, these words ? ?, which was translated as ? He only invites his adherents?, is translated wrong, the word ?Hizb? means ?Party?, i.e. Satan calls his party, which is the opposite to Hizb Allah which means the Party of Allah, let?s have a look at the verse telling us about Hizb Allah, (The party of Allah)
55 Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
56 And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.
(55)
(56)-> See who should be considered by the believers as Wali in the religion, i.e. we should obey them, ? Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe,?, those prophets and believers whom we should listen to can?t constitute Shirk because what they should tell us to do should be exactly the same as what Allah told us to do in His Quran, i.e. NOT THE OPPOSITE, look how those believers were described in the same verse ? those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.?, NOT JUST ANYONE CLAIMING TO BE A BELIEVER.
-> Allah, His messengers and all true believers constitute the Hizb of Allah?then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.?, clearly we have another opposing party which is Satan and all his followers (adherents) from the humans and the jinn , satan is trying to make his party bigger by calling more to join as 356 told us
Remember we were told in 356 that satan ?only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.?, let?s see what Allah invites His party for
And Allah invites to the abode of peace and guides whom He pleases into the right path.
(25)
-> See how the two opposing parties have totally opposite invitation, here is both under each other
356, ?satan only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.?
1025, ? And Allah invites to the abode of peace?
So if you follow satan then you have shirked.
Let me highlight satan's main objective, it is clearly to flaw everyone of us, he is so committed that he said this to Allah
(Satan) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-?
(82)
-> By the power of God, satan will do his best to put all humans in the wrong, you have to know that satan main enemy are the believers and not the unbelievers, he needs to do nothing more to the unbelievers the unbelievers already shirked by following him opposite to what Allah said, unless they think of believing then he will come back to them from every where trying hard to put them in the wrong again
16- He said Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.
17- Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).
(16)
(17)-> See, ? verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path? and how he will do it? ? I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).?
See how satan is working hard to increase his Hizb (party) numbers, you have to realize that he is giving the above promise to God Himself ? and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee)?, i.e. it is either we join the winning party of Allah or the losing party of satan, if we join satan?s party and ignore Allah?s party then we have shirked because Allah is leading His party and satan is leading his opposite party.
Therefore all those who submitted to satan have shirked, satan is not a Mushrik though (will be explained at the end of my comment), sure all his party?s new recruits from the humans and the jinn will work hard to do exactly what satan did to them, i.e. they will try hard to increase their party numbers, i.e. if we listen to them then we have shirked because they say the opposite of what Allah says and we obeyed them and ignored Allah, let me give you a clear example from the Quran of some humans who work hard to say the opposite to what Allah says, if we listen to those unbelievers bound to hell then we will be Mushrikoon
Here is what Allah tells us to do
And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.
(204)
-> The message of our God is clear as light? And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.?
Now let?s have a look and see if what the disbeliebers (like many on FFI web site) say is the opposite to what Allah said above
26 And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
27 But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.
28 That is the reward of the enemies of Allah-- the fire; for them therein shall be the house of long abiding; a reward for their denying Our communications.
29 And those who disbelieve will say Our Lord! show us those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men that we may trample them under our feet so that they may be of the lowest.
(26)
(27)
(2
(29)-> Subhan Allah, see how verse 4126 is telling us that the Kafir members of satan party are telling us the opposite to what Allah told us ? And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.?, that is exactly what the boys and girls on FFI web site do, look how the Quran is exposing them with such accuracy, let me put the two verse under each other and see how they are the total opposite
7204, Allah said
?And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.?4126, the members of Satan party say
?Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.?Now if we follow what satan party call for which is the opposite to what Allah party call for then we have shirked, no question about it.
-> The problem for all those Kafirs and Mushriks from among the humans and the jinn is this as we read in the 4127, ? But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds?
-> I call them the enemy of Allah, indeed they are so? That is the reward of the enemies of Allah-- the fire; for them therein shall be the house of long abiding; a reward for their denying Our signs?, wow what an achievement, please put you hands for such losers, (use your finger tips to clap please), the idiots on FFI web site reject that I called them ?enemies of Allah?, well, didn?t they mock Allah, His messengers and His message on a daily basis trying to increase their losing party number?, don?t they tell the believers and those thinking about believeing ? Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome??, the enemies of Allah is a very well deserved label, the problem is, it is the worst label a human or a jinn can have, the consequence of gaining such label is simply a well deserved seat in hell.
