punishment of the grave?
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Peace all,
As everyone can see, there is no arabic word "qabl"/before in 4046, nor any word meaning "grave".
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peace all,
*On the day when Allah will raise them all together and iinform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things. 586
*On the day when every soul will find itself confronted with all that it hath done of good and all that it hath done of evil (every soul) will long that there might be a mighty apace of distance between it and that (evil). Allah biddeth you beware of Him. And Allah is full of pity for (His) bondmen.330
*Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter Paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.3185
330 clearly says that ONLY on the JUDGMENT DAY will EVERY SOUL FIND itself CONFRONTED WITH ALL that it hath done.
Every soul means every soul and that doesn?t exclude FIRON or his people.
Judgment after the punishment is?illogical??.it may go well with the lords of GUANTANAMO BAY prison?..but doesn?t seem to go well at all when it comes to the Lord of the day of judgment and the universe.
peace
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Peace bro Nadeem,
Thank you for the relevant signs. One of the signs given by you above contains something that was not highlighted but also proves the same point.
586 On the day when Allah will raise them all together and inform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
If they were being punished in the grave before they were raised, the punishment must not have hurt at all, BECAUSE THEY FORGOT IT !! P
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Peace bro Nadeem,
Thank you for the relevant signs. One of the signs given by you above contains something that was not highlighted but also proves the same point.
586 On the day when Allah will raise them all together and inform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
If they were being punished in the grave before they were raised, the punishment must not have hurt at all, BECAUSE THEY FORGOT IT !!
Thank you tanveer bhai for highlighting it...Good job
peace
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Peace all,
According to Lane's Lexicon
Ayn-Ra-Dad = to take place, happen, offer, present, show, propound, set before, give a hint, come against, propose, expose, review (troops), view, prepare. aruDa - to be broad, widened. arDun - goods, width. irDun - honour. urDatun -
Thus "yu3radoon" can also mean offered, presented.
Thus a better translation of 4045-46 would be
So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening;
And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
Offered to the fire is same as entering the fire.
Sis Samia, I know that bro Zenje and me are talking about 2 different things. Can you comment on my explanation and the translation above, if that can be a valid translation ?
This will eliminate the contradiction with 3652 without making any torture in grave an exception. 4046 talks about the Azaab of people of Firon morning and evening in Hell which will happen on the Day of Judgment.
Salaam Tanweer, all
I find the translation corretc. I think not only you and Zenje, but maybe me on one side and the others on the other side who are talking of different things!!
For me, torture is not that they were grilled in hell/fire, but that they know what they are getting. They did not believe that before, and live with peaceful mind. But not anymore since they die. Now the SEE the fire. This is what is expressed by "bad/worst torture". Then when they actually are sent to be grilled (on JD), this is what is called (the utmost/most severe torture). It is psychological torture, doubled by what they see of the distruction of their kingdom and the elevation of their enemies. I believe that this is an exception. God gave us three examples of what happens afterpeople die- Those who were killed in the cause of God
- Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers (not their people, as AB put it).
- All others, including good and bad people
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- Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers (not their people, as AB put it).
Hello Samia
Do you really speak Arabic?
The words in the verse are AL FIRON, i.e. the people of Firon
Who are you kiddin exacly? not me of course
Please stop misleading others because they think that you speak Arabic
Salam
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Peace AB,
Salam bro
and where exactly in the Quran it tells us that on the JD and the days after it we will have "Ghdwan wa Ashaian", you klnow like the salat time per day so based on your understanding the days after the JD includiing the JD must be simialr to our days, i.e. they must have Ghdwan wa Ashaian", is that what you are saying?
No. I am not assuming that the 'day' then is the same as now. Far from it. I think we both agree that there is a significant amount of 'time' between day of resurrection and day of heaven/hell. You said that these are two separate events. And I tend to agree. But then you use that argument to validate that this is in the grave. Just as you say it's not on JD (which, again, I agree), I say it's not in the grave for the same reason. So tell me why you think it's NOT before JD but after resurrection. Or do you believe that JD and Resurrection are the same day?
Peace Samia,
For me, torture is not that they were grilled in hell/fire, but that they know what they are getting. They did not believe that before, and live with peaceful mind. But not anymore since they die. Now the SEE the fire.
Just to clarify, when is this?... in the graves?
Thanks -
Peace AB,
Salam mate
No. I am not assuming that the 'day' then is the same as now.
Exactly becase the day we have now is based on the rotation of the earth around its axis infront of the sun, but on the JD all that is going to be replaced as you know, therefore Ghdwan WA Ashaian MUST BE IN THIS LIFE
Far from it. I think we both agree that there is a significant amount of 'time' between day of resurrection and day of heaven/hell.
Yep but ther is no Ghudwan Wa Ashaian, do you agree on that? or at least do you agree that Ghdwan Wa Ashaian are two differnt times in our earth day?
You said that these are two separate events. And I tend to agree.
