An Invitation from a Muslim Cleric to You
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yeah, he's not like the Imam Mehdi who's supposed to kill all the lobsters is he? or was that pigs...I forget.
The concept of Imam Mehdi is wrong....there is no mention of him in the quran.
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I have searched the whole quran and Imam is only mentiond with Ibrahim and only he was Imam and there is no name of Mehdi in the quran. And Ibrahim built the first Masjid and he was Imam. Alhamdulillah
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As Salaamu Alaikum Forum,
Count me in either as debating or listening, I am cool with either. Hopefully other of our prevelant posters such as Tanveer, ayman, Wakas, Progod, Layth, etc. will join in at some point, just to do a little propogating the truth. I sincerely hope that anyone that does participate, adheres to politeness and respect towards all other people and that it can be done in a peaceful manner; realising that probably neither debater will change the other's views. But maybe someone listening from the sunni side will see our point of view, albeit an inconsistent one except for not following "hadith and sunnah" as guidance from Allah. So give the details so that anyone interested, including myself can be prepared with their time to contribute, Allah willing.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Its a waste of time, trust me. We have seen all the debates possible.
Yesterday I was reading some materials in the net by Gamal Banna, incredible stuff, but its in Arabic. I really think we must try to translate some of his stuff to English. He really brings a lot of information about hadiths, Islamic history and problems of Islamic fiqh.
He has good views about secularism and pluralism and whats more he is a moderate Quranite. His website
http//www.islamiccall.org/EHDAA.HTM
Maybe we can raise some money and try to translate his stuff.
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Its a waste of time, trust me. We have seen all the debates possible.
Yesterday I was reading some materials in the net by Gamal Banna, incredible stuff, but its in Arabic. I really think we must try to translate some of his stuff to English. He really brings a lot of information about hadiths, Islamic history and problems of Islamic fiqh.
He has good views about secularism and pluralism and whats more he is a moderate Quranite. His website
http//www.islamiccall.org/EHDAA.HTM
Maybe we can raise some money and try to translate his stuff.
Gamal al Banna is a moderate, rational hadith believer. He opposes considering quraan aloners kafirs and he even redicules this idea. His principles in a nut shell sunnism believing in all hadiths is an extreme and quraan alone is an extreme, let's be in between. So he does not consider himslef a qur'aan aloner, because he accepts some hadiths.
His website is more political and concentrates more on Egyptian affairs. I find Dr A.S. Mansour more global, especially that, being a former prof. in Lazhar, he knows all about hadith and sira. And he considers himself a Q.A.
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Gamal al Banna is a moderate, rational hadith believer. He opposes considering quraan aloners kafirs and he even redicules this idea. His principles in a nut shell sunnism believing in all hadiths is an extreme and quraan alone is an extreme, let's be in between. So he does not consider himslef a qur'aan aloner, because he accepts some hadiths.
His website is more political and concentrates more on Egyptian affairs. I find Dr A.S. Mansour more global, especially that, being a former prof. in Lazhar, he knows all about hadith and sira. And he considers himself a Q.A.
Dr Mansour has extreme anti sufi views and has a tendency to attack personally Abu Huraira and other "companions". He wrote an article once in the website metransparent.com called "Abu Huraira and the case of the dog", in it he accuses Abu Huraira of fabricating hadiths about dogs being negative because he loved cats. I am sorry but if you want to influence Muslim intellectuals you have to stop relying propaganda. So whats he saying that Abu Huraira is going to lie about hadiths because he loved cats and hated dogs! I may stomach that but most Muslims would find that too ridiculing of a companion even if that companion is controversial. After all Abu Huraira did not twist anyones arm to accept his hadiths and these hadiths were compiled over 150 years after his death. We don't even know if he ever said those hadiths. Mansour's style is too Arab, either you praise(madh) and if you can't you attack(hija). He has good knowledge, but only on Islamic history after all that is his speciality. He is a critic, but I find his anti sufi views too provacative and wahhabiesque plus he uses language that is also provacative, like shirk and stuff. He is trouble and not that different from Sunni islam, its my way or shirk and deviancy. He is not a pluralist.
I am now reading Banna's stuff about European concept of justice from the Greek to the modern era as compared to the Quran and Islamic history. I think Banna can influence the mainstream, whats more this guy had these ideas since the late 40s and thus can not be accused of copying the West. He also wants to continue what he believes was the unfinished work of Jamal al Deen Al Afghani and Muhammad Abdu. When I read Banna's stuff I feel there is hope and find his style mild but assertive. He builds slowly and never uses provacative language. I find Mansour's style too Arab, one sided and critical of others. I know some here like it that way, but if we really want to make a change we need someone who is able to get to the mainstream. Its not as hard as it seems.
