Regarding tawassul (intercession)
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer. While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
Just because no one agrees with your "tawssul" theory as not a kind of shirk, you haste in labelling people as confused and as having their own interpretation? Come on, we are here to learn and benefit from each other, so we must have our different understandings. Every one of us has a prior text, be it sunnism, shiism, atheism, judaism, christian(ism)...and we are trying to get rid of this luggage. While doing so, different understandings come up. This is quite healthy. This is change, and unless you change what you have been doing you can't advance. God orders us to change when we find that we are stagnant and not moving forward.
And AhmedBahgat
Salaam(me again)
This is a very good detailed post. I hope you always engage in serious fruitful discussions.
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And AhmedBahgat
Salaam(me again)
This is a very good detailed post. I hope you always engage in serious fruitful discussions.
Hello Samia
No worries, let's cross our fingers to get an answer from our sunni brothers though, I'm waiting for months to be honest, I will still welcome to be proven wrong using the Quran by anyone
Salam
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Hello
I agree, that is why we have to stick to the LITERAL meaning of the Quran unless there is a compelling reason not to do so
I totally agree
I say, its confusion for all
I'm not a Quran aloner though, you may conisder me a sunni like you, in fact this is how I'm preceived on this web site, so let's make this discussion from a sunni to a sunni, can you please reply to my long thread?
I actually posted it on a clear cut sunni forum www.islammessage.com and yet to have an answer, I encouraged them to prove me wrong and you are very welcome to do so
take care
Ok,
First of all relying on the Quran for the verses about shirk would be in my book a mistake. Why?
Because unlike the Arabs, we do not know what shirk is. So we read the verses and we think we know whats been said. This is the problem when you take verses addressing the pagans and try to interpret it when it is more better to read this verses to a polytheist and ask him what does it mean. I will only try to explain how I understand them. First it is very important to understand why I posted the Reza Aslan article from his book, No God but God. It is because their were different types of religions in the Arabian peninsula. Unlike the Christians or Jews the Arabs had no scriptures and former religious heirarchy and dogma. So people have different gods and had different religious mythology. So the Quran is difficult to understand in this regard without understanding what are those different beliefs. There were many gods the Arabs worshiped and they varied with each other. The 3 greates were the Allat, The Uzza and the Manat. But there were also hundreds of gods in the Ka'ba representing various tribes and regions and stratum of the Arabian peninsula.
What is shirk can be best understood by studying the religions of the world and then understanding what the Quran is saying. The Arabs lived and practiced shirk and understood what the Quran is saying.
Another thing is when you quote the Quran about a subject(such as shirk) its best first to look at all the verses in the Qurn about shirk and all the conversation the pagans made in the Quran. Hint, about their using the defense of ancestors. Don't assume that they did not know what they were doing was wrong or had no sense and logic to it, but indeed it was ancestorial pride that kept them refusing the Quran. Others believed in what they had, others were skeptical but kept it inside them while others found the Quranic message the same as the Jews and Christians ( stories of the older generations) as they called it. Hence the concept of an after life for many was unbelievable. So this is complex and the Quran is speaking to a tribal society that had no formal structure when it came to religion. I believe this is the reason why this confusion is taking place. A person of a hindu or budhist or shinto or an animist will understand those verses so why don't you let them explain it to you.
It is the belief that one deity alone can not be capable of maintaining this universe and answering all these prayers and he needs help like a CEO needs managers to run a business. Or since we can't see God we will give a representative here on Earth where we can see him and worship that and this representative will be somehow connected to God like the Pharoah or shintoism does(emperor). Many Christians have the same as we know with Jesus.
Just my 2 cents, but I advice you is first study the world's religions and the Arab paganism before trying to intepret these verses.
