Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
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peace samia
your above post is disappointing. Anyway , could you come up with a better meaning of the word , which fits in the context?
siki
Why were you disppointed? Can you elaborate?
I was responding to the principle of "ordinary words" and why we should use a dictionary for them. And I am giving an example of another "ordinary" word which, if used with its "ordinary" meaning" will throw us, from the beginning of the verse, into a contradiction. In my understanding, this word, and not "daraba" is the main problem.
Besides, I see that Damon gave all the other meanings of the word "daraba" from the dictionary, and which fit better in this context; and in my previous post, I gave all the occurances of the word "daraba" in the qur'aan. If you have more to say about this word, please do.
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Peace,
I thought that we had already concluded years ago that Daraba does not mean "to beat" in the context of 434. To seperate or to leave would seem to be the more appropriate.
I'm studying Classical Arabic at the university level and I can assure you most linguists are in agreement with this explanation. Modern day Arabs do not speak the language spoken in the Qur'an.
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Your logic is amazing. So if something doesn't feel good to you, you reject it? What if your brother commits murder and he has to face the death penalty? Are you going to be against death penalty? You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings. If my sister's husband beats her, it will hurt my feelings but if that's going to save their marriage then be it. He has no right to beat her for just any reason. There must be a reason that is meaningful and defendable and secondly the beating can't be too harsh as all of scholars of Islam have established it shouldn't leave any marks. Finally if my sister thinks her husband is not being fair and goes beyond the limit and beats her for no reason then we go to the next level which is assigning referees from both families. And if that doesn't work then god has allowed divorce to take place after all these steps are taken.
to hajirfm
i'm rather astonished at your logic . Except if your sister is a masochist and beating makes her happy. In this case, to each his own. How can beating a wife be logical, at least if no husband beating is prescribed for the same "offenses". You do as if you accept beating as a law from God, but it just fits your views.peace samia
your above post is disappointing. Anyway , could you come up with a better meaning of the word , which fits in the context?
siki
;D no comment
Quote from damon
Lastly, a book is sometimes only as good as it's reader. Whatever disposition a person has will determine HOW he understands the quran. His moral convictions will determine what he will get from it and how he will interpet it. More importantly, it will determine which definitions of any given word he will gravitate to and seek to uphold.
yes, i believe it comes down to this. and only god will judge us. damon, nice to have you back. Hope the family is fine.
peace all, lk
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Peace
there was another significant point mentioned by Wakas some time ago, that 434 is a hypothetical situation
...I forgot to say that 434 is a hypothetical, i.e. "IF you fear...", thus if you choose "badger them" then this seems unfair, as they are being badgered for no apparent reason/offence. Furthermore, as far as I'm aware the notion of punishment prior to any crime being committed is unheard of in 'the reading'. I could be mistaken however, as I have not studied this aspect thoroughly. If it is correct however, then this would significantly reduce the likelihood of "badger".
it is here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12268.msg94949#msg94949
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Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran? Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete.
You people claim to be smart and following logic and reason but you are only following your conjectures. Your faith is weak and you can't accept what God has sent down so clearly. So you have started to misinterpret what Quran says to satisfy yourselves. You only fool yourselves. This is what the jews and christians did and you are following their footprints.
To answer your question, the quran is a VERY CLEAR book to the honest and sincere believers. If it isn't a clear book to you (which it obviously isn't) well then....
As far as the rest of your post, where did I mention anything about Arabs and if they understand their own language or not??? But since we are on the subject, No todays Arab Does Not naturally understand Quranic Arabic more than I do and he too has to learn the Classical Arabic in order to understand The Quran.
I could honestly care less about your accusations of conjecturing, making things up to suit myself, blah, blah, blah.
Just because a couple of wanna be scholars a few hundred years ago say that we should interpet idribuhunna as beat them (based upon their well known Arab chauvinism towards women anyway) doesn't mean I'm going to listen to them and their garbage. 1736 advises me not to do that. You should give it a try my friend.
Regards,
Damon. -
Your logic is amazing. So if something doesn't feel good to you, you reject it? What if your brother commits murder and he has to face the death penalty? Are you going to be against death penalty? You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings. If my sister's husband beats her, it will hurt my feelings but if that's going to save their marriage then be it. He has no right to beat her for just any reason. There must be a reason that is meaningful and defendable and secondly the beating can't be too harsh as all of scholars of Islam have established it shouldn't leave any marks. Finally if my sister thinks her husband is not being fair and goes beyond the limit and beats her for no reason then we go to the next level which is assigning referees from both families. And if that doesn't work then god has allowed divorce to take place after all these steps are taken.
Sorry love, try again. What you wrote was utterly devoid of logic beyond belief. I should know, at one point I somewhat supported your view.
Let's get this right.
A religion of peace, and balances between good and evil, with a merciful God - check.
Kindness to your neighbour, your mother, and the milkman is not just a recommendation - it is law - check.
A punishment for the murderer that is EITHER death (which would cancel out the original crime) or compensation or even outright forgiveness - check
Beating/lashing prescribed for those who commit adultery/fornication - check
Beating (lashing, in some cases, since a thin stick, like a toothbrush is recommended - please do the physics calculations on pressure impulse as a function of surface area yourself and see if it is not "lashing" prescribed for your wife if you don't like her - Uh, what? Is your wife a whore? Using a similiar punishment indicates so. You should "daraba" yourself for marrying a whore. You treat your mother, father, brother, sister, well, everyone with kindness, but the wife, or in other words, the mother of your children, you can bitch-slap when it's "meaningful and reasonable", i.e. when she becomes a whore?
