Questions for Quran upholders
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Yes. But Bi is also used for 'in'.
Okay, so then would you agree that taking refuge/protection "in" Him/Her/It make sense rather than "with" or would you say that it makes no difference? -
The latter obviously.
Interesting, I think I'm dyslexic or something. I swapped the two around in my head.
Still, you can use either "with" or "in" in this context, but "in" is usually more fitting.
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Okay, so then would you agree that taking refuge/protection "in" Him/Her/It make sense rather than "with" or would you say that it makes no difference?
If we use the english 'with', the translated sentence would imply that god also takes refuge. Therefore, I'll have to agree with the use of in.
Nadeem
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If we use the english 'with', the translated sentence would imply that god also takes refuge. Therefore, I'll have to agree with the use of in.
Precisely! Thank you Nadeem. That was all. peace
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Precisely! Thank you Nadeem. That was all. peace
I don't know about Arabic, but in English, "in" and "with" are not mutually exclusive. You can place your trust with someone, but the meaning, I guess depends on the wording used - it sounds ridiculous to say "my heart is in you", generally. For physical objects, "with" is mutually exclusive but otherwise, it's a blend.
Overanalysing a typo I guess.
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Arnold
- How do you know how much Zakah to pay using the Quran alone?
? And they ask you what they should give. Say, "All that is surplus."
2219 They ask you (O Messenger), concerning alcohol, intoxicants, games of chance, and gambling and money earned without labor. Say, ?There is great detriment in these things as well as some benefits for mankind. But the detriment of them is much greater than the benefit of them. They drag down the individual and collective social potential.? And they ask you what they should give. Say, "All that is surplus." Thus Allah makes His Messages plain for you, that you may reflect -
Now Arnold, where is the answer?
How do you know what is surplus? above what amount is it surplus?
Are you trying to tell us that for every indiviual it is different? and thus contradicting your own argument that Islam is a System for Ummah.I think you have not provided any answer for this question.
For example I play at a stock market and my daily need as per my own assesment is $100, on a given day I earn $150, so now I give $50 as a Zakat because that is surplus as per my own assesment, the next day i make $50, so what will I do know? therefore if I would have saved some for my future and paid Zakat too as ordained by the ISLAMIC state from time to time it would have been much better then deciding at my own for what is surplus.
There are lots of decisions that when living in a society have to be done collectively.
A Scholar writes
The Zakat is an obligatory payment on all believers who have an income. This payment is to be paid to in accordance to God's instructions (see section 9).
"They also ask you what to give to charity say, "AL-AFW" God thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect" 2219
The Key word in this verse is the word "AL-AFW". To be able to determine what is exactly meant by this word we should look at other Quranic verses that employ the same word. The following are some Quranic verses that are of special significance to our inquiry
"Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. 'FA AFAWNA AAN ZALIKA' (We pardoned all this)." 4153
"Who give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and 'AL-AAFEEN AAN AL-NAAS' (pardoners of the people). God loves the charitable." 3134
"O you who believe, do not ask about matters which, if revealed to you prematurely, would hurt you. If you ask about them in light of the Quran, they will become obvious to you. God has 'AAFA ANHA' (deliberately overlooked them).God is Forgiver, Clement." 5101
" ........... 'AAFA ALLAH AMMA SALAF' (God has pardoned past offenses). But if anyone returns to such an offense, God will avenge it. God is Almighty, Avenger." 595
According to the above verse, we can see that the word 'AAFA' (and its derivatives) has been used to that which has been pardoned or overlooked.
If we apply this to the word 'AL-AFW' which is used in 2219 and which is related to the payment of Zakat, we can see that God is telling us that we should pay Zakat (charity) from that part of our income which we can afford to give away without the need to ask for it back, or in other words what we can afford to overlook and pardon without incurring any hardship.
Following Ayats are important
You shall give the due alms to the relatives, the needy, the poor, and the traveling alien, but do not be excessive, extravagant.
The extravagant are brethren of the devils, and the devil is unappreciative of his Lord.
Even if you have to turn away from them, as you pursue the mercy of your Lord, you shall treat them in the nicest manner.
You shall not keep your hand stingily tied to your neck, nor shall you foolishly open it up, lest you end up blamed and sorry.
Therefore if we take your explanation on the verse We are rather spending foolishely and that is not what Quran means by "Surplus" as expalined above.
