Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
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Ah, reminds me of "gay", every pre-pubescent uses that as an insult, but it just means... happy.
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Yeah.
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hajirfm,
Greetings......please be careful about accusing people of following conjectures and not being able to accept something that is 'so clear'. Think about the evolution of language over time. For instance, if I say the word 'mouse' to you today. I'm sure you'd consider it a very ordinary and popular word and depending on the context, you'd be sure that what I stated was clear in its meaning. However, if we were discussing this word with 7th century English speakers, what 'mouse' 'clearly means' would open an entirely other can of worms that is surely not so very clear.
Do you get my drift?
This is the point that we are operating from--as I understand it.
Do you get the point??????
that's why we need the ahadith and the opinion of scholars to elaborate on these matters. But some closed-minded people don't want to even consider studying what those scholars have to say. They think they are too good to follow anybody's opinon and that's how they have come up with their own theories and conjectures. Ibn Kathir says regarding this issue
"means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe."This is how early muslims understood the word. Now 1400 years later for the first time in history some kids are telling us that that's not what God is saying. Can you imagine that for 1400 years muslims were unaware of what God was saying and then some people whose knowledge of arabic language equates that of a 6th grader are here to tell us what the verse is really saying. I take what Ibn Kathir says over what these people are saying in a heart beat. Because I know who Ibn Kathir was and I know how knowledgable he was and how respected his authority is while I don't know who are these guys with a laptop and a fake name. Do they even pray 5 times a day?
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Why were you disappointed? Can you elaborate?
Because you are better than that.
Your arguments in subject post were incorrect, because if we follow that line, one can come up with over a million objections, or "if and buts" against most of the verses/commandments in Qurancheers handshake
siki
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that's why we need the ahadith and the opinion of scholars to elaborate on these matters. Ibn Kathir says regarding this issue ...I take what Ibn Kathir says over what these people are saying in a heart beat. Because I know who Ibn Kathir was and I know how knowledgable he was?
Peace,
Without sounding too flippant or disrespectful, might I query did you know Ibn Kathir personally?
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I don't know who are these guys with a laptop and a fake name. Do they even pray 5 times a day?
hajirfm,
is that your real name ?
Do they need to "pray five times a day" as they need to "disciplin" their wifes? >D
How is a man disciplined ? According to the rules of moral contained in quran, my ex-husband should have been disciplined by me yes. I even used to abandon him in bed before i abandoned him completely. But may be you're right, had i beaten him up i might have saved our marriage...
Where is your logic brickwall
lk
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the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly.)What if he finds her "suckling" him to make him a mahram? Does he has the right to discipline her confused ?
Back to your message
"But if this person you dislike -or like- stepped with your wife in bed, you do not have the right to discipline her. Take the matter to the authorities".
Do you accept this additional quote, hajirfm? Does it ring any "qur'aanic" bell?
If the husband has only two options when he finds his wife in bed with another person
1- Do nothing
2- Take the matter to the authorities who will divorce you.How could he be given the right to discipline (aka smite/strike) her for FEAR OF DOING SOMETHING (That's she hasn't done it yet)?
No knowledge of Arabic is needed here...Just simple logic
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Dear DArgento
After going through plenty of articles and quite a few debates. In my opinion the traditional meanings of striking or hitting / beating, is still the most suitable in the context of this verse, allthough i am , and would be personally against it , but that is what the quran says , May be as a last resort , that might work on a few of a certain kind and saves a marriage . God knows his creation the best. I am desperately looking for a better explanation and most willing to accept an alternate suitable meaning, but till day, there is none.
peace
siki
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the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly.)the prophet is CLAIMED to have said that
5328 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
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Salam,
Since God knows that men are normally stronger than women, there is no reason for Him to tell men to beat their women as to inflict harm on the woman! Nor do I believe that God said beat them (lightly) - what would be the point in that? a woman is not a little kid that you can beat (lightly) on the hand for example and then she would be so-called disciplined!
If you edhreb on food you go on hunger strike. You edhred from work - you go on strike from work! I think similarly this edhreb word is meant to be referring to having a strike (edhrab) from the marriage or have a break!
This may make sense because having a break from the marriage can fix things whereas hitting your woman will not get you anywhere (except jail maybe).
Peace peace
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A question to those who support the meaning of punishment by striking and beating
1- What is the crime that calls for such a punishment?