-> So those who shirked by listening to others humans and jinn who opposed the message of Allah will be in big trouble indeed, so what they will do then is simply calling for Allah to allow them to crush them under their feet?And those who disbelieve will say Our Lord! show us those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men that we may trample them under our feet so that they may be of the lowest.?, they followed them in what they wanted them to follow which was the opposite to what Allah wanted them to follow so they shirked, it is clear that what they followed is stated as ? ?, ? those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men?. the ones they worshipped/served, the ones they obeyed to the contrary to what Allah said to obey. This is called shirk.
Hell is only made to be the punishment from those among men and jinn, this is what Allah ordained to the men and jinn
And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.
(13)
-> Firstly, Allah is telling us that He is the only One to guide any soul to its guidance? And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance,?, however Allah is not going to do it randomly by selecting some to guide and cursing the others, it does not work this way with our God, Allah guidance will only be offered to those sincere ones seeking His guidance, and He is the only one who can know who is sincere and who is not, who deserves to be guided and who does not., He knew that many will be arrogant and will join satan?s party so He declared ? but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.? , see only the jinn and men will be the residents of hell, there are many future residents of Hell on FFI whom we can easily identify so far and according to what they say.
This oath taken by Allah on Himself that both the humans and jinn will be the residents of Hell is stated again
118 And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
119 Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
(11
(119)-> See how the message in 3213 was stated again but in two verses instead, this is the beauty of the Arabic Quran, those who can see it are really blessed by our God. ? And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation? , this actually a question asked by many ignorant, they always say why Allah didn?t send one religion instead of many?. They think that this way humans won?t differ between one and another and will be united, however Allah is telling us even if He made us one nation (one religion) we will still differ ? and they shall continue to differ.?, the reason for that is explained in the following verse
-> Those who won?t differ (i.e. accept all religions as one religion from the same God) are blessed by Allah ? Except those on whom your Lord has mercy;, now for humans to differ even if they are made into one nation is a must BECAUSE THIS IS WHY ALLAH CREATED ALL OF US ? and for this did He create them;?, see, this is EXACTLY what happens on FFI on a daily basis, a struggle between the believers and those enemy of Allah who want to put out His light, well, here is their reward?and the word of your Lord is fulfilled Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.?, see all those members who joined the party of satan are only men and jinn, and the hell is made for them ONLY. Well done.
The following verse clearly says that many of jinn and humans are destined to hell
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
(179)
-> See, nothing else mentioned than humans and jinn who are destined to hell?And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men?, i.e. the verses posted by muhmed boofhead are talking about those humans and jinn who were worshipped/served i.e. ?WERE OBEYED? by other Humans and Jinn in what is the opposite to what Allah said.
When the many wrong doers among the humans and the jinn face hell, this is the message that will be told to both
O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.
(130)
-> This message clearly indicate that only the humans and jinn are the two creatures created by our God who were given freewill, therefore the punishment only applies to them ? O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours??, they will CONVICT THEMSELVES, ? They shall say We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.?, an example of such losers is msWesterner on FFI of course.
Indeed only men and jinn are the only two creatures who lie and say the opposite about our God, i.e. the punishment only applies to them and not to the sun nor to the moon neither to the cows which have been worshipped, here is a few verses that clearly prove that non other than the humans and the jinn who lie about our God
Even the Jinn know it
4 And that the foolish amongst us used to forge extravagant things against Allah
5 And that we thought that men and jinn did not utter a lie against Allah(4)
(5)The enemies of any prophet must be from among the humans or the jinn or both, they can?t be anything else
112 And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
113 And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).
114 Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) explained; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
(112)
(113)
(114)-> Clear from the above that only the humans and jinn are the enemies of any prophet ? And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn?, those enemy among the humans and jinn talk nothing but falsehood ?some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them),?, Allah can easily stop the enemy but He is allowing them for a purpose which is to convict themselves and surely test others?and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge?
-> Only those who don?t believe in the Last Day listens to and obey the falsehood ? And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it?, and that is how they should convict themselves, ? and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).?
-> The above falsehood is not only by those Kafiroon (disbelievers) but also by those believers who take other laws from human then make it divine laws that must be adhered to as if it is from Allah however THERE SHOULD BE NO DIVINE LAWS FROM ANY HUMAN, ALL DIVINE LAWS THAT WE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR MUST BE FROM ALLAH ALONE ? Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) explained; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.?
Now, let?s move on to a very important and related subject that I mentioned earlier, the subject of Shirk, this is still related to the humans and the jinn as I will explain, most people are raised and only fed that to shirk is to take another entity as a god in addition to the One and only God, for example the Christians are Mushrikoon because they took other entities as other gods in addition to the one and only God, the Hindus are the exact same despite both the Veda and the Bible say that there is only ONE GOD. This type of Shirk is committed when humans make PARTNERS as GODS in addition to Allah, this shirk is obvious to a child, in fact this is what they mostly teach Muslim children as I was taught when I was a child. The Quran talked about this type of Shirk of course as we will see soon.
