Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?

Samia

Salaam DArgento

Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. (These are "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne.&quot

I believe that the mistranslation started much earlier in the verse. The statement "Men are the guardian of women" is not a valid one it does not apply to all places, all times and all individuals. Moreover, this would mean that any man is the guardian of any woman, irrespective of his faith or manners. The following sentence is even more ambiguous "for what God favoured some of them over some". If this means the favour is mutual (they are both favoured over each other) why is it then a reason males are favoured over females? If it means (some men are favoured over some women), the outcome (all men are the guardians over all women) will be invalid.

It is also interesting that when it comes to women (who are not the subject of this verse, according to the traditional and common understanding) we are suddenly faced with the attributes of righteousness, which were supposed to be the attributes of the guardian not their subordinates. We would expect examples of the authority, not the subjects, as the case in the qur'aan.

So, is it really "all men are guardians over all women"? What about children? Who is their guardian? Men only?

I believe that all the misinterpretations started with this first word alrijaal, and subsequently alnisaa'. If we say that "all who walk the earth for work, and have what to spend on others are guardians over those who remain behind/disadvantaged/vulnerable ", we find that we have overcome the three problems cited above

It is applicable to every case, everywhere and all times.
no need to mention faith or manners it suffice that they work AND pay to the others who don't to be their guardians.
The problem of children is solved they are part of "alnisaa' "

In other words, alrijaal is a description of a kind of males or females, and alnisaa' also contains males and females. These meanings are used in the qur'aan.

The sentence that follows immediately is about the attributes of these authoritative people, alrijaal. It is interesting that the examples given for a good, God fearing kind of "rijaal", who keeps the secret of being the bread winner, and thus spend money without boasting about it is a woman, and also the example of some of "rijaal" who are arrogant and look down upon this vulnerable person is a woman. This is also a trend in the qur'aan God mentions two women as example of "believers mu'mineen (masculine plural)" , and also two women as example of "non-believers kafireen (masculine plural)".

This is my own understanding of the first part of this verse. My understanding of the second part is shared by many who post on this thread and do not accept the "beat them up" interpretation.

ILisa

Greetings DArgento and Samia,

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge on this subject with us.

God bless.

siki

I like Edip yuksel's understanding on this

"Does the Quran Permit Men to Beat Their Wives?

A famous (and controversial) passage in the Quran has brought about a great deal of misunderstanding about Islam. In Pickthal's translation, we are told that God offers the following advice to Muslim husbands about their wives

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for their support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

In M.H. Shakir's translation, we read

(A)nd (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them..

And here is the popular Yusuf Ali translation of the entire (much-disputed) verse

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Here is our translation of the same passage, with appropriate sidebar references to disputed passages

! Disputed passage

The traditional rendering is you may beat them.

Men take care of women since God has endowed some with qualities that differ in degree, and since men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God), and during the absence (of their husbands), they honor them according to God's commandment, even when alone in their privacy. As for those women who bring about in you a fear of disloyalty, you shall first advise them. Then (if they continue), you may desert them in bed. Then, (if they continue), you may leave them. If they obey you, (however,) then you must not do any wrong against them. God is Most High, Supreme. 434

COMMENTARY ON 434

"Verse 434 of the Quran orders believers to beat their wives; therefore, Islam is a male-dominant religion." Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, atheists, agnostics, and others. Personally, every time I read conventional translations of 434, I feel that something is deeply wrong. How could God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It appears to be in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage

Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think. (3021)

Obviously, these mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they tried to soften the word "beat" when they translate the verse 434. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parenthesis after "beat," adding the word (lightly). This insertion does not appear in the Arabic text; it serves as a kind of apology for his translation of the surrounding material. Rashad Khalifa, rather than questioning the orthodox translation of the word, demonstrates his discomfort with his own version of orthodox translation by an implausible argument in the footnote and a contradictory subtitle before the verse "Do not beat your wife." (However, Rashad Khalifa does not duplicate the orthodox distortion of other key words in the verse).

Many orthodox translators have tried to beat around the bush when it comes to explaining this passage, and perhaps just as many have beaten a hasty retreat from those inquiring after the author's intention -- but all have found themselves, in the end, beaten by 434.

Now please reread the sentence above. You will see that the word "beat" has been used three times, conveying totally different meanings each time a verbal phrase meaning "avoid approaching directly" ("beat around the bush" a verbal phrase meaning "depart quickly" ("beat a hasty retreat&quot and the status of having been defeated ("beaten&quot. Interestingly, the Arabic verb traditionally translated by male translators as "beat" or "scourge" -- idribuhunne -- has numerous different meanings in Arabic, which is reflected by the Quran.

