Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
-
Hey JK if you donot mind, please read the verse, throughly not being impressed by or feeling guilty by Non-muslim propoganda
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For God is Most High, great (above you all).
-
Why "lightly" in brackets? Why should I not use my GOD-GIVEN right to beat the living pulp out of my wife? How dare you intervene with the Message of God.
-
I have four things that I'd like to say concerning this thread and how some people are going about it
First of all, the defintion of beating or striking Is Not the ONLY meaning given for the root word DaRaBa. I believe it says something about a person who will focus exclusively on that defintion, whether they are Muslim justifying them beating their wives or a non-Muslim sticking to that defintion to try and prove that the quran is a book of horror and crime.
Secondly, if DaRaBa had a Main meaning to focus on, I would think that it would be the defintion utilised most often in the dictionaries and lexicons of Classical Arabic. Based on my studies of DaRaBa in The Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar and Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, it appears that the definitions utilized most often are leaving/journeying/quitting something or walking away from a thing AND citing parables to illustrate examples of a point of view. If you have access to them, please also see Lisan Al 'Arab and Muheet-Al-Muheet.
Thirdly, there are Other Words in Arabic which categorically mean to beat, strike, hurt, inflict pain, etc. and nothing else. There are other words in Arabic which mean these things Primarily and Most Oftenly. For example, see the root word JaLaDa (of which a derivative is used in 242).
Lastly, a book is sometimes only as good as it's reader. Whatever disposition a person has will determine HOW he understands the quran. His moral convictions will determine what he will get from it and how he will interpet it. More importantly, it will determine which definitions of any given word he will gravitate to and seek to uphold. Having said that, I wish to remind everyone of 37 and how GOD has explained this situation to us in that particular verse.
Regards,
Damon. -
'A book is only as good as its reader'.........Never have truer words been spoken........ elektro We see what we THINK we see,not always what we SHOULD see........
-
Salaam all
(And last) beat them (lightly);
Why do we have this additional (lightly) when it is not there in the original verse? In fact, when this verb is used, it is demonstrated with force and mighty, and without mercy; plus it has to show what part to strike or with what, not just "strike/beat"
850 "And if you could see when the "malaa'ika" take the souls of those who disbelieved, they smite their faces and their backs..."
(same thing repeated in 4727)
812 "So strike above the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes"
47 4 "So when you meet the disbelievers smite the necks"
2793 "Then he turned upon them striking with force/the right hand"
These are all the examples in the qur'aan for this verb in the meaning the traditionalists allude to. Is God degrading women to this level? Mind you, there is no description of this husband in this verse as someone who is humble and worthy of the obedience of his wife, so it is an open licence to any husband, even a drunken, an arrogant, a schizophrenic... to smite and strike.
-
hajirfm-God is not playing games with us.
JK-GOD wants us to use the scientifc method in order to understand the Quran.
hehehe....what is that verse where God says if there were more than one gods there would have been confusion.
-
I have four things that I'd like to say concerning this thread and how some people are going about it
First of all, the defintion of beating or striking Is Not the ONLY meaning given for the root word DaRaBa. I believe it says something about a person who will focus exclusively on that defintion, whether they are Muslim justifying them beating their wives or a non-Muslim sticking to that defintion to try and prove that the quran is a book of horror and crime.
Secondly, if DaRaBa had a Main meaning to focus on, I would think that it would be the defintion utilised most often in the dictionaries and lexicons of Classical Arabic. Based on my studies of DaRaBa in The Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar and Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, it appears that the definitions utilized most often are leaving/journeying/quitting something or walking away from a thing AND citing parables to illustrate examples of a point of view. If you have access to them, please also see Lisan Al 'Arab and Muheet-Al-Muheet.
Thirdly, there are Other Words in Arabic which categorically mean to beat, strike, hurt, inflict pain, etc. and nothing else. There are other words in Arabic which mean these things Primarily and Most Oftenly. For example, see the root word JaLaDa (of which a derivative is used in 242).
Lastly, a book is sometimes only as good as it's reader. Whatever disposition a person has will determine HOW he understands the quran. His moral convictions will determine what he will get from it and how he will interpet it. More importantly, it will determine which definitions of any given word he will gravitate to and seek to uphold. Having said that, I wish to remind everyone of 37 and how GOD has explained this situation to us in that particular verse.
Regards,
Damon.Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran? Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete.
You people claim to be smart and following logic and reason but you are only following your conjectures. Your faith is weak and you can't accept what God has sent down so clearly. So you have started to misinterpret what Quran says to satisfy yourselves. You only fool yourselves. This is what the jews and christians did and you are following their footprints.
-
so if it came right down to it you would be ok with your sister's husband striking her?
