Questions for Quran upholders
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It is very populair under the Truth seeking elite of educated people. But for the mass, it is on a to high level. So the mullahs just say they are kafirs, and the mass will believe it.
But TolueIslam has left its marks for sure, and are still making it. Only the organisation I personally believe is not done properly. They could have introduced many new writers, but only allowed a few to write.
We want to give this all a new kickstart at the upcoming new Ourbeacon site.
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Wow, really good clarifying posts, brother Arnold!!! bravo
I'm very happy to see all these questions and answers in the same place - making clarity and further encouraging confidence in studying from God's scripture, seeking & asking from Him for His guidance.
May God Bless you for such great sincere logic & efforts to compile such complete answers to the many questions that many face so often in their minds and in their lives.
May God Guide and Bless.
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Arnold's article should indeed be archived. However, before doing so I think it is important to provide accurate references for the hadiths mentioned (the books and numbers) because some people want to verify things by themselves while they are not very familiar with hadith books. I think brother Rasulhamza 'The Hadith Hunter' would be of great help in this task.
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Another article well done!
I totally agree when it comes to the verses recited during prayer. They must fit the purpose of prayer verses that implores god, glorifying Him. But all around, I hear the Sunnis reciting whatever verses from the Quran that they know of without knowing the actual meaning.
For example, should a person utter these verses during prayer to Allah?
"I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the connection for My remembrance." (2014).
The above verse if recited during prayer is absurd and ridiculous! How can the person claim to be God, and asks God to perform solat to remember him?? &
Another example
"And they ask you about menstruation? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed." (2222)
Why on earth would you talk about menstruation in front of God in solat/prayer?? It's ridiculous. I found it funny when people recite those kinds of verses. It makes me laugh to my knees. rotfl
Verses with "Say..." in them
I do recite verses with "Say" infront of them. But I REMOVE the word say, and just recite the words after it. For example
1141 Say "I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind,"
1142 "The King of mankind,"
1143 "The god of mankind,"
1144 "From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
1145 "Who whispers into the chests of mankind,"
1146 "From among the Jinn and mankind."The surah starts from "Qul a'uzubirab binnas...". But I remove the "Qul" in front and just recite the words after it "A'uzubirab binnas..." ("I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind". ! Those who use their brains and understand Arabic will remove the "Qul" from their recitation. Those who are stupid and just recite things like a parrot will include the "Qul" therefore asking God to say the verse instead. Astagfirullah!
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I do recite verses with "Say" infront of them. But I REMOVE the word say, and just recite the words after it. For example
1141 Say "I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind,"
1142 "The King of mankind,"
1143 "The god of mankind,"
1144 "From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
1145 "Who whispers into the chests of mankind,"
1146 "From among the Jinn and mankind."The surah starts from "Qul a'uzubirab binnas...". But I remove the "Qul" in front and just recite the words after it "A'uzubirab binnas..." ("I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind". ! Those who use their brains and understand Arabic will remove the "Qul" from their recitation. Those who are stupid and just recite things like a parrot will include the "Qul" therefore asking God to say the verse instead. Astagfirullah!
Salaam Ahmed,
I understand that Muslims take certain verses and surahs from the Quran to recite back to their Lord senselessly. But saying "I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind" is equally senseless.
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mmm i do not see it as senseless - if u are in prayer (whatever style u do!) and communicating with God - praying to him to seek refuge with him seems fine to me.... whats ur perspective?
There's a big difference between taking "refuge with Him" and taking "refuge in Him", don't you think? Besides, how would you know? -
There's a big difference between taking "refuge with Him" and taking "refuge in Him", don't you think? Besides, how would you know?
No, not really.
Would you say "I put my trust with God" or "I put my trust in God"?
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No, not really.
Would you say "I put my trust with God" or "I put my trust in God"?
The latter obviously. -
I think that is just grammatical error.
I very much doubt. Well known translators have interpreted either way. What is the Arabic word used for "with/in" in "Qul aaoozubi rabbin-naasay"? Besides, even without the Qul, why would anyone call upon God the rest of that specific surah??? -
Peace,
What is the Arabic word used for "with/in" in "Qul aaoozubi rabbin-naasay"?
With = Bi. "Qul aaoozubi rabbin-naasay"
However, Bi can also mean 'in'. For example Muminun bi-rasul illahi. "A believer in the messenger of god".
I hope those with greater arabic skills can confirm.
Nadeem
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With = Bi. "Qul aaoozubi rabbin-naasay"
However, Bi can also mean 'in'. For example Muminun bi-rasul illahi. "A believer in the messenger of god".