When I finished the Turkish translation (1991), this verse was on the top of my list to study carefully. Whenever I encounter a problem regarding the understanding of a Quranic verse, I remember 20114 and pray accordingly "Most Exalted is God, the only true King. Do not rush into (understanding) the Quran before it is revealed to you, and say, 'My Lord, increase my knowledge.'"

Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. (These are "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne.&quot In a previous book, "Errors in Turkish Translations" (Istanbul, 1992) I discussed the real meaning of these words and the motivation and reasons for mistranslating them.

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word

The main problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne," which has traditionally been translated as "beat them." The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary, you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. In fact, you will find that that list is one of the longest lists in your Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317

As you see, in the Quran alone we can attest to the verb "DaRaBa" having at least ten different meanings. "DaRaBa" has also other meanings that are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in modern Arabic, you do not print money--you "DaRaBa" money. You do not multiply numbers--you "DaRaBa" numbers. You do not cease doing work--you "DaRaBa" doing work. In Turkish, we have many verbs similar to the Arabic DaRaBa. In English, we have two verbs that are almost equivalent to "DaRaBa". These are "strike" and "beat." Consider, for the sake of comparison, that Webster's Dictionary gives fourteen different meanings to the verb "to strike," and eight to the verb "to beat"! (One strikes a match, strikes a deal, strikes an opponent, strikes gold, goes "on strike" against an unfair employer; one beats another team, beats out a rhythm, beats a retreat, and so on.)

Finding the Appropriate Meaning

Whenever we encounter a multi-meaning word in the Quran and this is a frequent occurrence -- we must select the proper meaning (or meanings) given the context, the Arabic forms, the context, the usage of the same word elsewhere in the Quran, and a certain amount of common sense. For instance, if one were to translate "DaRaBa" in 1317 as "beat" (as one could conceivably do), the meaning would be ridiculous

. . . God thus beats truth and falsehood... (1317)

A more sensitive rendering of the context, however, yields a better translation

God thus explains truth and falsehood... 1317

Another example of mistranslation of "DaRaBa" can be found in the translation of 3844. Almost all the translations inject a rather silly story to justify their rendering of the passage. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the first portion of this verse, which is about Job

And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith and break not (the oath). (3844)

Yusuf Ali, in the footnote, narrates the traditional story "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant."

However, without assuming the existence of this strange, male-viewpoint story (which has no other reference in the Quran), we can translate the verse as

! Disputed passage

The traditional rendering is Now, take grass in your hand and strike her with it and do not break your oath.

"Now, you shall travel the land to fulfill your pledge (to deliver the message of God)." We found him steadfast. What a good servant! He was a submitter. - 3844

Another Take on 434

In keeping with the translation we have used in 3844, we translate the controversial "beating" portion of 434 as "leave her." (Literally, the phrase might also be rendered "strike them out," meaning, in essence, "separate yourselves from such wives.&quot

Additionally, the word "Nushuz" which is generally translated as "opposition" in 434, has another meaning. If we study 434 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as embracing a range of related ideas, from "flirting" to "engaging in an extramarital affair" indeed, any word or words that reflects the range of disloyalty in marriage. The clue is the phrase before "Nushuz," which reads ". . . they honor them according to God's commandments, even when alone in their privacy." This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life, and helps us to make better sense of what follows.

Interestingly, the same word, "Nushuz," is used later in the same chapter, in 4128 but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands, not wives, as it was in 434. In our view, the traditional translation of "Nushuz", that is, "opposition" will not fit in both contexts. However, the understanding of "Nushuz" as marital disloyalty, in a variety of forms, is clearly appropriate for both 434 and 4128.

A Coherent Understanding

When we read 434, we should not understand "idribuhunne" as "beat those women". We should, instead, remember that this word has multiple meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with marital disloyalty on the part of a wife. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior, the husband should begin to address the problem by giving advice. If this does not work, he should stop sleeping in the same bed and see if this produces a change in behavior. And if there is still no improvement in the situation, the husband has the right to compel a separation.

The Quran gives analogous rights to women who must deal with disloyal husbands (412; this is in accordance with the principle that women have "similar" rights to men in such situations, as stated clearly in 228. These would hardly be "similar" rights if women had to suffer physical beatings for marital disloyalty, and men did not!

Beating women who are cheating and betraying the marriage contract is not an ultimate solution, and it is not consistent with the promise of equitability and comparable rights that appears in 228. (This is an important consideration, because the Quran proclaims, and Muslims believe, that it is utterly free from inconsistencies.) But "striking out" disloyal wives that is, separating from them -- is consistent, and it is the best solution. It is also fair."

http//www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm

Edip yuksel. I respect and value his opinions , the most, of all the islamist/ quranist scholars, and am a great admirer of him. I read this article written by him a long time ago.