Not every intellectual can be an influence to the masses, that needs some charisma but most it needs moderation. And very few Arabs can fill that role.
Last about him being too political and focussing on Egyptian affairs, this is why he is very imporatant. Egypt is the cultural capital of the Arabs and he is a believer as I am that religious reform can not take place without political reform, and vice versa, at least in the Arab world because religious reform requires freedom and that can't take place without political reform. Husni Mubarak and Al Saud and co. are not going to allow Islamic reformist breathing space, since both they and the Sunni establishment like the status quo.
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Salaam Raj-ah
I did not criticise al-Banna. And I know Mansour's fiery language. But frankly speaking, neither of them can be the port-parole of qur'aan aloner. Neither of them criticized , at least, some rituals of hajj. Both accept traditional salaat, this is to say the least. How can they speak on behalf of qur'aan aloners? You asked on another thread what we would answer if asked how we pray. This seems to be the trap set by sunnis to make qur'aan aloner acknowledge part of the transmitted practices; then accept another and another untill we find ourselves kissing the black stone.
We on this forum should be the ones to debate. We should not be in need of bringing some more back-ups. If we feel we are not yet ready, we should just say that.
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Boost
ok Bro RasulHamsa, actually all of us in that yahoo conference were muslim. But some of us were people that frequent this site. Hence, the free-minder versus non free-minds distinction.
I think you're making a non-issue out of nothing and I don't appreciate it.
Yes! that is what is done by some and yet they pretend to present themselves as Scholars.
Well I don't think so any of here will be able to Debate with any Real life Scholar if he realy is? They are playing on very weak wicket sorry to say! but this doesnot mean at all that Imam is right in every thing he says.
Samia I think you addressed me by mistake in your above post.
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Salaam Raj-ah
I did not criticise al-Banna. And I know Mansour's fiery language. But frankly speaking, neither of them can be the port-parole of qur'aan aloner. Neither of them criticized , at least, some rituals of hajj. Both accept traditional salaat, this is to say the least. How can they speak on behalf of qur'aan aloners? You asked on another thread what we would answer if asked how we pray. This seems to be the trap set by sunnis to make qur'aan aloner acknowledge part of the transmitted practices; then accept another and another untill we find ourselves kissing the black stone.
We on this forum should be the ones to debate. We should not be in need of bringing some more back-ups. If we feel we are not yet ready, we should just say that.
But how can you be ready? The veses in the Quran are not going to increase, so if you don't have verses that talks about the details of rituals, then you are not going to get it. Its only going to lead to isolationism, unless Q.A want to remain isolated from the rest of the Muslims, then where is the Ummah the Quran is talking about?
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Peace Be Upon You All
I was chatting with some free-minders yesterday on yahoo when I decided to bring in a friend who knows nothing about the quran alone movement. And so it began )
Things quickly began to heat up as he brought in his own friends to back up Bukhari. Eventually he invited us to a room on paltalk where a sheikh was answering questions. the other fm brothers and sisters that were on yahoo at the time didn't want to participate but I went.
He speaks in English. He is very rational, calm cool and collected. He has patience and uses no emotional bait to make his point. I was very respectful and tried to soak in the points he was making.
In the end, he invited any quran aloner to meet him in a private room for a serious discussion. He will set up dates when he is free. So that he is not bombarded by many people throwing a million points at the same time, he asks that only 2 people debate with him per session. Others are welcome to sit back and watch.
Of course, no attacks, no emotional outbursts of how the sunnis are blind, stupid or anything else disrespectful. Let's show him true quranic etiquette as he's shown me the same. He never once attacked or insulted me nor even treated me neutrally. He called me his dear sister and was always calm no matter how much I may have tested his patience with a difference of opinion.
I think this is a great opportunity to get our message out there and have a fruitful discussion with someone of authority in the sunni world. It would show a great development in this movement for us to begin to engage with sunni scholars, especially when he extended his hand first. I would love to see all of you interested.
If anyone is interested please post a reply. I will post his available time when my friend tells me. A microphone is preferred but not required. He will be speaking on mic however.
Please post here any requests or additional rules of debate and I'll pass it along so that we're all on the same page before the first meeting.
[/quoteSalam.