2-Who decides that this (whatever you come up with) is a crime?
3- What about the wife's point of view?
4-Shouldn't there be someone to listen to both points of view to decide whether this is a crime or not? -
A question to those who support the meaning of punishment by striking and beating
1- What is the crime that calls for such a punishment?
2-Who decides that this (whatever you come up with) is a crime?
3- What about the wife's point of view?
4-Shouldn't there be someone to listen to both points of view to decide whether this is a crime or not?Of course its the responsibility of the court, and husband has no right beat his wife. No one can give any punishment to anyone only the court can do that.
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A question to those who support the meaning of punishment by striking and beating
1- What is the crime that calls for such a punishment?
2-Who decides that this (whatever you come up with) is a crime?
3- What about the wife's point of view?
4-Shouldn't there be someone to listen to both points of view to decide whether this is a crime or not?In addition to that, why is no specific misdemeanour mentioned for a punishment when every other time there has been a punishment, a specific act is described as deserving of it?
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hajirfm,
is that your real name ?
Do they need to "pray five times a day" as they need to "disciplin" their wifes? >D
How is a man disciplined ? According to the rules of moral contained in quran, my ex-husband should have been disciplined by me yes. I even used to abandon him in bed before i abandoned him completely. But may be you're right, had i beaten him up i might have saved our marriage...
Where is your logic brickwall
lk
You wouldn't have liked to live with a man that you have beaten. No woman would. If he was such a loser that needed to be disciplined by his wife, then you are better of divorcing him. I hope no children were involved though.
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What if he finds her "suckling" him to make him a mahram? Does he has the right to discipline her confused ?
Back to your message
"But if this person you dislike -or like- stepped with your wife in bed, you do not have the right to discipline her. Take the matter to the authorities".
Do you accept this additional quote, hajirfm? Does it ring any "qur'aanic" bell?
If the husband has only two options when he finds his wife in bed with another person
1- Do nothing
2- Take the matter to the authorities who will divorce you.How could he be given the right to discipline (aka smite/strike) her for FEAR OF DOING SOMETHING (That's she hasn't done it yet)?
No knowledge of Arabic is needed here...Just simple logic
The 3-step solution is there to protect the family from falling apart. If you find your wife in bed with somebody else then you can testify in court and they will be punished accordingly. The only way she can save herself from punishment is when she swears by god that she is innocent. Then the court will set her free but god will punish her to eternity (if she is a liar). I don't think there is anything confusing here. If you fear that your wife is being dishonest in her relationship with you then you follow the three steps. Most of the time it's just a misunderstanding and it is resolved by talking. Sometimes the wife needs some time to think for herself alone in bed and the case is resolved. Sometimes there is a need for a shock-therapy by beating her lightly and she comes to her senses and returns to her family and the case is resolved. If these steps don't work then they assign referees from both families and make agreements of how to conduct affairs after that. Finally if there is absolutely now way to save the marriage, then they get divorced. Which part of it is so unbelievable that the weak-hearted have to make up another meaning for 'dha-ra-ba'?
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Which part of it is so unbelievable that the weak-hearted have to make up another meaning for 'dha-ra-ba'?
The part that he has no right to beat/punish her when he catches her red handed in adultrey, but he can beat her IF HE FEARS that she might be nashez (what's this BTW?); i.e even before actually being nashez. Does this sound to you any kind of justice, let alone a divine one (to punish someone before they actually commit a crime)?
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Peace "Hajir" and "siki",
Lemme give you a simple example. The Quran uses a the word "sallu" also. So what does it mean according to the majority of Arabas or what does it most popularly mean. "to praise/bless" would be the answer. Although if you consult the dictionaries then youd find the most logical use to be "contact". Same is with "daraba". In science we dont go with popularity. It wld be our downfall. Just consider this example. In the US more than 60% ppl beleive the earth was created in the past 10000 yrs and much more believe in creationism covering both young and old eath creationists. Well science shows tht all of this is false. So there goes your popularity stuff. No my friends GOD wants us to use the scientific approach and the amazing thing is whilst we do tht as many here like "Damon", whom ive has many disagreements with in the past but on this i agree very much, and others have done, we come up with a very rational and sensible meaning as well. Moreover it is an established observed fact tht physical beating of the wife at any time only worsens the matter so if tht were really the meaning of the word then the Quran would be falsified. GOD Bless!