Few times , that i had been disappointed (by him) , includes this one.

peace

siki

Elke

Peace siki,

i really start wondering. What kind of evidence for not beating wifes are you looking for ?
May be you just want to stick to beating ?

Pro and con arguments have been presented, and i do not believe that one absolute truth can be established in the minds of people. There always is a part of what one wants to believe...

elke

siki

peace elke

Traditionlist understanding has always been "Beating/hitting/striking of this verse. when some new understanding has to be used as a replacement , it has to make sense/fit in every possible way. I am afraid, that the "proves" presented till now, do not seem like a better replacement, linguistically/grammatically, though one may consider them to be better aligned with women's status at present.

sister!,, despite my best tries , i am unable to digest these imperfect replacements.

peace

siki

unknownuser

Salam Elke,

Some people just want to follow their desires and egos rather than following God and being just. That is why they will never be able to understand or accept the best meaning of His verses. That could be the only explanation.

4135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.

548 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

577 Say "O followers of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system other than the truth, and do not follow the desires of a people who have been misguided before, and they misguide many; and they strayed from the right path."

Salam

Elke

Peace siki,

what about the "traditionalist" understanding ? Does it have to make sens in every way too? Does beating make sense ? I'm addressing you, your view of the world, your view of gender relations, not linguistics...

Peace platinum,

yours is a very good post because it really shows the issue as it can also be turned around in one way or the other depending on who's holding the gun...
;D
But i get your point

lk

Samia

Salaam

If someone cannot accept any meaning for "daraba" other than "to beat, strike" as a punishment, I have no problem with that. I would just like to see how they can put up with the fact that "the men" in this verse, unlike "the women", are not described as being righteous or fair, or even believing in God, yet they are given the right to define what constitutes nishouz (which could just be that the wife is a qur'aan aloner ), and execute the punishment with unlimited strikes and directed to any part of her body with any instrument they find in their way or just their bare hands and "shod" feet...the verse does not explain this beating any further.

I would also like to see how they will make this understanding fit the system of God in punishment, which requires verified evidence proving the guilt, details the means and number, if applicable, of the type of punishment, and shows the irrelevance of gender in the application of punishment for the same guilt. Remember that God does not change his method "sunnah".

I really don't care what daraba means. I am certain of what it does not mean punishment by beating.

Ghulam_Rasool

Salaam

If someone cannot accept any meaning for "daraba" other than "to beat, strike" as a punishment, I have no problem with that. I would just like to see how they can put up with the fact that "the men" in this verse, unlike "the women", are not described as being righteous or fair, or even believing in God, yet they are given the right to define what constitutes nishouz (which could just be that the wife is a qur'aan aloner ), and execute the punishment with unlimited strikes and directed to any part of her body with any instrument they find in their way or just their bare hands and "shod" feet...the verse does not explain this beating any further.

I would also like to see how they will make this understanding fit the system of God in punishment, which requires verified evidence proving the guilt, details the means and number, if applicable, of the type of punishment, and shows the irrelevance of gender in the application of punishment for the same guilt. Remember that God does not change his method "sunnah".

I really don't care what daraba means. I am certain of what it does not mean punishment by beating.

Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullah,
Assalaatu wa salaam ya Rasoolullah

Allah Taala has given us a fairly good system of judgment for our circumstances, but they are not fool proof, and they aren't meant to be. It is true, a husband can abuse this injunction and unfortunately his wife will suffer for it. Such a person will be accountable before Allah at the Day of Decision.

But there are other examples of this in the Holy Quran. For example, when it comes to adultery, if a husband has witnessed his wife committing adultery, he must bear witness four times, and the fifth oath is when he invokes the wrath of Allah if he is lying. Now if the wife does not confess to her crime (accuses her husband of lying), than she will testify four times that she is innocent, and the fifth time invoke the curse of Allah if she is lying. So if she does this, despite being an adultress, her worldly punishment will be averted, but Allah Taala, who is the All-Knowing and Judge, He will punish her in the next world. So the justice system cannot be 100% perfect in this world, but it is designed in such a way to be closest to perfection considering our human limitations.

Jazakum Allah.