Dear sister, first tell them this
THE WORD ?AL-HEKMAH? (WISDOM)
IN THE QURAN
By A. MohammedDue to the fact that the Quran did not contain any mention of the words ?Sunna?t Muhammad?, the ardent Sunni?s found it necessary to manipulate the meaning of some Quranic words so as to create a Quranic reference to their cherished ?hadith? and ?Sunna?. The word on which they base their claim is that of (Al-Hekmah) as found in a number of verses as
"Remember God?s blessings upon you, and what He sent down to you of the ?Al-Ketab? and ?Al-Hekmah? to enlighten you with it." 2231
Literally speaking, the meaning of ?Al-Ketab? is the book (the Quran), and ?Al-Hekmah? is wisdom. Nevertheless they interpret ?Al-Hekmah? here to mean the Sunna of Muhammad. However, with a close inspection of the Quranic verses, it can be shown that this interpretation is a total corruption. This is due to the following reasons
ONE
The word ?bihee? (with it) that appear at the end of the verse, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ?Al-Hekmah? and ?Al-Ketab? must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
If the words ?Al-Hekmah? and ?Al-Ketab? really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ?bihima? (with them), which is the plural mode of ?bihee?.
TWO
The word ?Al-Hekmah? is used throughout the Quran as an adjective of the ?Al-Ketab? (the Quran). This is made evident in the following verses
"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 361-2
"This is what We recite to you of the ?Ayat? and the ?Zekr Al-Hakim" 358
"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ?Ketab Al-Hakim" 101 also 312
THREE
The same word ?Al-Hekmah? is used in the Quran in connection with prophets and messengers who lived before the time of Muhammad. Obviously before Muhammad lived his Sunna did not exist. Thus to say that ?Al-Hekmah? means Sunna?t Muhammad is incorrect. Consider the following verses
a- The following are God?s words to Jesus
"And I taught you the ?Ketab? (Scripture) and ?Al-Hekmah?(wisdom)." 5110
Clearly the word ?Al-Hekmah? here does not mean the Sunna of Muhammad.
b- The following were the words of Abraham as he implored his Lord
"Our Lord, and send for them a messenger from among them to recite to them your ?Ayat? and teach them the ?Ketab? (Scripture) and ?Al-Hekmah? (wisdom)." 2129
Again the word ?Al-Hekmah? here could not mean anything but wisdom. Abraham had no knowledge of the ?Sunna? of Muhammad.
FOUR
A further evidence that the word ?Al-Hekmah? as used in the Quran means wisdom and not Sunna is found in the following verse
"He bestows ?Al-Hekmah? upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ?Al-Hekmah? has indeed attained a great blessing." 2269
The words "whoever He pleases" in this verse indicate that God bestows ?Al-Hekmah? upon any of the believers and not just His messengers. If we assume that ?Al-Hekmah? means the Sunna we would have to believe that any ordinary believer may also have his own personal Sunna that has to be followed by other believers! This of course is not the case. The verse would instead make full sense if we think of ?Al-Hekmah? in its proper meaning as wisdom.
FIVE
In Sura 17, we are given a clear demonstration of the word ?Al-Hekmah? as being the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the wisdom to choose what is right. If we read the verses from 22 to 39, we find God commanding us not to worship except Him, to honor our parents, to give due alms to our relatives, the needy, the poor, and the traveling alien but without being extravagant or stingy, not to kill our children for fear of poverty, not to commit adultery, nor to abuse the orphan?s money, to trade equitably and fairly, to verify everything before following it blindly and not to act vainly. After such valuable advice God informs us that these virtues are indeed what wisdom is all about.
In that sense ?Al-Hekmah? is not a book of ?hadith? (sayings) of one single person but instead a blessing that God may bestow on any of His servants.
SIX
Perhaps the simplest and most convincing reason for discarding the corrupted meaning of ?Al-Hekmah? so as to mean the Sunna, is the fact that God is neither vague nor fond of providing us with puzzles. God asserts that the Quran is straightforward, it contains no crookedness
"An Arabic Quran, without any crookedness, that they may take heed." 3928
Surely, had God willed that we should follow the teachings of the Quran plus the Sunna He would have mentioned the words ?Sunna?t Muhammad? explicitly in the Quran. Needless to say, the only Sunna that is mentioned in the Quran is the Sunna of Allah.
"This is the Sunna of God for those of the past, and you will find no alternative for the Sunna of God." 3362
The Sunna of Allah is to be found in the Quran and previous Scripture.