The Quran also talked more about another type of Shirk, this is the one that is harder to understand, it is committed by taking man made laws and making it divine as if it was ordained by Allah. people committing this type of Shirk don?t really realize that they are shirking, this is because they are programmed that Shirk is mostly to take others as gods in addition to the One and only God. We will see clearly that the Quran talked more about this type of Shirk, this makes sense of course because this is the Shirk that most humans are not aware of.
To be continued....
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Let me summarize the above paragraph in points then my elaboration will follow
There are two types of Shirk
- To take other entities as gods in addition to the One and only God
- To obey man made laws that were called by them as divine laws (religious laws) from God
The first type of Shirk must involve physical worshipping to those other entities that have been made gods, on the other hand the second type of shirk (the most common and disguised one) does not involve physical worshipping to those men who made these man made laws rather OBEYING WHAT THEY SAY AS IF IT IS DIVINE FROM GOD, they also think that if these man made laws are not adhered to then they will commit Kufr (disbelief), can you see how it constitutes Shirk?, simply it does because they took these laws as being part of the religion sent by the One and only God, I know this is going to be very hard on many Muslims, it was really hard on me myself a few years back, but Al hamdullelah I refused to continue submitting to what I was fed with since I was a child, it is sort of like being programmed indeed, exactly like how the Christians are programmed, NO BLOODY DIFFERENCE.
To tackle this huge problem facing all Muslims I decided to find what Shirk is according to the Quran, i.e. according to the One and only God, not according to any man made concepts, what I found in the Quran that when Allah talks about the first type of Shirk, He asks the Mushrikoon, ?Where is MY PARTNERS?, ?Shurakaei?, it looks like this in Arabic ? ?, can you see how it was said using ?MY?, i.e. partners who are gods like Him.
When Allah talks about the second type of Shirk , He asks the Mushrikoon, ?Where is YOUR PARTNERS?, ? Shurakaakum?, it looks like this in Arabic ? ?, can you see how it was said using ?YOUR?, it can also be said as ? Shurakaahum? ? ?, ?Their partners? i.e. partners who are the least humans like them but not gods, those human partners (the least) whom were obeyed in laws that were made RELIGIOUS LAWS and have been associated to the One and Only God as if it is ordained by Him.
I know this is tough to comprehend, well the Quran should make this matter clear to us, let?s look at a few verses
Here is an example showing Allah talking about the first type of Shirk
Then, on the Day of Judgment, He will cover them with shame, and say Where are My 'partners' concerning whom ye used to dispute (with the godly)? Those endued with knowledge will say This Day, indeed, are the Unbelievers covered with shame and misery,-
(27)
-> See what Allah will say to the Mushrikoon type I on the JD ? ?, i.e. ? Where are My partners?. see the ?MY?
Next it will be said to them to call for those partners (gods like Allah)
One Day He will say, Call on those whom ye thought to be My partners, and they will call on them, but they will not listen to them; and We shall make for them a place of common perdition.
(52)
-> Again see how it was said? ?, ? Call on those whom ye thought to be My partners?, see ?MY? is used in the verse, i.e. Allah is saying ?MY PARTNERS?, i.e. gods like Him. And that is the first type of Shirk, the word ? ?, ?Shurakaai? ?My Partners? was only used 5 times in the whole Quran (1627, 1852, 2862, 2874 & 4147)
Here is a good example for the other type of Shirk which was referred to as ? ? and ? ?, ?Your partners? and ?Their partners? respectively
22 And on the day when We shall gather them all together, then shall We say to those who associated others (with Allah) Where are your associates whom you asserted?
23 Then their excuse would be nothing but that they would say By Allah, our Lord, we were not polytheists.
24 See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.
(22)
(23)
(24)-> See how it was said to those who committed the second type of Shirk ? ?, ? Where are your associates?, not ?my associates?
-> The problem for those who commit the second type of Shirk that they don?t really think that they are Mushrikoon ? Then their excuse would be nothing but that they would say By Allah, our Lord, we were not polytheists.?, see, a clear cut Mushrik who is worshipping another thing as a god (the first type of Shirk) can?t really deny the crime, but with those who commit the second type of shirk which does not involve any physical worshipping rather obeying other man made laws which made associated to Allah, they really think that they are not Mushrikoon, but the are surely confused and misguided ? See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.?
Indeed Allah even explained to us what He means by ?Your partners? and ?Their partners?, let?s have a look
Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment.