2.5% was assigned by then Government (Islamic state) and we can change it by "Ijtehad" as is allowed by Quran. Then there is no restriction on 2.5% you can pay as much as you can but avoiding being exessive.
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Peace Rajah,
My post was just a short reply to the questions. It is just a mix of verses and snippits from some articles. This is also why it was never meant as a professionnal reply to the questions as I do not have the time for such things now. The verse gives "surplus", and thus refutes the concept of a fixed amount of 2,5%, this was the only point I tried to make. I agree with the scholar's opinion that the amount should be fixed according to the need of the State.
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Peace Rajah,
My post was just a short reply to the questions. It is just a mix of verses and snippits from some articles. This is also why it was never meant as a professionnal reply to the questions as I do not have the time for such things now. The verse gives "surplus", and thus refutes the concept of a fixed amount of 2,5%, this was the only point I tried to make. I agree with the scholar's opinion that the amount should be fixed according to the need of the State.
Dear ;
Here two vital questions arise• If you are ordered to spend whatever is surplus (Islamic state will implement it) then what is the motive one is going to "earn " and struggle for more .
If you are going to spend all more than your needs ,where goes the inheritance ?•
Just waiting for reply
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Peace,
The Quran says that Muslims rather spend on others then on themselves as they get Paradise in return. Never read the Quran? It's main subject is spending on others...
9111 Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme."
The Muslim State will decide the tax, as any other nation does, according to the needs of the State. The difference is with a Muslims, is that the people will try to invest even more then just beyond the normal tax. The development of Mankind is their main goal.
1317 He sent down water from the sky, so valleys flowed according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewellery or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manor that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits mankind, it remains in the Earth. It is such that God cites the examples.
But they of course never spent in such a way that they become poor themselves or that their kin is left helpless after their death. The normal spendings, inheritance and so on are first taken care off before they spend on the State.
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Peace,
The Quran says that Muslims rather spend on others then on themselves as they get Paradise in return. Never read the Quran? It's main subject is spending on others...
9111 Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme."
The Muslim State will decide the tax, as any other nation does, according to the needs of the State. The difference is with a Muslims, is that the people will try to invest even more then just beyond the normal tax. The development of Mankind is their main goal.
1317 He sent down water from the sky, so valleys flowed according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewellery or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manor that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits mankind, it remains in the Earth. It is such that God cites the examples.
But they of course never spent in such a way that they become poor themselves or that their kin is left helpless after their death. The normal spendings, inheritance and so on are first taken care off before they spend on the State.
Dear
Again you have evaded my questions as usual.I repeat them ;
Why should a person earn more than his need? what is the insentive?
If he has no property ,what about inheritance ? -
Peace,
I actually think that by making more than what you need creates more poor people. Maybe a few should be rich, but only those that are responsible. Even so, if they are rich, they probably wouldnt live that way but use the money for better reasons.
Peace
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Peace,
The answer is pretty clear and I have already provided the answer, because a Muslim should strive for the benefit of Mankind. This is the way to earn Jannah. The Quran is completely clear in this.
If there is no property, then there is also no inheritance. Then the widow and children that are left behind fall under the care of the Islamic State if they can't take care of themselves.
116 And there is not a creature on Earth except that its provision is due from God....
1731...We shall provide for you and them....
5119 An in their money was a portion for the beggar and the needy.
2215 They ask you what they should spend, Say "What you spend out of goodness should go to your family and the relatives and the orphans/widows/people left alone in society, and the needy, and the wayfarer. And any good you do, God is fully aware of it."
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Peace,
The answer is pretty clear and I have already provided the answer, because a Muslim should strive for the benefit of Mankind. This is the way to earn Jannah. The Quran is completely clear in this.
If there is no property, then there is also no inheritance. Then the widow and children that are left behind fall under the care of the Islamic State if they can't take care of themselves.
116 And there is not a creature on Earth except that its provision is due from God....
1731...We shall provide for you and them....
5119 An in their money was a portion for the beggar and the needy.
2215 They ask you what they should spend, Say "What you spend out of goodness should go to your family and the relatives and the orphans/widows/people left alone in society, and the needy, and the wayfarer. And any good you do, God is fully aware of it."
Dear Brother
The things are not as simple as you are thinking.