Great, but it seem you are putting both events after the JD starts while the verse says the contrary, it is clear as light that the first event is before the Saa3a, this is obvious from the words "WA YAWM TAQUM AL SAA3A"
But then you use that argument to validate that this is in the grave.
Of course it has to be because of the following reasons
- this continues event must be before the JD because the words "Wa Yawm Taqum Al Saa3a"
- this continues event happens twice a day at two specific times "Gudwan wa Ashaian" and that has to be in this life
- this continues event can't be while they are alove therefor it has to be during their time in the grave
no question about it
Just as you say it's not on JD (which, again, I agree),
well the verse is talking about the Saa3a not really a day, i.e. the hour on an earth day when the JD starts
I say it's not in the grave for the same reason.
but if you agree that it is before the JD starts, then how come they see the fire twice a day while they are alive?
So tell me why you think it's NOT before JD but after resurrection. Or do you believe that JD and Resurrection are the same day?
Because the first event was stopped AT THE HOUR WHEN THE JD STARTS, "WA YAWM TAQUM AL SAA3A"
i.e. the day mentioned "Yawm" is our earthy days and in an hour on that earth day the JD will start and our earthy days will stop
Salam
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- Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers (not their people, as AB put it).
Salaam Samia, all
I agree with you sis, Al Firon doesn't mean his people/nation. According to Quran AL only means people who follow Firon. The woman of Firon wasn't among his AL. And also when Nuh said to God about his son that his son was among his Al, the God said NO he wasn't.
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Peace all,
The first part of 4046 is separate from the second part and both parts talk about the same event. The first part is a continuation of 4045.
So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening;
And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
The first part talks about the Azaab being in morning and evening. The second part talks about the same Azaab starting on the Last Day.
No one knows what the Day of Judgment will be like, so how can one say there will be no morning and evening thereafter ? Morning and evening here could also be metaphorical, or could be idiomatic for "all the time" or "the whole day".
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Hello All
Sounds like some suffer from a very low IQ
The people of Firon does not mean his family alone, ironically they contradicted themselves and said Al Firon are the ones who followed him
hahahaha
i.e. Al Firon = the people of Firon but does not have to be his family, i.e. the ones around him who bloody followed him and that is what I'm saying
I never identified a person within that people unlike others who did
They are still in denial, sounds like the grave punishment scares them so they want it to be not true
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Peace all,
1315 And to God prostrate all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.
The shadows do not disappear at noon or afternoon. Here "morning and evening" imply the whole daytime.
1961 The gardens of Eden, which the Almighty had promised His servants in the unseen. His promise must come to pass.
1962 They will not hear in it any nonsense, only peace. And they will have their provision in it morning and evening.Here morning and evening is clearly used for Heaven. Similarly, there could be morning and evening in Hell too.
These two examples from al-qur'aan destroy someone's "morning and evening" theory being only in the earthly life, and signifying only two times a day.
Notice the similar phrases used in 4045-46 and 1961-62 for Hell and Heaven
4045-46 So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening; And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
1961-62 The gardens of Eden, which the Almighty had promised His servants in the unseen. His promise must come to pass. They will not hear in it any nonsense, only peace. And they will have their provision in it morning and evening.
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Hello Samia
Do you really speak Arabic?
The words in the verse are AL FIRON, i.e. the people of Firon
Who are you kiddin exacly? not me of course
Please stop misleading others because they think that you speak Arabic
Salam
Salaam AB
The verse does not say "the people". This is the translation.
Now you tell me What do you understand by "the people of the Pharon"? And what do you understand by "al "?
The quraan explained who "al of the Pharon" are when it expalined that
854 "and we drowned al of the Pharon for they were wrong doers".
Who were drowned? His supporters/soldiers and Haamaan or his people?
The following verse says exactly who those "al" are
Verse 285-6 " And We wish to do a favour to those who are oppressed in the land (i.e banu israel) and make them rulers and make them the inheritors, and to establish them in the land, and We let Pharon and Haamaan ad their soldiers receive from them that which they feared".
Pharon et al were made to see all this while they are dead, because all this happened after they drowned.
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Hello All
The ones in denial fearing the grave torture are running like zebras trying hard to mix and match any verses to validate their flawed argument, we have seen an example above using a verse about paradise to tell us that the times Ghudwan wa Ashaian will be in the heaven, look again on his flawed argument and you will see that the verse about heaven never mentioned both times, only one, the verse said about heaven ?Bukratan wa Ashayan?, Not Ghudwan Wa Ashaian as we have seen in the verse about the grave punishment, let me now show you that the two times Ghudwan and Ashaian are in this life
And do not drive away those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening, they desire only His favor; neither are you answerable for any reckoning of theirs, nor are they answerable for any reckoning of yours, so that you should drive them away and thus be of the unjust.