There is no comparison between the punishment for murder and the punishment for a misbehaving wife. The Quran sets out specific punishments for distinct acts of misbehaviour - murder, lewdness, fornication, theft, etc. So why the sudden approach in taking "daraba" to mean "to beat" when no specific misdemeanour is mentioned?
I smell the whiff of hadith-influenced thinking. Now, I'm sure you're going to have a hissy fit on this as you or someone similar did previously, but that is what I percieve, and it's based on evidence.
Show me where in the Quran it states that the beating on your wife must not be too harsh. If that word means "to beat", I will do it fully, thanks, no need for arbitrary restrictions when it pleases YOUR logic.
Now, how you handle situations between your sister and her husband is none of my business, but remember that if you do wrong and cause harm to her, and cause an asshole to prevail, you have God to answer to.
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Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran? Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete.
You people claim to be smart and following logic and reason but you are only following your conjectures. Your faith is weak and you can't accept what God has sent down so clearly. So you have started to misinterpret what Quran says to satisfy yourselves. You only fool yourselves. This is what the jews and christians did and you are following their footprints.
hajirfm,
Greetings......please be careful about accusing people of following conjectures and not being able to accept something that is 'so clear'. Think about the evolution of language over time. For instance, if I say the word 'mouse' to you today. I'm sure you'd consider it a very ordinary and popular word and depending on the context, you'd be sure that what I stated was clear in its meaning. However, if we were discussing this word with 7th century English speakers, what 'mouse' 'clearly means' would open an entirely other can of worms that is surely not so very clear.
Do you get my drift?
This is the point that we are operating from--as I understand it.
Do you get the point??????
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Ah, reminds me of "gay", every pre-pubescent uses that as an insult, but it just means... happy.
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uh...
Yeah.
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hajirfm,
Greetings......please be careful about accusing people of following conjectures and not being able to accept something that is 'so clear'. Think about the evolution of language over time. For instance, if I say the word 'mouse' to you today. I'm sure you'd consider it a very ordinary and popular word and depending on the context, you'd be sure that what I stated was clear in its meaning. However, if we were discussing this word with 7th century English speakers, what 'mouse' 'clearly means' would open an entirely other can of worms that is surely not so very clear.
Do you get my drift?
This is the point that we are operating from--as I understand it.
Do you get the point??????
that's why we need the ahadith and the opinion of scholars to elaborate on these matters. But some closed-minded people don't want to even consider studying what those scholars have to say. They think they are too good to follow anybody's opinon and that's how they have come up with their own theories and conjectures. Ibn Kathir says regarding this issue
"means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe."This is how early muslims understood the word. Now 1400 years later for the first time in history some kids are telling us that that's not what God is saying. Can you imagine that for 1400 years muslims were unaware of what God was saying and then some people whose knowledge of arabic language equates that of a 6th grader are here to tell us what the verse is really saying. I take what Ibn Kathir says over what these people are saying in a heart beat. Because I know who Ibn Kathir was and I know how knowledgable he was and how respected his authority is while I don't know who are these guys with a laptop and a fake name. Do they even pray 5 times a day?
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Why were you disappointed? Can you elaborate?
Because you are better than that.
Your arguments in subject post were incorrect, because if we follow that line, one can come up with over a million objections, or "if and buts" against most of the verses/commandments in Qurancheers handshake
siki
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that's why we need the ahadith and the opinion of scholars to elaborate on these matters. Ibn Kathir says regarding this issue ...I take what Ibn Kathir says over what these people are saying in a heart beat. Because I know who Ibn Kathir was and I know how knowledgable he was?
Peace,
Without sounding too flippant or disrespectful, might I query did you know Ibn Kathir personally?
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I don't know who are these guys with a laptop and a fake name. Do they even pray 5 times a day?
hajirfm,
is that your real name ?
Do they need to "pray five times a day" as they need to "disciplin" their wifes? >D
How is a man disciplined ? According to the rules of moral contained in quran, my ex-husband should have been disciplined by me yes. I even used to abandon him in bed before i abandoned him completely. But may be you're right, had i beaten him up i might have saved our marriage...
Where is your logic brickwall
lk
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the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly.)What if he finds her "suckling" him to make him a mahram? Does he has the right to discipline her confused ?
Back to your message
"But if this person you dislike -or like- stepped with your wife in bed, you do not have the right to discipline her. Take the matter to the authorities".
Do you accept this additional quote, hajirfm? Does it ring any "qur'aanic" bell?
If the husband has only two options when he finds his wife in bed with another person
1- Do nothing
2- Take the matter to the authorities who will divorce you.How could he be given the right to discipline (aka smite/strike) her for FEAR OF DOING SOMETHING (That's she hasn't done it yet)?
No knowledge of Arabic is needed here...Just simple logic
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Dear DArgento
After going through plenty of articles and quite a few debates. In my opinion the traditional meanings of striking or hitting / beating, is still the most suitable in the context of this verse, allthough i am , and would be personally against it , but that is what the quran says , May be as a last resort , that might work on a few of a certain kind and saves a marriage . God knows his creation the best. I am desperately looking for a better explanation and most willing to accept an alternate suitable meaning, but till day, there is none.
peace
siki
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the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly.)the prophet is CLAIMED to have said that
5328 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
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Salam,
Since God knows that men are normally stronger than women, there is no reason for Him to tell men to beat their women as to inflict harm on the woman! Nor do I believe that God said beat them (lightly) - what would be the point in that? a woman is not a little kid that you can beat (lightly) on the hand for example and then she would be so-called disciplined!
If you edhreb on food you go on hunger strike. You edhred from work - you go on strike from work! I think similarly this edhreb word is meant to be referring to having a strike (edhrab) from the marriage or have a break!
This may make sense because having a break from the marriage can fix things whereas hitting your woman will not get you anywhere (except jail maybe).
Peace peace