Jack

peace siki

then to you the quran is a male-dominant scripture?

jonny_k

Peace all specifically "hajirfm" and "siki",

As you might have noticed i took some time off the forum. As to "siki" and "hajirfm". First "hajirfm" you said that abandoning women for how long and tht GOD shldve provided a timing? Well are you aware of the following verse
Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
Now wht does this 2nd part mean according to you? Does GOD magiclly intervene and take her out? Or is it tht GOD wants rational ppl to employ the scientific method, psycholoigically evaluate the woman's state of mind and then decide? I believe from referencing to the rest of the Quran where it asks us to look at the signs in the universe and think tht the latter is the case. Thts exactly the prob with you hadithists. You go to nonensible hadith to find out wht GOD means while we use the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.
As to "siki" NO the word cannot mean "strike". If it did then the verse wouldve been falsified because it would go AGINST KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS. You see theres a difference here. When theres a statment in the Quran which we dont know scientifically whther it is right or wrong as yet, meaning could be both, THEN it wldnt falsify the Quran BUT if we know for sure tht it is wrong and repeated tetsing has shown so THEN IT IS WRONG. In case of physical beating all over the world it has been examined tht it doesnt help the relationship IN THE LEAST. So if thts what the verse meant itd be UTTERLY FALSIFIED. PERIOD! GOD Bless!

Samia

Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullah,
Assalaatu wa salaam ya Rasoolullah

Allah Taala has given us a fairly good system of judgment for our circumstances, but they are not fool proof, and they aren't meant to be. It is true, a husband can abuse this injunction and unfortunately his wife will suffer for it. Such a person will be accountable before Allah at the Day of Decision.

But there are other examples of this in the Holy Quran. For example, when it comes to adultery, if a husband has witnessed his wife committing adultery, he must bear witness four times, and the fifth oath is when he invokes the wrath of Allah if he is lying. Now if the wife does not confess to her crime (accuses her husband of lying), than she will testify four times that she is innocent, and the fifth time invoke the curse of Allah if she is lying. So if she does this, despite being an adultress, her worldly punishment will be averted, but Allah Taala, who is the All-Knowing and Judge, He will punish her in the next world. So the justice system cannot be 100% perfect in this world, but it is designed in such a way to be closest to perfection considering our human limitations.

Jazakum Allah.

Salaam Yusha

If God's justice system is not 100% perfect, why bother apply His law? Human Law is enough.

You look at justice with a cross-eyed brain

The two cases are not even remotely related

Which is more likely to be called justice A criminal set free for lack of evidence or an innocent being punished in spite of lack of evidence?

God forbids us from giving the wicked any kind of authority...He will not do what He forbids us to do and give a nutter authority over another person.

jonny_k

Peace "siki",

show me one women who is willing to accept a gender biased commandment, i did come across one, and her name is Boost" Madam ! i am impressed bravo

JK- In defence of BOOST ill have to say that she clarly told me whilst chatting that "we should not obey this commandment(beating women) EVEN IF IT WERE FROM GOD". Thats what she said. Ofcourse shes just setup a pradox because when you know with high probability tht something is coming from the Supreme Intelligence or even an intelligence much higher than you, youd better obey it or you could be utterly destroyed not by the being itself but by processes setup by it. So BOOST needs to do more study and i stick by it, if the verse meant tht it wld be falsified but it doesnt as i n others have shown rpeatedly. GOD Bless!

siki

hmm I was wondering , where is the young JOhnny,after igniting the fire?

siki

siki

OH My Dear Sisters at this forum

I am past that stage in my marriage where i require devinne approval to sortout/beat up my wife, rathter at present, am more worried about the future safety of my three beloved daughters.

What we are doing here is not , what our upbringing/sentiments feel, as right, but what God thinks, is most suitable regarding one of its creations. I am bothered about what HE means by "IDRibuhunna" in this particular ayat , and hence it is very important that we analyse its application with absolute neutrality. I would rather annoy all of you! "My dear sisters" rather than "letting go of a "just opinion", and invite his curse/retribution.

I have evaluated this term in this ayah and deliberated all other meanings as a substitute, but i am afraid , striking/hitting still comes out to be at the top. Sisters i understand, and fully appreciate your feelings. But let me remind you that this one is not the only, of its kind. To name a few, "polygyne, inheritance, sex with MMA" etc . I am quite sure if i make a deliberate effort , i will be able to add a significant number to this list.

I have spent a reasonable amount of time in studying this subject, and i promise you that owing to the sensitivity of this issue, i shall carry out further in depth study , and shall get back to you with my opinion. And if, any biases? Remember , i have "Three pieces of my heart" to marry off. Till then, I am signing off,

God bless all of us

siki

aqua

I have written an article on verse 434 of the Qur'an, a verse which has commonly been misinterpreted to justify violence against women. I have created a website to publish this article www.quranverse434.com