(21)
-> See, ? ?, i.e. ? Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction??, please tell me, how many Shiekh, Mullahs, Imams and Muftis prescribed to us many things in the religion that Allah never sanctioned in His Quran?, can?t get clearer than this, indeed all those Muslims who follow any Imam, or a Mufti or a Shiekh or a Mullah in any thing ?Haram or Halal? that Allah never sanctioned must be committing the second and common type of Shirk as 4221 clearly is telling us.
This warning against saying ?This is Halal and that is Haram? was clearly stated in the Quran
?But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- This is lawful, and this is forbidden, so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.?
(116)
-> See how the verse started? But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,-?, see how what is about to be said is already described as FALSE, let?s see what we should never say ? ?, i.e. ? This is lawful, and this is forbidden?, again it was described as lies associated to Allah ? ?, i.e. ? so as to ascribe false things to Allah?, the problem for those who suggest that this is Halal and that is Haram as simply as follow? For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.?
Let?s have a look at another example of Shirk type 2 where the Mushrikoon listen to their associates and kill their children, I believe this verse is talking about the Jinn trying to obscure the believers from their religion, if the believers obey them then they shirked
And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion; and if Allah had pleased, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
(137)
-> Again see how it was said ? ?, i.e. ?Their associates?, not the associated of Allah, ? And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children,?, their associates only have one objective in regard to the religion of Allah ? that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion?, i.e. if the obey them then they shirked and those who has been obeyed will be their associates (their partners).
The problem is for those who obey others but God in matters that are related to the religion and are never sanctioned by God, they think they are not Mushrikoon, even those who are obeyed will deny that those who obeyed them were worshipping them
28 And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to the polytheists Keep where you are, you and your associates; then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say It was not us that you served
29 Therefore Allah is sufficient as a witness between us and you that we were quite unaware of your serving (us).
(2
(29)-> How clear is that, well both the Mushrikoon type 2 and their associates will be held to account? And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to the polytheists Keep where you are, you and your associates;?, see how Allah is going to stun them ?Keep where you are?, then both will be separated then their associates will deny that those who obeyed them were worshipping them ? then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say It was not us that you served?, see
-> They are not lying actually, they are only confused because they don?t know that by others obeying them in matters that are related to the Sharia of the religion while Allah never sanctioned it, they took them as their associates , their associates will even seek the witness of Allah that they were not aware that those who obeyed them were really worshipping them? Therefore Allah is sufficient as a witness between us and you that we were quite unaware of your serving (us).?, again, how clear is that.
The following verses are really compelling
35 Say Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?
36 And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.
(35)
(36)-> Allah is raising a very strong argument against the polytheists type 2, ? Say Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth??, Allah is also giving the answer to the Question He raised against those polytheists type 2 ? Say Allah guides to the truth.?, we only have one guidance sent to us from Allah called the Quran, the strong argument continues, looks like the polytheists type 2 have been cornered? Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided??, see this bit must apply to Bukhari and Muslim, both themselves needs to be guided by Allah, so why the hell we should follow them in all these religious matters that were not sanctioned by Allah in His Quran? ?not because they claim the prophet said so, we will never be able to prove that the prophet said any word in the their so called sahih books), well, here is what Allah is telling those Mushrikoon who follow Bukhari, Muslim and others in any religious matter that is not sanctioned by Allah, ? how do you judge??
-> Indeed following Bukhari, Muslim and others in any religious matter that is not sanctioned by Allah is nothing but following conjectures, and because these conjectures are religious related then this will constitute Shirk type 2, however most polytheists follow nothing but conjectures? And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture;?, here is other news for those polytheists type 2 who follow conjectures in religious matters ? surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.?, the truth mentioned is the Quran of course (it is the only truthful book the believes have), and sure the Truth (the Quran) is exposing their shirk fair and square as we have seen so far.
Indeed Allah mentioned the second type of Shirk using the two words ? ? ?Shurakaakum? and ? ? ?Shurakaahum? ?Your partners? and ?Their partners? respectively 15 times compared with the 5 times He talked about the first type of Shirk represented by the word ? ?, ?Shurakaai? ?My Partners? this indicates that the second type of shirk is far more common by humans.
You have to understand that the start of the Shirk by humans has seeded from Satan himself, because if we obey him in what is clearly the opposite to what Allah told us then we have shirked, i.e. obeying Satan is a clear cut shirk. In fact satan will expose those who followed him and will tell then that they shirked by listening to him, this will happen on in the JD.
This crystal clear fact of SHIRKING SATAN WITH ALLAH when we obey satan, will be told to those ignorant humans by satan himself on the JD
And Satan will say when the matter is decided It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.