Moreover if God had revealed to Muhammad an additional Sunna other than the Quran, as the Sunni?s would claim then we would expect God to say ?We have revealed to you the Ketab and the Sunna? or words to that effect. Instead the only Revelation endorsed in the Quran is the Quran itself
"And We have revealed to you the Ketab (the Quran) truthfully." 548
Indeed God takes an oath from His prophet of what was revealed to him. The oath contains nothing but the Quran
"Say, ?What is the greatest testimony?? Say, ?God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.? Say, ?I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 619
Finally God commands the prophet to rule and arbitrate between the people with Quran and nothing but the Quran
"We have sent down to you this Ketab, truthfully, in order to arbitrate between the people." 4105
SEVEN
Finally, the word ?Al-Hikmah? in any Arabic dictionary means WISDOM. To leave the literal and direct meaning and accept a manipulated meaning is to reject the truth of the Quran.
Then tell them this
THE WORD 'AL-HEKMAH' (WISDOM) IN
THE QURAN
By A. Ibrahim
Many sunni Muslims refer to the word (Al-Hekmah)- wisdom- as mentioned in 2129,2151, 2231, and 3334, when they talk about the hadiths and sunna of the Prophet Muhammed. They claim the word Al-Hekmah in these verses refer to the Hadiths and Sunna of the prophet Muhammed. That is FALSE.
Here is why they are WRONG Let us study the word Al-Hekmah in the Quran.
The word (Hekmah) ( wisdom in English,) has been used in 19 verses in the Quran for a total of 20 times (mentioned twice in 2269) .
(1) In 381, God is telling us that all the Prophets are given the book and Hekmah (Wisdom). All these Prophets did not give the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed.
(2) In 348 God is using the same term He used for Muhammed, telling us that he gave Jesus, the book and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(3) In 2251, God is telling us that he gave the Hekmah (Wisdom) to David, it is not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(4) In 454, God is telling us He gave Abraham's family the scripture and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(5) In 5110, again God is reminding us that he gave Jesus the book and the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(6) In 16125, God calls on the believers to use wisdom in inviting people to the path of God. Remember that God told us already that we should remind with the QURAN those who revernce His warnings. It is the Quran full of hekmah (wisdom)
(7) In 3112, God is telling us that He gave Luqman the Hekmah (wisdom), this was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
( In 4363 Jesus is telling his people that he brought them the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(9) The Quran is described as the book of hekmah (wisdom) by God Almighty. See 358, 101, 312, 363, 434, ...
(10) In 1739 God Almighty, the author of the Quran Himself explains what the word hekmah (wisdom) means, so no one can claim any thing different.
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated. " 1736-39
Here, God is telling us that the wisdom is what is included in the Quran. It is the wisdom that comes from Him not from other men.
Some people question the wisdom of God why did He choose to mention the book and the Hekmah if both are the same. First questioning the wisdom of God is equal to disbelief. Second, if you are to understand the Quran you would know what God means by the word Hekma, it is well explained in 1739. It is a common practice in the Arabic language to emphasize part of the whole by
mentioning that part after the whole.For example if you give some one a book that you want him to read and want to get his attention to chapter 7 for example, you would say read this book and chapter 7. This does not mean Chapter 7 is different than the book but you want to emphasize that particular
part. You want him to read the book and pay special attention to chapter 7.In 2238, God is telling the believers, "You shall observe the Contact Prayers, and the middle prayer and devote yourself totally to God." In this verse God wants to emphasize the middle prayer. The middle prayer is not something different from the rest of the prayers. And so is the word hekmah (Wisdom) is a part of, and not a separate part, of the Quran. God is emphasizing the Hekmah (wisdom) included in his books. That is what 1739 is explaining.
If you look at R. Khalifa's translation of 2238, you will find that he put this explanation in his translation. My translation of the Arabic above is almost the exact like the Arabic text.
Khalifa's translation is "You shall consistently observe the Contact prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to God."
For an English speaking person who is reading my translation above, he may think that the middle prayer is different than the rest of the prayers. Khalifa's translation above makes it easy to reach the meaning put in the Arabic text without over exerting the possibilities.
In brief the word Hekmah, in 2129 and others do NOT refer to the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed, it is the wisdom included in the Quran. When God ordered the Prophet's wives to mention what is recited in their homes of the book and wisdom (3334), He means to emphasize the need to mentions the wisdom , that is explained in 1739. It means to mention the Quran and especially the wisdom coming in the Quran.