(52)
-> See ? ?, i.e. ? And do not drive away those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening,?, can you see the words ?Be Al Ghadati Wa Al Ashai??,
And withhold yourself with those who call on their Lord morning and evening desiring His goodwill, and let not your eyes pass from them, desiring the beauties of this world's life; and do not follow him whose heart We have made unmindful to Our remembrance, and he follows his low desires and his case is one in which due bounds are exceeded.
(2
-> See ? ?, i.e. ? And those who call on their Lord morning and evening?, can you see the words ?Be Al Ghadati Wa Al Ashai??,
Now letls compoare it with 4046
(46)
-> See ? ?, i.e. Ghudwan and Ashain are time events in this very life, not in heaven as the desperate are trying hard to tell us nor on the JD as some fake messengers think of it
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk1.gif
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Peace all,
If "3ashiyyan" can only be in this life, how come there is "3ashiyyan" in heaven (1962) ?
Just like there can be "bukratan wa 3ashiyyan" in Heaven (1962), there can be "ghuduwwan wa 3ashiyyan" in Hell.
"Bukratan" means the same as "ghuduwwan" by the way. The "3ashiyyan" is exactly the same in both. This makes it undisputable that both Hell and Heaven can have morning and evening.
In the following signs, "bukratan" is also used for the earthly life, but that does not mean that there can be no "bukratan" in heaven (1962).
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at morning (bukratan) and evening.
3342 And glorify Him morning (bukratan) and evening.
489 So that you may believe in God and His messenger, and that you may support Him, honor Him, and glorify Him, morning (bukratan) and evening.
7625 And remember the name of your Lord morning (bukratan) and evening.
The word "ghuduwwi" is used for the same exact meaning as "bukratan" in the following signs
7205 And remember your Lord within yourself, in humility and in reverence; and without loudness in words, during the morning (ghuduwwi) and the evening. And do not be of the careless ones.
2436 In sanctuaries that God has allowed to be raised and His name mentioned in them. He is glorified therein morning (ghuduwwi) and evening.
All these signs are referring to the SAME glorification and remembrance of The God at the same exact times by the usage of "bukratan" and "ghuduwwi", which proves that "bukratan" and "ghuduwwi" have the same meaning of "morning" and are interchangeable.
This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that "morning and evening" can be in Hell and Heaven also.
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Salaam All,
I know this topic is more than a year old, but as I said, I am going through most threads in my own time to find the answers to my questions.
I hope AhmadBaghat is still with us.
Samia and Tanveer, this is proof that muslim scholars read words into quran using hadith of bukhary.
http//www.islamcvoice.com/play.php?catsmktba=1378&action=a3lan
Scroll to minute 10 and listen to how Tariq Suwaidan explains two verses using hadith.
'Bukhary said that Al-Naby said that this refers to '3athab al-qabr'. (Grave torture)'
There can be no torture before 'yaum Al-Hisab'. There would be no justice. Isn't that what 'our' world is based on. Good vs Evil, and Justice at the End.
Regards
Ramzi
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Salam Ramzi,
When we die (unless the person was a martyr) we will be in state of sleep. During this state, it is possible that the person would experience nightmares and terror if he was a bad person (i.e. the angels would be smacking the person`s soul).
This is how I would describe the punishment after death.
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Salaam Layth,
Thanks for your reply!
I remember being taught something along those lines in school.......
For every day after you die till Judgement Day, an angel will ask you at dawn
'Did you pray 'fajr' salat? If you did not, then you would be smacked hundreds of feet into the earth continuously until noon.
Then 'Did you pray 'Zohr' salat? If no, then the process repeated until 'Asr' ........ and so on.
Maybe the methodology is not 100% right but the principle of 'punishment in the grave' was still taught.
As I said before, at school I was too young to question anything. I am not saying that all what we were taught is wrong.... but I feel it contradicts the whole concept of JUDGEMENT DAY.....
I will continue reading to find my answers, but it seems the people that do believe in punishment in the grave rely on bukhary's hadith.
I read a couple of days ago, that after death and before JD, the soul remains suspended but intact until JD. Maybe it was an article on free minds.
During this state, it is possible that the person would experience nightmares and terror if he was a bad person
Can I please ask what your basis for this is?
Assuming you follow Quran alone, how did you come to that conclusion ('it is possible'??
Thanking you in advance if you decide to answer the two questions above
Regards
Ramzi
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Salam Ramzi,
Can I please ask what your basis for this is?
Assuming you follow Quran alone, how did you come to that conclusion ('it is possible'??
850 And if you could only see as the angels terminate the lives of those who have rejected, they strike their faces and their backs
Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire!4727 So how will it be when their lives are terminated by the angels, while striking their faces and their backs?
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Peace all,
I cant really say I know much about this topic, and no hard feelings but I think all you are saying here is wild guess. And than we argue endlessly who's wild guess is better.
Seeing this from Earth perspective, this punishment of the grave is something similiar to Guantanamo Bay- people are being punished but not judged yet.
If we think Guantanamo is violation of god given human rights, than punishment of the grave is a similar violation - therefore I dont believe it really exists, but thats just me.