(22)
-> See, when the JD verdict is passed, Satan will tell whoever he managed to invite and flaw ? And Satan will say when the matter is decided It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you.?, the fact of the matter is, Satan never had authority on us but a mere invitation ? I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me?, but he can?t be blamed because he didn?t force them ? then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls.?, in fact both will be crying hard at that time ? I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine.?, then he will tell them that their actions was SHIRK ? I reject your former act in associating me with Allah.?
From all the above there is no doubt that the ones been worshipped in the verses mohmed boofhead posted are only talking about those among the humans and the jinn who are misguided themselves by joining satan party then continued to deceive other humans and jinn by lying and saying the opposite about what Allah says, when we follow those misguided ones by listening and obeying what they say which is the opposite to what Allah says then we shirked and on the JD both the Mushrikoon and their associates will be gathered in hell together as the verses posted by mohmed boofhead
It is also clear that the majority of the Muslims are committing shirk without even realizing it, just look at how most Muslims talks about the heresay hadith and prophet Mohammad while they hardly talk about Allah through His Quran, they even reach the extreme level of shirk that when they mention Allah and His prophet in the same sentence they only praise the prophet and not Allah, they even abbreviate the name Allah to the letter A in (SAW) while the name Mohammad is written in full and never been abbreviated, we have seen the kafirs on FFI web site doing it with the name Mohammad by abbreviating to Mo so the Mushrikoon followed their foot steps and did it with the name Allah and made it A, no wonder we read the following verse in the Quran
And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
(106)
Do I really need to Adao Allah to help those confused Muslims?, well while I hope it happens, I won?t end my comment by asking Allah to guide them because it will never happen unless they change and confront their clear cut shirk, here is a photo from a so called Islamic country (Egypt) showing the two names next to each other ?Allah and Mohammad?, this photo is taken by me personally a few month back in a cemetery in Egypt, ironically you will see both names next to each other every where, even stickers on cars and public transport
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/shirk.jpg
Salam
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer. While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation
Hello
I agree, that is why we have to stick to the LITERAL meaning of the Quran unless there is a compelling reason not to do so
and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer.
I totally agree
While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
I say, its confusion for all
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
I'm not a Quran aloner though, you may conisder me a sunni like you, in fact this is how I'm preceived on this web site, so let's make this discussion from a sunni to a sunni, can you please reply to my long thread?
I actually posted it on a clear cut sunni forum www.islammessage.com and yet to have an answer, I encouraged them to prove me wrong and you are very welcome to do so
take care
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer. While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
Just because no one agrees with your "tawssul" theory as not a kind of shirk, you haste in labelling people as confused and as having their own interpretation? Come on, we are here to learn and benefit from each other, so we must have our different understandings. Every one of us has a prior text, be it sunnism, shiism, atheism, judaism, christian(ism)...and we are trying to get rid of this luggage. While doing so, different understandings come up. This is quite healthy. This is change, and unless you change what you have been doing you can't advance. God orders us to change when we find that we are stagnant and not moving forward.
And AhmedBahgat
Salaam(me again)
This is a very good detailed post. I hope you always engage in serious fruitful discussions.
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And AhmedBahgat
Salaam(me again)
This is a very good detailed post. I hope you always engage in serious fruitful discussions.
Hello Samia
No worries, let's cross our fingers to get an answer from our sunni brothers though, I'm waiting for months to be honest, I will still welcome to be proven wrong using the Quran by anyone
Salam
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Hello
I agree, that is why we have to stick to the LITERAL meaning of the Quran unless there is a compelling reason not to do so
I totally agree
I say, its confusion for all
I'm not a Quran aloner though, you may conisder me a sunni like you, in fact this is how I'm preceived on this web site, so let's make this discussion from a sunni to a sunni, can you please reply to my long thread?
I actually posted it on a clear cut sunni forum www.islammessage.com and yet to have an answer, I encouraged them to prove me wrong and you are very welcome to do so
take care
Ok,
First of all relying on the Quran for the verses about shirk would be in my book a mistake. Why?
Because unlike the Arabs, we do not know what shirk is. So we read the verses and we think we know whats been said. This is the problem when you take verses addressing the pagans and try to interpret it when it is more better to read this verses to a polytheist and ask him what does it mean. I will only try to explain how I understand them. First it is very important to understand why I posted the Reza Aslan article from his book, No God but God. It is because their were different types of religions in the Arabian peninsula. Unlike the Christians or Jews the Arabs had no scriptures and former religious heirarchy and dogma. So people have different gods and had different religious mythology. So the Quran is difficult to understand in this regard without understanding what are those different beliefs. There were many gods the Arabs worshiped and they varied with each other. The 3 greates were the Allat, The Uzza and the Manat. But there were also hundreds of gods in the Ka'ba representing various tribes and regions and stratum of the Arabian peninsula.
