Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
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Peace "Hajir" and "siki",
Lemme give you a simple example. The Quran uses a the word "sallu" also. So what does it mean according to the majority of Arabas or what does it most popularly mean. "to praise/bless" would be the answer. Although if you consult the dictionaries then youd find the most logical use to be "contact". Same is with "daraba". In science we dont go with popularity. It wld be our downfall. Just consider this example. In the US more than 60% ppl beleive the earth was created in the past 10000 yrs and much more believe in creationism covering both young and old eath creationists. Well science shows tht all of this is false. So there goes your popularity stuff. No my friends GOD wants us to use the scientific approach and the amazing thing is whilst we do tht as many here like "Damon", whom ive has many disagreements with in the past but on this i agree very much, and others have done, we come up with a very rational and sensible meaning as well. Moreover it is an established observed fact tht physical beating of the wife at any time only worsens the matter so if tht were really the meaning of the word then the Quran would be falsified. GOD Bless! -
Peace "hajir",
Hajir the unbiased dictionaries tell a different story. Here "separating" seems to be the most favored meaning of "daraba" unlike popularity amongst Arabic speakers today. YOUVE BEEN FOOLED. DONT YOU GET IT. YOU SUNNIS/SHIAS HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. I CAN BET THEY WERE THE ONES WHO INTRODUCED THIS MEANING TO "DARABA" JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE WORD "SALLU" AND MANY OTHERS. Instead of understanding the Quran unbiasedly through the natural world you guys use christian and jeiwsh dogma. Man this just makes me mad. Who is the weak minded now, pal? GOD Bless! -
Your logic is amazing.
thanks, i try
i'm seriously crying over the fact that someone who prefers the meaning of strike over the meaning of split questions my logic... hahahaha
convoluted much?
You can't negate god's laws based on your feelings.
you can't blindly accept interpretations based on your feelings either... but you do, ever so attached to the past... cut the cord!
this accusation of negating god's laws is unfounded, since nobody is negating anything... instead people are actively trying to find out what those laws are
disagreeing with your interpretation is alot different than negating it altogether - i would think that would be obvious... oh well P
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Peace "hajir",
Hajir the unbiased dictionaries tell a different story. Here "separating" seems to be the most favored meaning of "daraba" unlike popularity amongst Arabic speakers today. YOUVE BEEN FOOLED. DONT YOU GET IT. YOU SUNNIS/SHIAS HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. I CAN BET THEY WERE THE ONES WHO INTRODUCED THIS MEANING TO "DARABA" JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE WORD "SALLU" AND MANY OTHERS. Instead of understanding the Quran unbiasedly through the natural world you guys use christian and jeiwsh dogma. Man this just makes me mad. Who is the weak minded now, pal? GOD Bless!Peace Jonny, we are not talking about what 'seems' to make more sense to you or me. We are talking about what god actually meant by the word 'adhraboohunna'. If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'. Are you saying God couldn't choose the right word to communicate what He had in mind? If there is any conspiracy at work it is the enemies of Islam trying to pollute the arabic language, the language of Quran. But guess what, the same god who has protected his message for 1400 years is not going to let a bunch of losers pollute the language of Quran. They better find another way to mess with us.
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You wouldn't have liked to live with a man that you have beaten. No woman would. If he was such a loser that needed to be disciplined by his wife, then you are better of divorcing him. I hope no children were involved though.
Hajirfm, do you really believe a woman likes to live with a guy that beats her ? Well, ok, may be the few siki refers to...
In that case, if you wish to get married, look for a masochist - in case you wish a good marriage even after having her "disciplined" .Good luck,
lk -
Peace all,
And are we, as wives, meant to suffer at the (possible) tyranny of our husband, living in fear of doing that which he deems 'unacceptable' --if this matter is something that is going to be decided by his disgression? That fear that a woman carries in her heart of physical abuse from her husband (which easily stretches into other matters) smacks of shirk in my life's experience and understanding.
How do you explain that?
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This is an immensely clear issue for those with life experience.....If you want to beat anything go get a punchbag....
To all the women,what if it was linguistically proven that beating was indeed the correct translation,what happens then? Have faith and put up with it,or realise we have intelligence beyond mere books and archaic rules? -
Peace Khizer
In case of sallu, i agree with you , it makes sense in every possible way, so i did not hesitate a second to adopt a better understanding. However one should not blindly accept every theory proposed by someone. We must use common sense, rational thinking, combined with some research using Quran as dictionary, and thoroughly evaluate all aspects before jumping to a new conclusion.
About this particular ayah, i still do not find a better alternate meaning which can be confirmed from Quran , so i am sticking with the traditional meanings ,weather i personally like it or not . There is plenty in Quran which goes against the popular sentiments of today , but we must remember that "Practiced Norms of a certain society at a given point in time do not set the parameters" , it is God who does , so we must evaluate these matters keeping our hearts aside.
Brother point me a single women who is willing to accept this commandment ,or the matter regarding sex with MMA, or the recommendation of half share in inheritance? Because these rules are Gender biased , but the creator knows his creation the best, and hence recommends the best.
We must be honest and unbiased in analysing Quran, and should evaluate every argument/word on merit rather than looking for meanings, which our hearts want to find in the Message.
Finally , brother show me from Quran where Dharbba is used in the meaning of separate or leave, and you will find me more than willing to accept it.
cheers handshake
siki
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Peace siki,
Finally , brother show me from Quran where Dharbba is used in the meaning of separate or leave, and you will find me more than willing to accept it.
Separate/leave/travel/get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To beat them makes no sense and contradicts the rest of Qur?an.
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This is an immensely clear issue for those with life experience.....If you want to beat anything go get a punchbag....