Income of the any state depends on the Income tax from the citizens.Income tax is imposed in the income of the people.If the people earn only that much as for their needs fulfillment,how can state earn money from them.Then how the state will run day to day business.
If anyone has just for his own needs then how will he be able to pay Zakaat.
It is very easy to say "spend all of your surplus " .This aya is 100% correct the way you are interpreting ,it will lead to all of above complications.
The purpose of this Aya , you people cannot understand ,rest assure.If we cannot understand
1ifference between "giving a book" & teaching a book"
2That "Muarraf bilaam " words are not common nouns
3We interpret "baab Tafaul" in the light of 'baab Afaala"
How can we interpret such ayaas of the Holy Quran. -
Peace,
I just give an overall summarized conclusion from the Quran. The Quran gives the guidelines on what the focus should be for the people and the State. The direct details which you refer too must be decided by every new era of a nation, as every period has its own needs and circumstances.
But your example is a complete contradiction and illogical and is also never claimed to be correct by any of us. You say
--> Nation lives on incometax.
--> People only earn what they need. Who said this? The Quran says they must give what they do NOT need.
--> Nation cannot get money from people as all earn what they need.How you came to this conclusion eludes me, but it does not matter, the point is. No, I never believed this or said this. I have not specialized myself in the sciences of economy, but a income-tax income is already a taking into the surplus. Minimum wages are wages without any real income tax or even none. God points to a goal we must reach. The details must be figure out by the Ummah and the government. The Goverment can decide to a fixed amount it needs, and the people are urged to give more of their surplus to invest more in the Ummah.
The goals are easy, everyone must be taken care off, it must be spend on that which benefits mankind and the State. In this way everyone in the State lives in peace and equality as wealth keeps circulating.
The Hadith and Fiqh literature are very contradicting on these matters and there is no real agreement on what the rules should be. This is because most of these texts and interpretations were made in the Middle ages under the ruling of kings. We live in different times and only the Quran is timeless, all else is history we can learn from, but are not limited by it.
Pertaining to Economy by G.A.Parwez
- The basic duty of an Islamic State, as ordained in the Holy Quran is provision of 'ZAKAAT'. Thus it is said
(2241) "Those Mu'mineen are the people who if We grant them rule in the land, establish the way of life consistent with the Divine Laws and provide 'Zakaat'", means to provide 'Zakaat'.
Thus the providing of Zakaat is the duty of an Islamic State. 'Zakaat' means the providing of the means of nourishment. As such it becomes incumbent upon the Islamic State to provide means of nourishment to the individuals, which includes both nourishment of the body as well as of the human potentialities. Thus it becomes the duty of an Islamic State to make such arrangements that the fulfillment of the basic necessities of life of each individual shall keep going, and also that their potentialities may develop. This is called 'Rabubiyyat' (providing of sustenance). The 'Rabubiyyat' of the entire universe is an attribute of Allah. The words Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
(11) make the beginning of the Quranic text. But the practical application of this attribute of Allah , in the human world, takes its practical manifestation through the agency of an Islamic State. Thus all the responsibilities, in this respect, which Allah has taken upon Himself, are fulfilled by the Islamic State.- Based on this principle, it becomes the responsibility of an Islamic State that no living object (human beings; may also include animals, in its domain, remains devoid of nourishment.
(116) is Allah's commandment, which means that there is no moving creature* on earth, but its sustenance is the responsibility of Allah.
In this respect the State becomes responsible to its individuals and their progeny for the fulfillment of their daily necessities of life; and tells them
(1731) "We are responsible for your sustenance and that of your offsprings."
- The Islamic social order takes shape by means of a contract between the State and the individuals living in its domain. In this contract, the life and property of the believers are placed at the disposal of the state and in lieu of it, becomes the responsibility of the state to provide a life of peace and plenty (life of Jannat) to the individuals
(9111) "The Mu'mineen (those who profess Eemaan-belief in Allah) and the Divine Order enter into a treaty; the Mu'mineen place their persons and their wealth at the disposal of the Divine Order (sell them) and the Divine Order guarantees a life of peace and plenty (life of Paradise) for them in return."
In this life of Paradise are included all the basic necessities of life, food, clothing, shelter etc. The Quran has introduced to us the paradisiacal life as follows
(20118-119) "There is therein (enough provision) for you not to go hungry, nor to go naked, nor to suffer from thirst from the sun's heat". (Everything mentioned above is available without any undue labour).