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Hello Mate
Well I'm an Arab and was fed all the history you can imagine since I was a baby in Cairo schools untill I was 24 then left Egypt
Anyway, can you please reply directly to the verses and what I said?, what you have said in your last comment meant the least to me (no offence), just hit it head on and show me what you mean by studying the Arab paganism and the world religions within the context of the Quran to understand what Shirk means
Thanks
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Hello Mate
Well I'm an Arab and was fed all the history you can imagine since I was a baby in Cairo schools untill I was 24 then left Egypt
Anyway, can you please reply directly to the verses and what I said?, what you have said in your last comment meant the least to me (no offence), just hit it head on and show me what you mean by studying the Arab paganism and the world religions within the context of the Quran to understand what Shirk means
Thanks
It means, excuse me, that your understanding of these verses according to me is wrong.
And its wrong because you do not understand shirk.
When you say the polytheist will say we were not practicing shirk on judgement day it does not mean they did not know what they were doing is shirk, this is an argument to say the Muslims today are also practicing shirk but are not aware. If its that read the Quran and see if the Quran thinks they are simply just ignorant and don't know what they are doing. All these prophets came and told the people, and you are telling me they are not aware of what they are doing.
Of course they are going to say were were not associating partners with God when hell is right front of them. You are not analyzing these verses properly. You will do the same if hell is in front of you. These people never believed there will be a judgement day and took religion as a joke. Why should you take it serious if you believe nothing will come out of it anyways. Many of them probably were just a bunch of atheist following traditional rituals. You have to understand the psychology of judgement day. I found your translation very simplistic and I think you need to acquaint yourselves with the mindset of a polytheist to understand these verses. Many of the time people will throw lies to defend their heritage, there are countless of examples in the Quran about that.
As far as making halal and haram, its about as I said not having any scriptures but making stuff up. The Arabs had no scriptures, yet made all these things up and said about God what they knew not.
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What do you mean a thief is also a mushrik, don't you think you are applying the same wahhabi concept of the saved sect. That 95% of the muslims are deviants and astray and practicg idol and following jewish or pagan or zoroastrian rituals and just a small community is on the right path. Is this not the same logic we saw from the wahhabi, where they are always saying that only they are on the stright path and the rest of the Ummah has gone astray one way or the other. Just like you use shirk, they use shirk, and just like they use bida' you use bida' also with the intended result is other than a few everyone else is lost.
No i am not applying any of wahhabi concepts. In fact I am unfamiliar with any of wahhabi concept.
The wahhabi, sunnis, shias and other sectarian groups usually posses a "holier than thou" attitude, they think in a boolean terms of logic (TRUE/FALSE). While in reality the case is more often "fuzzied" thus if we want to "judge" the morality of a person we can find that he or she is 20% guided, 10% Shirk, 60% muslims etc. (This is just an example of non-boolean representation of things)The people of the book is often called a MUSHRIK in the Quran, (while on another verse, there are also a reference that some of them are actually a Mukmin). The ratio of SHIRK of every people is actually not the same. There are those who are murderer, adulterer, idol worshipper, envier of other people's belonging and there are also some Jews who abandon the sabbath day. And also there are also a murderer who repent. (THus he was SHIRK-ing from God's commandment and then repent / back to upholding the commandment).
Thus you and I and them actually posses some SHIRK quality in ourselves, although the rate/ratio/level of SHIRK-ness is varied. And that's why God set certain tolerance limit.
In the Quran you can read of an example of the one who has transgress all tolerance limit is The Firawn. In Firawn personality you can find that he declare himself to be God, murder many people, steal from his own people and many other attributes of badness. Thus Firawn is a MUSHRIK beyond the limit and that's why God sent a messenger named Moses to him to convey an "ultimatum message".
Repent or be destroyed...Salam / Peace
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It means, excuse me, that your understanding of these verses according to me is wrong.
Hello
Firtsly the Quran tells you "If you are greeted, you should reply with a better one or at least the same greeting", does not your hadith say the same?
And its wrong because you do not understand shirk.
Fair enough, I hope you do understand what shirk is and explain it to me.
When you say the polytheist will say we were not practicing shirk on judgement day it does not mean they did not know what they were doing is shirk,
So they will be lying to Allah on the JD to find a way out?, do you think on that day they can deliberately lie?
this is an argument to say the Muslims today are also practicing shirk but are not aware.