Then finally, recite to them this
A Dozen reasons why believers should follow
the Quran and nothing but the QuranBY A. Muhammad
1- The Quran commands all Muslims to follow the Quran Alone, this command is found in numerous verses, the following are examples
"These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 456
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
2- The Quran confirms that the only Sunna is the Sunna of God. No where in the Quran is there any mention of Sunna't Muhammad!!!!
"You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (3362....3543.....4823)
3- The Quran confirms that the only duty of Muhammad (or of any messenger) is to deliver God's message, and not to teach any other teachings.
"The only duty of the messenger is to deliver God's message" 599 (also in 592.... 1635.......1682.....2454.......2918.....4248.......6412)
4- God commands the believers to obey the prophet, but God also makes sure that the obedience to the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered and nothing else. Obeying the prophet does not mean that he had a Sunna to be obeyed.
The confirmation that the obedience of the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered (the Quran) is confirmed in the following verse
"Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then the sole of the messenger is to deliver the message (the Quran)" 6412
Note how the obedience to the prophet and the deliverance of the Quran are linked in the same verse.
5- You will never read any where in the Quran words like "Obey God and obey Muhammad" or obey Jesus, or Moses..........always the word messenger........that is to emphasise that what is to be obeyed is the message of God and not the personal words of any messenger.
6- The Quran also confirms that Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from God
"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 6943-47
7- Muhammad was made to swear that the only revelation he received from God was the Quran. The following verse confirms that all what is known as (Hadith Qodsy) are lies that the prophet is innocent of
"Say (O Muhammad) what is of the greatest testimony? Say God is the witness between me and you, and this Quran has been inspired to me, that I may warn you and whomever it reaches" 619
If the hadith Al-Qodsy was truly God speaking to Muhammad as they falsely claim would'nt the verse carry a testimony to that ???
Nowhere in the Quran is there any indication that Muhammad received from God anything other than the Quran.
8- Prophet Muhammad himself commanded his people not to write his hadith, this is documented in Muslim and other books
"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Muslim)
9- For the first 150 years to 200 years after the death of the prophet the writing of his hadith was forbidden, in accordance with his commands. The first one to document a comprehensive collection of hadith was Al-Bukhari (Note that Al-Bukhari was born in the year 198 After Hijrah..........does that make you think????)
Even if we were to follow the hadith, how accurate can a collection of sayings documented two centuries after the death of the prophet be?????
10- God commands the prophet in the Quran to say that he is infallible in the revelation he delivers, but that he may commit errors in his personal words and hadith
"SayIf I err , I err because of my shortcomings, and if I am rightly guided it is due to the revelation I receive from my Lord" 3450
In spite of that confirmation and also 6 incidents in the Quran when the prophet is reprimanded by God, for errors he committed, the worshippers of Muhammad claim that he was infallible!!!! These 6 incidents are found in (867-68......943.......9113-114........ 3337..........661.........801-11 )
11- The Quran confirms that for every prophet there will be enemies of the devils of humans and jinns who will fabricate fancy sayings and attribute them to the prophet to deceive the people
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire in each other fancy sayings, in order to deceive" 6112
God also asserts that only the disbelievers will listen to such fabrications (see 6113)
12- Finally, we are told that the Quran is totally sufficient for the genuine believer for the following reasons
A- The Quran is not in need of an annex since it is complete
"The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice" 6115
B- The Quran is not in need of an explanatory supplement since it is clear and is not ambiguous
"A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear book" 121
"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 4458
C- The Quran is not in need of a correction manual since it is perfect and harbours no contradictions
"A.L.R. This is a book whose verses have been perfected" 111
D- The Quran is not in need of a step by step guide since it is fully detailed
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
For all these reasons, all Muslims should
follow the Quran, the whole Quran and
nothing but the Quran.
PRAISE GODPeace.
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He wrote an article once in the website metransparent.com called "Abu Huraira and the case of the dog", in it he accuses Abu Huraira of fabricating hadiths about dogs being negative because he loved cats. I am sorry but if you want to influence Muslim intellectuals you have to stop relying propaganda. So whats he saying that Abu Huraira is going to lie about hadiths because he loved cats and hated dogs! I may stomach that but most Muslims would find that too ridiculing of a companion even if that companion is controversial.
Even a ten year-old would smell that there is something fishy if he is told that a person says that dogs are very bad while at the same time he is also known as the father of cats due to his deep love for the animals.