What is shirk can be best understood by studying the religions of the world and then understanding what the Quran is saying. The Arabs lived and practiced shirk and understood what the Quran is saying.
Another thing is when you quote the Quran about a subject(such as shirk) its best first to look at all the verses in the Qurn about shirk and all the conversation the pagans made in the Quran. Hint, about their using the defense of ancestors. Don't assume that they did not know what they were doing was wrong or had no sense and logic to it, but indeed it was ancestorial pride that kept them refusing the Quran. Others believed in what they had, others were skeptical but kept it inside them while others found the Quranic message the same as the Jews and Christians ( stories of the older generations) as they called it. Hence the concept of an after life for many was unbelievable. So this is complex and the Quran is speaking to a tribal society that had no formal structure when it came to religion. I believe this is the reason why this confusion is taking place. A person of a hindu or budhist or shinto or an animist will understand those verses so why don't you let them explain it to you.
It is the belief that one deity alone can not be capable of maintaining this universe and answering all these prayers and he needs help like a CEO needs managers to run a business. Or since we can't see God we will give a representative here on Earth where we can see him and worship that and this representative will be somehow connected to God like the Pharoah or shintoism does(emperor). Many Christians have the same as we know with Jesus.
Just my 2 cents, but I advice you is first study the world's religions and the Arab paganism before trying to intepret these verses.
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Hello Mate
Well I'm an Arab and was fed all the history you can imagine since I was a baby in Cairo schools untill I was 24 then left Egypt
Anyway, can you please reply directly to the verses and what I said?, what you have said in your last comment meant the least to me (no offence), just hit it head on and show me what you mean by studying the Arab paganism and the world religions within the context of the Quran to understand what Shirk means
Thanks
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Hello Mate
Well I'm an Arab and was fed all the history you can imagine since I was a baby in Cairo schools untill I was 24 then left Egypt
Anyway, can you please reply directly to the verses and what I said?, what you have said in your last comment meant the least to me (no offence), just hit it head on and show me what you mean by studying the Arab paganism and the world religions within the context of the Quran to understand what Shirk means
Thanks
It means, excuse me, that your understanding of these verses according to me is wrong.
And its wrong because you do not understand shirk.
When you say the polytheist will say we were not practicing shirk on judgement day it does not mean they did not know what they were doing is shirk, this is an argument to say the Muslims today are also practicing shirk but are not aware. If its that read the Quran and see if the Quran thinks they are simply just ignorant and don't know what they are doing. All these prophets came and told the people, and you are telling me they are not aware of what they are doing.
Of course they are going to say were were not associating partners with God when hell is right front of them. You are not analyzing these verses properly. You will do the same if hell is in front of you. These people never believed there will be a judgement day and took religion as a joke. Why should you take it serious if you believe nothing will come out of it anyways. Many of them probably were just a bunch of atheist following traditional rituals. You have to understand the psychology of judgement day. I found your translation very simplistic and I think you need to acquaint yourselves with the mindset of a polytheist to understand these verses. Many of the time people will throw lies to defend their heritage, there are countless of examples in the Quran about that.
As far as making halal and haram, its about as I said not having any scriptures but making stuff up. The Arabs had no scriptures, yet made all these things up and said about God what they knew not.
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What do you mean a thief is also a mushrik, don't you think you are applying the same wahhabi concept of the saved sect. That 95% of the muslims are deviants and astray and practicg idol and following jewish or pagan or zoroastrian rituals and just a small community is on the right path. Is this not the same logic we saw from the wahhabi, where they are always saying that only they are on the stright path and the rest of the Ummah has gone astray one way or the other. Just like you use shirk, they use shirk, and just like they use bida' you use bida' also with the intended result is other than a few everyone else is lost.
No i am not applying any of wahhabi concepts. In fact I am unfamiliar with any of wahhabi concept.
The wahhabi, sunnis, shias and other sectarian groups usually posses a "holier than thou" attitude, they think in a boolean terms of logic (TRUE/FALSE). While in reality the case is more often "fuzzied" thus if we want to "judge" the morality of a person we can find that he or she is 20% guided, 10% Shirk, 60% muslims etc. (This is just an example of non-boolean representation of things)The people of the book is often called a MUSHRIK in the Quran, (while on another verse, there are also a reference that some of them are actually a Mukmin). The ratio of SHIRK of every people is actually not the same. There are those who are murderer, adulterer, idol worshipper, envier of other people's belonging and there are also some Jews who abandon the sabbath day. And also there are also a murderer who repent. (THus he was SHIRK-ing from God's commandment and then repent / back to upholding the commandment).
