Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
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What if he finds her "suckling" him to make him a mahram? Does he has the right to discipline her confused ?
Back to your message
"But if this person you dislike -or like- stepped with your wife in bed, you do not have the right to discipline her. Take the matter to the authorities".
Do you accept this additional quote, hajirfm? Does it ring any "qur'aanic" bell?
If the husband has only two options when he finds his wife in bed with another person
1- Do nothing
2- Take the matter to the authorities who will divorce you.How could he be given the right to discipline (aka smite/strike) her for FEAR OF DOING SOMETHING (That's she hasn't done it yet)?
No knowledge of Arabic is needed here...Just simple logic
The 3-step solution is there to protect the family from falling apart. If you find your wife in bed with somebody else then you can testify in court and they will be punished accordingly. The only way she can save herself from punishment is when she swears by god that she is innocent. Then the court will set her free but god will punish her to eternity (if she is a liar). I don't think there is anything confusing here. If you fear that your wife is being dishonest in her relationship with you then you follow the three steps. Most of the time it's just a misunderstanding and it is resolved by talking. Sometimes the wife needs some time to think for herself alone in bed and the case is resolved. Sometimes there is a need for a shock-therapy by beating her lightly and she comes to her senses and returns to her family and the case is resolved. If these steps don't work then they assign referees from both families and make agreements of how to conduct affairs after that. Finally if there is absolutely now way to save the marriage, then they get divorced. Which part of it is so unbelievable that the weak-hearted have to make up another meaning for 'dha-ra-ba'?
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Which part of it is so unbelievable that the weak-hearted have to make up another meaning for 'dha-ra-ba'?
The part that he has no right to beat/punish her when he catches her red handed in adultrey, but he can beat her IF HE FEARS that she might be nashez (what's this BTW?); i.e even before actually being nashez. Does this sound to you any kind of justice, let alone a divine one (to punish someone before they actually commit a crime)?
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Peace "Hajir" and "siki",
Lemme give you a simple example. The Quran uses a the word "sallu" also. So what does it mean according to the majority of Arabas or what does it most popularly mean. "to praise/bless" would be the answer. Although if you consult the dictionaries then youd find the most logical use to be "contact". Same is with "daraba". In science we dont go with popularity. It wld be our downfall. Just consider this example. In the US more than 60% ppl beleive the earth was created in the past 10000 yrs and much more believe in creationism covering both young and old eath creationists. Well science shows tht all of this is false. So there goes your popularity stuff. No my friends GOD wants us to use the scientific approach and the amazing thing is whilst we do tht as many here like "Damon", whom ive has many disagreements with in the past but on this i agree very much, and others have done, we come up with a very rational and sensible meaning as well. Moreover it is an established observed fact tht physical beating of the wife at any time only worsens the matter so if tht were really the meaning of the word then the Quran would be falsified. GOD Bless! -
Peace "hajir",
Hajir the unbiased dictionaries tell a different story. Here "separating" seems to be the most favored meaning of "daraba" unlike popularity amongst Arabic speakers today. YOUVE BEEN FOOLED. DONT YOU GET IT. YOU SUNNIS/SHIAS HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. I CAN BET THEY WERE THE ONES WHO INTRODUCED THIS MEANING TO "DARABA" JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE WORD "SALLU" AND MANY OTHERS. Instead of understanding the Quran unbiasedly through the natural world you guys use christian and jeiwsh dogma. Man this just makes me mad. Who is the weak minded now, pal? GOD Bless! -
Your logic is amazing.
thanks, i try
i'm seriously crying over the fact that someone who prefers the meaning of strike over the meaning of split questions my logic... hahahaha
convoluted much?
You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings.
you can't blindly accept interpretations based on your feelings either... but you do, ever so attached to the past... cut the cord!
this accusation of negating god's laws is unfounded, since nobody is negating anything... instead people are actively trying to find out what those laws are
disagreeing with your interpretation is alot different than negating it altogether - i would think that would be obvious... oh well P
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Peace "hajir",
Hajir the unbiased dictionaries tell a different story. Here "separating" seems to be the most favored meaning of "daraba" unlike popularity amongst Arabic speakers today. YOUVE BEEN FOOLED. DONT YOU GET IT. YOU SUNNIS/SHIAS HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. I CAN BET THEY WERE THE ONES WHO INTRODUCED THIS MEANING TO "DARABA" JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE WORD "SALLU" AND MANY OTHERS. Instead of understanding the Quran unbiasedly through the natural world you guys use christian and jeiwsh dogma. Man this just makes me mad. Who is the weak minded now, pal? GOD Bless!Peace Jonny, we are not talking about what 'seems' to make more sense to you or me. We are talking about what god actually meant by the word 'adhraboohunna'. If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'. Are you saying God couldn't choose the right word to communicate what He had in mind? If there is any conspiracy at work it is the enemies of Islam trying to pollute the arabic language, the language of Quran. But guess what, the same god who has protected his message for 1400 years is not going to let a bunch of losers pollute the language of Quran. They better find another way to mess with us.