Your logic is amazing. So if something doesn't feel good to you, you reject it? What if your brother commits murder and he has to face the death penalty? Are you going to be against death penalty? You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings. If my sister's husband beats her, it will hurt my feelings but if that's going to save their marriage then be it. He has no right to beat her for just any reason. There must be a reason that is meaningful and defendable and secondly the beating can't be too harsh as all of scholars of Islam have established it shouldn't leave any marks. Finally if my sister thinks her husband is not being fair and goes beyond the limit and beats her for no reason then we go to the next level which is assigning referees from both families. And if that doesn't work then god has allowed divorce to take place after all these steps are taken.
-
Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran?
Almost any word has more than a meaning. The choice of the right meaning, even if it is not the "popular" clarifies the sentence. The ability to choose the right meaning has to do with logic and reasoning, not just the knowledge of the different meanings/aka usage of a dictionary. A legal document may contain very ordinary words, but if you think that they have the ordinary meaning, the sentence will be meaningless. Legal dictionaries do not just contain technical terms. They also contain very ordinary words where a remote meaning is always used. This is a legal verse. Every word should be scrutinised, otherwise the whole verse will have many holes, and will call for adding words to twist it towards a specific meaning.
Now, let's rephrase this verse applying "ordinary" meanings
All men are guardians over all women, because God gave some men strength and money (ability to spend). The women who are God fearing keep the secret, those whom you fear to be disobedient preach them, desert them in bed and beat them. if they obey you, seek no more annoyance.
The flows in this understanding
-
How can any man be the guardian of any woman, irrespective of whether he is a believer or not (the verse speaks of all men and all women)?
-
What about the other "some" who were not priviledged with strength nor money? Are they also gurdians?
- If yes, what is the use of mentioning these privileges in connection with gaurdianship?
- If no, this contradicts the main statement (All men are guardians over all women
This is just to show the flows in taking words at their very popular meaning from the very beginning of the verse.
Let's solve this and see who is gurdian over whom, maybe we wont need to look up a dictionary for the remaing part!!
-
-
peace samia
your above post is disappointing. Anyway , could you come up with a better meaning of the word , which fits in the context?
siki
Why were you disppointed? Can you elaborate?
I was responding to the principle of "ordinary words" and why we should use a dictionary for them. And I am giving an example of another "ordinary" word which, if used with its "ordinary" meaning" will throw us, from the beginning of the verse, into a contradiction. In my understanding, this word, and not "daraba" is the main problem.
Besides, I see that Damon gave all the other meanings of the word "daraba" from the dictionary, and which fit better in this context; and in my previous post, I gave all the occurances of the word "daraba" in the qur'aan. If you have more to say about this word, please do.
-
Peace,
I thought that we had already concluded years ago that Daraba does not mean "to beat" in the context of 434. To seperate or to leave would seem to be the more appropriate.
I'm studying Classical Arabic at the university level and I can assure you most linguists are in agreement with this explanation. Modern day Arabs do not speak the language spoken in the Qur'an.
-
Your logic is amazing. So if something doesn't feel good to you, you reject it? What if your brother commits murder and he has to face the death penalty? Are you going to be against death penalty? You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings. If my sister's husband beats her, it will hurt my feelings but if that's going to save their marriage then be it. He has no right to beat her for just any reason. There must be a reason that is meaningful and defendable and secondly the beating can't be too harsh as all of scholars of Islam have established it shouldn't leave any marks. Finally if my sister thinks her husband is not being fair and goes beyond the limit and beats her for no reason then we go to the next level which is assigning referees from both families. And if that doesn't work then god has allowed divorce to take place after all these steps are taken.
to hajirfm
i'm rather astonished at your logic . Except if your sister is a masochist and beating makes her happy. In this case, to each his own. How can beating a wife be logical, at least if no husband beating is prescribed for the same "offenses". You do as if you accept beating as a law from God, but it just fits your views.peace samia
your above post is disappointing. Anyway , could you come up with a better meaning of the word , which fits in the context?
siki
;D no comment
Quote from damon
Lastly, a book is sometimes only as good as it's reader. Whatever disposition a person has will determine HOW he understands the quran. His moral convictions will determine what he will get from it and how he will interpet it. More importantly, it will determine which definitions of any given word he will gravitate to and seek to uphold.
yes, i believe it comes down to this. and only god will judge us. damon, nice to have you back. Hope the family is fine.
peace all, lk
-
Peace
there was another significant point mentioned by Wakas some time ago, that 434 is a hypothetical situation
...I forgot to say that 434 is a hypothetical, i.e. "IF you fear...", thus if you choose "badger them" then this seems unfair, as they are being badgered for no apparent reason/offence. Furthermore, as far as I'm aware the notion of punishment prior to any crime being committed is unheard of in 'the reading'. I could be mistaken however, as I have not studied this aspect thoroughly. If it is correct however, then this would significantly reduce the likelihood of "badger".
it is here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12268.msg94949#msg94949
-
Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran? Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete.