Thus you and I and them actually posses some SHIRK quality in ourselves, although the rate/ratio/level of SHIRK-ness is varied. And that's why God set certain tolerance limit.
In the Quran you can read of an example of the one who has transgress all tolerance limit is The Firawn. In Firawn personality you can find that he declare himself to be God, murder many people, steal from his own people and many other attributes of badness. Thus Firawn is a MUSHRIK beyond the limit and that's why God sent a messenger named Moses to him to convey an "ultimatum message".
Repent or be destroyed...Salam / Peace
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It means, excuse me, that your understanding of these verses according to me is wrong.
Hello
Firtsly the Quran tells you "If you are greeted, you should reply with a better one or at least the same greeting", does not your hadith say the same?
And its wrong because you do not understand shirk.
Fair enough, I hope you do understand what shirk is and explain it to me.
When you say the polytheist will say we were not practicing shirk on judgement day it does not mean they did not know what they were doing is shirk,
So they will be lying to Allah on the JD to find a way out?, do you think on that day they can deliberately lie?
this is an argument to say the Muslims today are also practicing shirk but are not aware.
Most certainly are, didn't you see the photo with the two names next to each other?, well if you go to most mosques in Egypt you will find that they only talk about the dead Mohammad and hardly talk about the ever lasting Allah, would not that be shirk?
If its that read the Quran and see if the Quran thinks they are simply just ignorant and don't know what they are doing. All these prophets came and told the people, and you are telling me they are not aware of what they are doing.
Sorry, what was that?, you got me confused with this one, what the dead prophets have to do with it right now?
Of course they are going to say were were not associating partners with God when hell is right front of them.
Hmm, so what you are saying that they will lie on that day, see they know they were Mushriks but they will lie and say to Allah that they never did, does not add up to me, so what make you think that Allah will allow them to lie on that day?, or should I say, what make you think that after seeing the truth they will be trying to coverup a crime with another crime knowing well that Allah knows everything inside out on that day of truth?
You are not analyzing these verses properly.
How about you analyse them and educate me? please dont be lazy, try to work hard as I do if you are serious
You will do the same if hell is in front of you.
Really?, well what you say is nothing but conjectures, yet on someone else behalf, let me tell you if I know that I'm a Mushrik and faced with Hell in front of my eyes, I will only say sorry and admit my guilt, I won't coverup a crime with an excuse that is also a crime (lie) knowing that Allah must know that I will be lying, do you get it mate?
These people never believed there will be a judgement day and took religion as a joke
Excuse me, 12106 clearly talks about those who believe in Allah, in fact 28 is also telling us about those who claim to believe in Allah and the JD and yet they are not believers, please read 28-20 and 12106
. Why should you take it serious if you believe nothing will come out of it anyways.
Again, those who believe in Allah, must believe that something is coming out of it, please try to be logical, the verses clearly tell us that those Mushrikoon and Kafiroon claim to believe in Allah and the Last Day
Many of them probably were just a bunch of atheist following traditional rituals.
I have never seen an atheist who claims to believe in Allah, who are you fooling exactly
You have to understand the psychology of judgement day.
Sure, here is an anatomy of Jahannam Anatomy of Jahannam
I found your translation very simplistic
LOL, why I have to make it complicated?
On the other hand what do you mean by MY TRANSLATIONS?, if you mean the English verses then sorry they are not mine rather Shakir (mostely) or others, but if you mean my walkthrough, then I say what the literal meaning says unless there is a compelling reason not to take literally, I also avoid most conjectures EXACTLY AS Allah ordered me to do in the Quran, (do you know that verse?) but if you want explaining the Quran verses to be a complicated process full of plenty of fairy tales stories that are nothing but conjeectures then be my guest, I won't, obvioulsy what your Ummah is doing as you do is not working, or is it?
and I think you need to acquaint yourselves with the mindset of a polytheist to understand these verses.
LOL, no I won't do that, I know well what a polytheist is, I dont need to live his life, I don't think we need a master degree or some rocketr science to understand what a polytheist is
Many of the time people will throw lies to defend their heritage,
Would that apply to me and you?
there are countless of examples in the Quran about that.
Yep, it happens a lot in this life, I might have done it myself when i was a teen some 20 years ago, but the question is, can we deblibrately lie to Allah on the JD? can you please answer this question
As far as making halal and haram, its about as I said not having any scriptures but making stuff up. The Arabs had no scriptures, yet made all these things up and said about God what they knew not.