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You wouldn't have liked to live with a man that you have beaten. No woman would. If he was such a loser that needed to be disciplined by his wife, then you are better of divorcing him. I hope no children were involved though.
Hajirfm, do you really believe a woman likes to live with a guy that beats her ? Well, ok, may be the few siki refers to...
In that case, if you wish to get married, look for a masochist - in case you wish a good marriage even after having her "disciplined" .Good luck,
lk -
Peace all,
And are we, as wives, meant to suffer at the (possible) tyranny of our husband, living in fear of doing that which he deems 'unacceptable' --if this matter is something that is going to be decided by his disgression? That fear that a woman carries in her heart of physical abuse from her husband (which easily stretches into other matters) smacks of shirk in my life's experience and understanding.
How do you explain that?
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This is an immensely clear issue for those with life experience.....If you want to beat anything go get a punchbag....
To all the women,what if it was linguistically proven that beating was indeed the correct translation,what happens then? Have faith and put up with it,or realise we have intelligence beyond mere books and archaic rules? -
Peace Khizer
In case of sallu, i agree with you , it makes sense in every possible way, so i did not hesitate a second to adopt a better understanding. However one should not blindly accept every theory proposed by someone. We must use common sense, rational thinking, combined with some research using Quran as dictionary, and thoroughly evaluate all aspects before jumping to a new conclusion.
About this particular ayah, i still do not find a better alternate meaning which can be confirmed from Quran , so i am sticking with the traditional meanings ,weather i personally like it or not . There is plenty in Quran which goes against the popular sentiments of today , but we must remember that "Practiced Norms of a certain society at a given point in time do not set the parameters" , it is God who does , so we must evaluate these matters keeping our hearts aside.
Brother point me a single women who is willing to accept this commandment ,or the matter regarding sex with MMA, or the recommendation of half share in inheritance? Because these rules are Gender biased , but the creator knows his creation the best, and hence recommends the best.
We must be honest and unbiased in analysing Quran, and should evaluate every argument/word on merit rather than looking for meanings, which our hearts want to find in the Message.
Finally , brother show me from Quran where Dharbba is used in the meaning of separate or leave, and you will find me more than willing to accept it.
cheers handshake
siki
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Peace siki,
Finally , brother show me from Quran where Dharbba is used in the meaning of separate or leave, and you will find me more than willing to accept it.
Separate/leave/travel/get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To beat them makes no sense and contradicts the rest of Qur?an.
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This is an immensely clear issue for those with life experience.....If you want to beat anything go get a punchbag....
To all the women,what if it was linguistically proven that beating was indeed the correct translation,what happens then? Have faith and put up with it,or realise we have intelligence beyond mere books and archaic rules?It is not just a problem of linguistics of this word, it is the understanding of the whole verse. The example of the two kind of women (the believing and the nashez) is he example of people who were priviliged and spend from their money, because this is what the verse is about, not the passive ones who are doing nothing and were just being catered for. Otherwise, why would someone who does not have the means to sustain themselves become arrogant (this is BTW the meaning of nashez)?
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Peace, Samia.
I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".
Moreseo, it is not only the women who can be "nashez", (be guilty of "noushouz", but also the men.
Read this ( I will leave the word untranslated)
And if a woman fears from her husband "noushouz", or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do.
The above verse poses a problem to the chauvanist and misogynist traditionalists, because it shows that men also, can be "nashiz".
So, if according to these traditionalists, "noushouz" means disobedience, then how can they explain 4128??
Does it mean that men have to obey their wives also??Or are they missing something?
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We had a previous discussion on this, not sure if it's been brought up but here it is anyway
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=13327.0
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Peace, Samia.
I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".
Lisanul 3arab nashz (n) elevated part of earth; nashaza (v) to rise, to be higher than its normal place; to stand up or get up.
Nushouz of huband or wife to look down upon the other
In the qur'aan
5811 = to rise up "..and when you are told to rise up, rise up. Allah will exalt in degrees those who believe..."2259 = to put on top "...look at the bones, how We put them on each other then clothe them with flesh"
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......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)
When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).Peace...
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......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)
When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).Peace...
Exactly!
The two women are the example of "rijaal seekers, movers " who work, have money and spend . The fact that women can also be rich is not exceptional. Rich men have daughters, wives, sisters who inherit them, that is the least to say. God has advised men to be fair to their wives. Now it is the turn of women who support the family to be God fearing and not arrogant.
How can anybody beat someone who pays his rent and food?
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Why then would she like to live with a man who beat her? confused
may be she is masochist.....