Most certainly are, didn't you see the photo with the two names next to each other?, well if you go to most mosques in Egypt you will find that they only talk about the dead Mohammad and hardly talk about the ever lasting Allah, would not that be shirk?
If its that read the Quran and see if the Quran thinks they are simply just ignorant and don't know what they are doing. All these prophets came and told the people, and you are telling me they are not aware of what they are doing.
Sorry, what was that?, you got me confused with this one, what the dead prophets have to do with it right now?
Of course they are going to say were were not associating partners with God when hell is right front of them.
Hmm, so what you are saying that they will lie on that day, see they know they were Mushriks but they will lie and say to Allah that they never did, does not add up to me, so what make you think that Allah will allow them to lie on that day?, or should I say, what make you think that after seeing the truth they will be trying to coverup a crime with another crime knowing well that Allah knows everything inside out on that day of truth?
You are not analyzing these verses properly.
How about you analyse them and educate me? please dont be lazy, try to work hard as I do if you are serious
You will do the same if hell is in front of you.
Really?, well what you say is nothing but conjectures, yet on someone else behalf, let me tell you if I know that I'm a Mushrik and faced with Hell in front of my eyes, I will only say sorry and admit my guilt, I won't coverup a crime with an excuse that is also a crime (lie) knowing that Allah must know that I will be lying, do you get it mate?
These people never believed there will be a judgement day and took religion as a joke
Excuse me, 12106 clearly talks about those who believe in Allah, in fact 28 is also telling us about those who claim to believe in Allah and the JD and yet they are not believers, please read 28-20 and 12106
. Why should you take it serious if you believe nothing will come out of it anyways.
Again, those who believe in Allah, must believe that something is coming out of it, please try to be logical, the verses clearly tell us that those Mushrikoon and Kafiroon claim to believe in Allah and the Last Day
Many of them probably were just a bunch of atheist following traditional rituals.
I have never seen an atheist who claims to believe in Allah, who are you fooling exactly
You have to understand the psychology of judgement day.
Sure, here is an anatomy of Jahannam Anatomy of Jahannam
I found your translation very simplistic
LOL, why I have to make it complicated?
On the other hand what do you mean by MY TRANSLATIONS?, if you mean the English verses then sorry they are not mine rather Shakir (mostely) or others, but if you mean my walkthrough, then I say what the literal meaning says unless there is a compelling reason not to take literally, I also avoid most conjectures EXACTLY AS Allah ordered me to do in the Quran, (do you know that verse?) but if you want explaining the Quran verses to be a complicated process full of plenty of fairy tales stories that are nothing but conjeectures then be my guest, I won't, obvioulsy what your Ummah is doing as you do is not working, or is it?
and I think you need to acquaint yourselves with the mindset of a polytheist to understand these verses.
LOL, no I won't do that, I know well what a polytheist is, I dont need to live his life, I don't think we need a master degree or some rocketr science to understand what a polytheist is
Many of the time people will throw lies to defend their heritage,
Would that apply to me and you?
there are countless of examples in the Quran about that.
Yep, it happens a lot in this life, I might have done it myself when i was a teen some 20 years ago, but the question is, can we deblibrately lie to Allah on the JD? can you please answer this question
As far as making halal and haram, its about as I said not having any scriptures but making stuff up. The Arabs had no scriptures, yet made all these things up and said about God what they knew not.
Is that all what you have to say regarding the Halal and Haram?
Thanks
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There are two types of shirk major and minor. If you believe that there are two gods, one creating the good and one creating the bad, then you have committed a major shirk. If you believe that there is one god who is the creator of all things but there are other lesser gods that help him in governing the world, then you have committed a major shirk. If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
About tawassul
If you ask a righteous person who is alive to pray for you, that's fine and nothing wrong with that. You can ask your parents to pray for you or your friends or your congregation to pray for your health, etc.
If you go to a grave of a dead person and ask him who is dead to pray for you, then you are being silly because it's like you are talking to somebody who is sleep. In fact you are in a position to pray for him!If we want something from god (such as forgiveness for our sins) it's best that we pray directly to Him. Praying to any other being means we believe they hear us but they can't hear us because they are not all-hearing. Only God is the all-hearing (as-samee'.