I hope those with greater arabic skills can confirm.
Doesn't "Fi" mean "in"? -
Arnold Yasin said
Conclusion
It has already been stated that the method or the ritual part of the prayer cannot possibly a revelation as it is not in the Qur'an. Yet, a standard question is always raised as the Hadith gives the method of prayer how could we learn to pray if we ignored the Hadith? We have already shown that Bukhari does not give the format of the prayers that we perform today and that the format of all our prayers underwent substantial changes before it was finally established in its overall present form, and that most of these changes took place well after the death of the Prophet. Besides, there is a gap of about 250 years before the Hadith literature appears (see section 10.1 for discussion on Hadith). So how did the people pray during this time? Obviously, the Prophet must have established a method, by taking into account the principles in the Qur'an and by consulting his companions. There is no difference in this matter than in establishing any subsidiary laws within the bounds of the fundamental principles (see Section 13.5).
Importantly, the Prophet did not record either the method of prayer, or his own sayings and practices. We can only infer from this that he realised that this would have created confusion between the recordings of his own sayings and practices, and the recordings of the Qur'an. However, a ritual once established, and practised regularly by the Muslim communities of that time was unlikely to have fallen apart, even though it was not written down. Thus, the contention that without the Hadith the practice of salat could not be carried out does not hold water. It is a curious fact that, Bukhari has successfully avoided people's outrage on the many denigrating hadiths he quoted regarding the Prophet, by means of the simple and yet effective contention that without his investigations and writings on salat the practice today would have been impossible ? which is evident nonsense. The truth is that a practice which survived for 250 years without the influence of the Hadith, would have continued to survive simply by virtue of its regular practice ? passed from generation to generation.
Moreover, the rapid expansion of Islam within a few decades, gave the added resilience to the practice of salat. During the Abbaside period, some changes came in the methods and practices of prayer, caused by the four schools of law i.e. Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki and Hanbali. Further changes, particularly in the number of rakats to be performed during each prayer time, must have taken place over time due to human interference. Some changes also came due to cultural differences in various parts of the world and one doesn't have to travel too far to see these variations. How do we explain these? And where is the common consensus regarding our methods of prayer
End QuoteThats what I have been saying all along, the 5 rituals have nothing to do with hadiths. Arnold however seems to assume things were added by later generations and that there are variances. I do not know of these variances, does he mean like Alawite
Muslims. The 4 schools of Sunni Islam is overhyped. These are issues Ulema deal with, we need to try to find some independent sources of how muslims prayed in the early history of islam. Accounts by Hassan Al Basri or even during the late Ummayid days could give us an indication of how salaat were performed. I find later generations adding raka'ts hard to believe as far as the 5 rituals are concerned. As far as the voluntary prayers, thats pretty possible. Even Al Shafi, the godfather of hadiths conceded this when he saidShafi?i replied Legal knowledge is of two kinds one is for the general public, and no sober and mature person should be ignorant of it.
Excerpt On Legal Knowledge
- Someone asked me What is knowledge and how much should men know of it?
He asked For example?
replied For example, that the daily prayers are five, that men owe it to God to fast the month of Ramadan, to make the pilgrimage to the House whenever they are able, and to the legal alms in their estate; that He has prohibited usury, adultery, homicide, theft, wine, and of that sort which He has obligated men to comprehend, to perform, to pay in their property, and to abstain from He has forbidden it to them.
This kind of knowledge may be found textually in the Book of God, or may be found generally among the people of Islam. The public relates it from the preceding public and ascribes it to the Apostle of God, nobody ever questioning its ascription or its binding force upon them. It is the kind of knowledge which admits of error neither in its narrative nor in its interpretation; it is not permissible to question it.
He asked What is the second kind?
Shafi?i replied It consists of the detailed duties and rules obligatory on men, concerning which there exists neither a text in the Book of God, nor regarding most of them, a sunna. Whenever a sunna exists , it is of the kind related by few authorities, not by the public, and is subject to different interpretations arrived at by analogy.
So even Al Shafi, who after him Sunni Islam took off and hadiths exploded , concedes that the basic rituals are known to the common man.
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Yes. But Bi is also used for 'in'.
Okay, so then would you agree that taking refuge/protection "in" Him/Her/It make sense rather than "with" or would you say that it makes no difference? -
The latter obviously.
Interesting, I think I'm dyslexic or something. I swapped the two around in my head.
Still, you can use either "with" or "in" in this context, but "in" is usually more fitting.