Is that all what you have to say regarding the Halal and Haram?
Thanks
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There are two types of shirk major and minor. If you believe that there are two gods, one creating the good and one creating the bad, then you have committed a major shirk. If you believe that there is one god who is the creator of all things but there are other lesser gods that help him in governing the world, then you have committed a major shirk. If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
About tawassul
If you ask a righteous person who is alive to pray for you, that's fine and nothing wrong with that. You can ask your parents to pray for you or your friends or your congregation to pray for your health, etc.
If you go to a grave of a dead person and ask him who is dead to pray for you, then you are being silly because it's like you are talking to somebody who is sleep. In fact you are in a position to pray for him!If we want something from god (such as forgiveness for our sins) it's best that we pray directly to Him. Praying to any other being means we believe they hear us but they can't hear us because they are not all-hearing. Only God is the all-hearing (as-samee'.
Prophet never taught his companions to make tawassul to him after he passed away. The only evidence (the story of the blind man) fails to persuade me because in that story prophet is alive and aware of the blind man's prayer (well he taught him the prayer himself).
This is what I think and I think this is the safer position. I don't think someone who says "yaa mohammad" has committed a major shirk though. However I see no benefit in it and it's best to avoid it.
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Salaam hajirfm
There are two types of shirk major and minor. If you believe that there are two gods, one creating the good and one creating the bad, then you have committed a major shirk. If you believe that there is one god who is the creator of all things but there are other lesser gods that help him in governing the world, then you have committed a major shirk. If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
You did not define "the minor shirk", so I have a question
Which of the two shirks did God mean in all the verses where shirk, or its derivtives, was mentioned? Of course you do not have to mention them ALL, just one example of each kind of shirk.If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
If you go to a grave of a dead person and ask him who is dead to pray for you, then you are being silly because it's like you are talking to somebody who is sleep. In fact you are in a position to pray for him!
Just being silly? Am I not attributing to this dead person the "All hearing"? Am I attributing the "raziq"? "the all powerful"? "the knower of the unseen" (because to him, my world is the unseen)?
Ah! Thanks! You replied correctly
If we want something from god (such as forgiveness for our sins) it's best that we pray directly to Him. Praying to any other being means we believe they hear us but they can't hear us because they are not all-hearing. Only God is the all-hearing (as-samee'.
So, according to your definition, this is also a major shirk, not just "being silly".
This is what I think and I think this is the safer position. I don't think someone who says "yaa mohammad" has committed a major shirk though. However I see no benefit in it and it's best to avoid it.
Why? Isn't Muhammad a dead person? Whta's the difference between saying "ya Muhammad" or "ya Shadhaly" or "ya Ali" or "ya ...any-dead-person"?
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Salam everyone
Wait what? crossing fingers means that if you do this gesture you hope it will give you luck or hope. Right?
Hello
I'm after hope not luck
Salam
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Salam
Okay i see, because i always saw crossing fingers as hoping for luck.
Hello
Well, we still can consider ourselves lucky if we get a satisfying reply from a recognised shiekh or a mufti
Salam
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There are two types of shirk major and minor. If you believe that there are two gods, one creating the good and one creating the bad, then you have committed a major shirk. If you believe that there is one god who is the creator of all things but there are other lesser gods that help him in governing the world, then you have committed a major shirk. If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
About tawassul
If you ask a righteous person who is alive to pray for you, that's fine and nothing wrong with that. You can ask your parents to pray for you or your friends or your congregation to pray for your health, etc.
If you go to a grave of a dead person and ask him who is dead to pray for you, then you are being silly because it's like you are talking to somebody who is sleep. In fact you are in a position to pray for him!If we want something from god (such as forgiveness for our sins) it's best that we pray directly to Him. Praying to any other being means we believe they hear us but they can't hear us because they are not all-hearing. Only God is the all-hearing (as-samee'.
Prophet never taught his companions to make tawassul to him after he passed away. The only evidence (the story of the blind man) fails to persuade me because in that story prophet is alive and aware of the blind man's prayer (well he taught him the prayer himself).
This is what I think and I think this is the safer position. I don't think someone who says "yaa mohammad" has committed a major shirk though. However I see no benefit in it and it's best to avoid it.
Good point, it boils down to tawassul is a fiqh issue(is it right or wrong, beneficial or worthless, halal or haram etc) and not a aqeedah issue(theology) since the person doing the tawassul does not believe the person he is asking has any power of his own but simply can somehow hear him and request God on his behalf. Since we do not know what state of mind a person is when he is dead, we really don't know the answer to whether tawassul is of benefit or a waste of time, but I agree it has nothing to do with the shirk talked about in the Quran.