Prophet never taught his companions to make tawassul to him after he passed away. The only evidence (the story of the blind man) fails to persuade me because in that story prophet is alive and aware of the blind man's prayer (well he taught him the prayer himself).
This is what I think and I think this is the safer position. I don't think someone who says "yaa mohammad" has committed a major shirk though. However I see no benefit in it and it's best to avoid it.
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Salaam hajirfm
There are two types of shirk major and minor. If you believe that there are two gods, one creating the good and one creating the bad, then you have committed a major shirk. If you believe that there is one god who is the creator of all things but there are other lesser gods that help him in governing the world, then you have committed a major shirk. If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
You did not define "the minor shirk", so I have a question
Which of the two shirks did God mean in all the verses where shirk, or its derivtives, was mentioned? Of course you do not have to mention them ALL, just one example of each kind of shirk.If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
If you go to a grave of a dead person and ask him who is dead to pray for you, then you are being silly because it's like you are talking to somebody who is sleep. In fact you are in a position to pray for him!
Just being silly? Am I not attributing to this dead person the "All hearing"? Am I attributing the "raziq"? "the all powerful"? "the knower of the unseen" (because to him, my world is the unseen)?
Ah! Thanks! You replied correctly
If we want something from god (such as forgiveness for our sins) it's best that we pray directly to Him. Praying to any other being means we believe they hear us but they can't hear us because they are not all-hearing. Only God is the all-hearing (as-samee'.
So, according to your definition, this is also a major shirk, not just "being silly".
This is what I think and I think this is the safer position. I don't think someone who says "yaa mohammad" has committed a major shirk though. However I see no benefit in it and it's best to avoid it.
Why? Isn't Muhammad a dead person? Whta's the difference between saying "ya Muhammad" or "ya Shadhaly" or "ya Ali" or "ya ...any-dead-person"?
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Salam everyone
Wait what? crossing fingers means that if you do this gesture you hope it will give you luck or hope. Right?
Hello
I'm after hope not luck
Salam
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Salam
Okay i see, because i always saw crossing fingers as hoping for luck.
Hello
Well, we still can consider ourselves lucky if we get a satisfying reply from a recognised shiekh or a mufti
Salam
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There are two types of shirk major and minor. If you believe that there are two gods, one creating the good and one creating the bad, then you have committed a major shirk. If you believe that there is one god who is the creator of all things but there are other lesser gods that help him in governing the world, then you have committed a major shirk. If you attribute one of the names of god to anybody else (like all-knowing, all-hearing, etc) you also have committed a major shirk.
About tawassul
If you ask a righteous person who is alive to pray for you, that's fine and nothing wrong with that. You can ask your parents to pray for you or your friends or your congregation to pray for your health, etc.
If you go to a grave of a dead person and ask him who is dead to pray for you, then you are being silly because it's like you are talking to somebody who is sleep. In fact you are in a position to pray for him!If we want something from god (such as forgiveness for our sins) it's best that we pray directly to Him. Praying to any other being means we believe they hear us but they can't hear us because they are not all-hearing. Only God is the all-hearing (as-samee'.
Prophet never taught his companions to make tawassul to him after he passed away. The only evidence (the story of the blind man) fails to persuade me because in that story prophet is alive and aware of the blind man's prayer (well he taught him the prayer himself).
This is what I think and I think this is the safer position. I don't think someone who says "yaa mohammad" has committed a major shirk though. However I see no benefit in it and it's best to avoid it.
Good point, it boils down to tawassul is a fiqh issue(is it right or wrong, beneficial or worthless, halal or haram etc) and not a aqeedah issue(theology) since the person doing the tawassul does not believe the person he is asking has any power of his own but simply can somehow hear him and request God on his behalf. Since we do not know what state of mind a person is when he is dead, we really don't know the answer to whether tawassul is of benefit or a waste of time, but I agree it has nothing to do with the shirk talked about in the Quran.