You people claim to be smart and following logic and reason but you are only following your conjectures. Your faith is weak and you can't accept what God has sent down so clearly. So you have started to misinterpret what Quran says to satisfy yourselves. You only fool yourselves. This is what the jews and christians did and you are following their footprints.
To answer your question, the quran is a VERY CLEAR book to the honest and sincere believers. If it isn't a clear book to you (which it obviously isn't) well then....
As far as the rest of your post, where did I mention anything about Arabs and if they understand their own language or not??? But since we are on the subject, No todays Arab Does Not naturally understand Quranic Arabic more than I do and he too has to learn the Classical Arabic in order to understand The Quran.
I could honestly care less about your accusations of conjecturing, making things up to suit myself, blah, blah, blah.
Just because a couple of wanna be scholars a few hundred years ago say that we should interpet idribuhunna as beat them (based upon their well known Arab chauvinism towards women anyway) doesn't mean I'm going to listen to them and their garbage. 1736 advises me not to do that. You should give it a try my friend.
Regards,
Damon. -
Your logic is amazing. So if something doesn't feel good to you, you reject it? What if your brother commits murder and he has to face the death penalty? Are you going to be against death penalty? You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings. If my sister's husband beats her, it will hurt my feelings but if that's going to save their marriage then be it. He has no right to beat her for just any reason. There must be a reason that is meaningful and defendable and secondly the beating can't be too harsh as all of scholars of Islam have established it shouldn't leave any marks. Finally if my sister thinks her husband is not being fair and goes beyond the limit and beats her for no reason then we go to the next level which is assigning referees from both families. And if that doesn't work then god has allowed divorce to take place after all these steps are taken.
Sorry love, try again. What you wrote was utterly devoid of logic beyond belief. I should know, at one point I somewhat supported your view.
Let's get this right.
A religion of peace, and balances between good and evil, with a merciful God - check.
Kindness to your neighbour, your mother, and the milkman is not just a recommendation - it is law - check.
A punishment for the murderer that is EITHER death (which would cancel out the original crime) or compensation or even outright forgiveness - check
Beating/lashing prescribed for those who commit adultery/fornication - check
Beating (lashing, in some cases, since a thin stick, like a toothbrush is recommended - please do the physics calculations on pressure impulse as a function of surface area yourself and see if it is not "lashing" prescribed for your wife if you don't like her - Uh, what? Is your wife a whore? Using a similiar punishment indicates so. You should "daraba" yourself for marrying a whore. You treat your mother, father, brother, sister, well, everyone with kindness, but the wife, or in other words, the mother of your children, you can bitch-slap when it's "meaningful and reasonable", i.e. when she becomes a whore?
There is no comparison between the punishment for murder and the punishment for a misbehaving wife. The Quran sets out specific punishments for distinct acts of misbehaviour - murder, lewdness, fornication, theft, etc. So why the sudden approach in taking "daraba" to mean "to beat" when no specific misdemeanour is mentioned?
I smell the whiff of hadith-influenced thinking. Now, I'm sure you're going to have a hissy fit on this as you or someone similar did previously, but that is what I percieve, and it's based on evidence.
Show me where in the Quran it states that the beating on your wife must not be too harsh. If that word means "to beat", I will do it fully, thanks, no need for arbitrary restrictions when it pleases YOUR logic.
Now, how you handle situations between your sister and her husband is none of my business, but remember that if you do wrong and cause harm to her, and cause an asshole to prevail, you have God to answer to.
-
Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran? Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete.
You people claim to be smart and following logic and reason but you are only following your conjectures. Your faith is weak and you can't accept what God has sent down so clearly. So you have started to misinterpret what Quran says to satisfy yourselves. You only fool yourselves. This is what the jews and christians did and you are following their footprints.
hajirfm,
Greetings......please be careful about accusing people of following conjectures and not being able to accept something that is 'so clear'. Think about the evolution of language over time. For instance, if I say the word 'mouse' to you today. I'm sure you'd consider it a very ordinary and popular word and depending on the context, you'd be sure that what I stated was clear in its meaning. However, if we were discussing this word with 7th century English speakers, what 'mouse' 'clearly means' would open an entirely other can of worms that is surely not so very clear.
Do you get my drift?
This is the point that we are operating from--as I understand it.
Do you get the point??????