To all the women,what if it was linguistically proven that beating was indeed the correct translation,what happens then? Have faith and put up with it,or realise we have intelligence beyond mere books and archaic rules?It is not just a problem of linguistics of this word, it is the understanding of the whole verse. The example of the two kind of women (the believing and the nashez) is he example of people who were priviliged and spend from their money, because this is what the verse is about, not the passive ones who are doing nothing and were just being catered for. Otherwise, why would someone who does not have the means to sustain themselves become arrogant (this is BTW the meaning of nashez)?
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Peace, Samia.
I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".
Moreseo, it is not only the women who can be "nashez", (be guilty of "noushouz", but also the men.
Read this ( I will leave the word untranslated)
And if a woman fears from her husband "noushouz", or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do.
The above verse poses a problem to the chauvanist and misogynist traditionalists, because it shows that men also, can be "nashiz".
So, if according to these traditionalists, "noushouz" means disobedience, then how can they explain 4128??
Does it mean that men have to obey their wives also??Or are they missing something?
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We had a previous discussion on this, not sure if it's been brought up but here it is anyway
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=13327.0
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Peace, Samia.
I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".
Lisanul 3arab nashz (n) elevated part of earth; nashaza (v) to rise, to be higher than its normal place; to stand up or get up.
Nushouz of huband or wife to look down upon the other
In the qur'aan
5811 = to rise up "..and when you are told to rise up, rise up. Allah will exalt in degrees those who believe..."2259 = to put on top "...look at the bones, how We put them on each other then clothe them with flesh"
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......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)
When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).Peace...
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......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)
When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).Peace...
Exactly!
The two women are the example of "rijaal seekers, movers " who work, have money and spend . The fact that women can also be rich is not exceptional. Rich men have daughters, wives, sisters who inherit them, that is the least to say. God has advised men to be fair to their wives. Now it is the turn of women who support the family to be God fearing and not arrogant.
How can anybody beat someone who pays his rent and food?
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Why then would she like to live with a man who beat her? confused
may be she is masochist.....
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Peace siki,
Separate/leave/travel/get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To beat them makes no sense and contradicts the rest of Qur?an.
Peace my dear NUN
I appreciate your effort for providing me with references. i have examined them and here is my opinion.
In all of these occurrences , The term "Daraaba" is combined with "Fil Ardee" except 38-44
The word daraaba when combined with the term "Fill Ardee" conveys a different meaning , which is "going out in the land" or in other words it is like, " When you hit the road /Go and hit the road/they went about pouncing the earth "etc.
38-44 does not have this syntax and the word daraaba is singly used, and hence it conveys the meaning of striking . (you may like to recheck with some other translations)
Formulation/context of the sentence is very important in determing the correct meaning of a word in a particular sentence, we just can't pick up any dictionary or lane and then randomly replace a word to derive a meaning of our choice.
lets take the example of the word Strike in English.
" I will strike you"
"The union called for a strike"
"Strike out this option"
In fighter pilot's language , when some one tells his fellow aviator that he is scheduled for a "strike", it means he is flying a ground attack profile.The word "Darraba" when used alone , conveys the meaning of strike/hit, and in that particular verse as the subject is/are human so that can only mean HIT THEM.
Samia had a valid argument that strike in terms of hit should be generally combined with some thing like , hit where? with what? Her observation is correct but is not a rule, The sentence is grammatically and linguistically still correct even if the objects are not specified. And in this particular case divine wisdom probably did not want to limit its application. He left it to individual choice/situation/wisdom.
NADIA! Thank you very much for your referral that was helpfull.
God Bless
sikandar
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Salam,
hajirfm you said "If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'." elektro
If God says utrokoohunna then many men would believe that they should leave (including leaving the financial responsibility, leaving the relationship). That's not what God wants because clearly God loves for couples to reconcile (especially if there are children).
He wouldn't say "talleqoohunna" because God doesn't like divorce (as seen in Quran) and gives people time apart and a chance to get back together.
So God provides a word which implies Temporality (temporarily leave). adhreb = strike (temporary break - stoppage in order to bargain or reach agreement)
Adhred alta3am (food) = strike against food (hunger strike)
Adhreb Al-shoghl = strike against work (go on strike)
Adhred Al-nisa / adrebhunna = strike against the woman (temporarily leave her) ----> hunna is just a pronoun = Them (femenine)God always wants people to have a TIME (break) before divorce (whether to give time to see if the woman is pregnant or to cool off). He even says that if you hate your woman, you could be hating something in which God has placed a lot of good.
God says that men and women are equal, that they have affection and mercy between them and other words like that. He doesn't give men a right to oppress or hit women in any way. As a matter of fact we know from the Quran that God doesn't like oppression or the aggressors.
Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.
Traditionally men (males) corrupted Hadith and religious guidelines so they can gain power in the home and society.
You're free to disagree. But God is also the best Sociologist and Social Worker, and He knows what's best. Look at Quran as a whole & the reason for it = peace.
Salam peace
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Peace all,
And are we, as wives, meant to suffer at the (possible) tyranny of our husband, living in fear of doing that which he deems 'unacceptable' --if this matter is something that is going to be decided by his disgression? That fear that a woman carries in her heart of physical abuse from her husband (which easily stretches into other matters) smacks of shirk in my life's experience and understanding.
How do you explain that?
Well you better open your eyes before you marry anybody. This verse doesn't give permission to men to be abusive. It allows beating only in very stricted circumstances. Most women don't go that far. We are not talking about you. We are talking about a woman who is acting irresponsible toward her family.
And please keep the label of shirk out of the picture for now. Well what do I expect from this forum where some people here consider all muslims mushrik except their small group.