- In this society every individual retains for himself the proceeds of his labour according to his needs and gives over the rest of it for fulfilling the needs of others
(2219) "(O Rasool!) They ask you as to how much (of their earnings) should they keep open for fulfilling the needs of the others; tell them whatever is over and above their (genuine) needs (1671)". This system shall be established through the agency of the State; because the Rasoole has been ordained
(7199) "Get the surplus from them". (This is the natural result of the above said treaty covenant _ therefore the question of taking by force does not arise). Those who earn less than their needs, or those who are not capable of putting in labour, do not take it by way of charity but they claim it as a matter of their right, from the collected surplus
(5119) "In their wealth and possessions is the recognised right of the needy and the disabled."
- According to the Economic System of the Quran, wealth cannot be accumulated. A severe warning has been given against accumulating wealth
(934-35) "O Rasool! These priests and monks, and their followers who (in the guise of their self-made 'Shariat' consider the system of capitalism as the will of Allah, and thus hoard heaps of gold and silver and do not make them available to the usage of humanity, announce unto them a grievous penalty. During the period of Divine System, these will be heated in the fire of Jahannam (hell), heat will be produced out of that wealth and with it their foreheads will be branded, their flanks and their backs and this fire shall mount to their hearts (1046-7) They shall be told, this is the treasure you had hoarded for yourself, so now taste (the treasure) you had buried.
Wealthy cannot be allowed to circulate wealth amongst themselves alone
(597) That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.
- To meet emergent needs, it is necessary for the people that whatever they have retained for their own requirements, they shall also donate something out of it. This is known as 'Sadaqaat'. This will also not be an individual affair; it shall be carried out under the System of the State. Thus the Rasoole was ordained
(9103) "Take their donations (out of their earnings) and in association with other members, make arrangements for their education which would purify them (by removing all doubts from their minds) and nourish them. As they grow in their qualities, you should applaud them because your applause will certainly bring them peace of mind. Allah is All-Hearing and All-Knowing."
In some cases the avenues of usage of such emergency needs have been prescribed by the Quran itself, when it is said
(960) "About 'Sadaqaat' i.e. wealth which the state spends for public welfare, it ought to be understood that its distribution shall not mean personal benefit or satisfaction of the individual emotions, but it is the right of those
a) Who depend on others for their nourishment i.e. those who, for some reason, are not able to earn themselves
b) Whose business somehow or other comes to a standstill.
c) For the remuneration of those who are entrusted with the duty of collecting 'Sadaqaat' (the source of state revenue).
d) Whose consolation of hearts' is required. It means that those people who are prepared to join the Divine System but some impediments do not allow them to take this course; they should be helped in the removal of these impediments.
e) To get freedom for those fastened to the chains of other's captivity (subjugation).
f) To help those who are under the enemy's debt or penalty, and cannot manage to pay it off on their own.
g) Also the wayfarers who are in need of money.
h) In addition to the above, anything conducive and helpful to the general welfare of humanity by the Divine System.
Described above are the codes laid down by Allah based on knowledge and wisdom.
In this verse the item of 'in the Divine Cause' is very comprehensive. It includes all other avenues of usage, which the Islamic State deems necessary.
Note Amongst us the above items are known as items of Zakaat expenditure. This is not correct. The Quran has clearly described them as item of 'Sadaqaat' and not of 'Zakaat'. Even the prevalent concept of 'Zakaat' itself is different from the Quranic concept.
- Earth (Land) is the basic source of production. Because an Islamic State has the momentous responsibility of provision of 'Zakaat' to fulfil, therefore this basic source of production (the land) cannot remain in the ownership of individuals. Land remains under the charge of the State, so that the needs of the individuals may get equally fulfilled. In Surah Haa-Meem Sajdah (41st Chapter of the Quran) it is said
(4110) "He set on the earth mountains standing firm, standing high above its surface, (which serve as means of water supply) and gave it the capability to produce different items and with the change of four seasons standardised** its produce correctly, for feeding its inhabitants. (3967) and (5673-74).
Note It has been clarified at several places in the Quran, that the earth has been created to fulfil the requirements of humanity. As an all-encompassing explanation of this topic is not intended in this book, therefore it is not considered quoting all the relevant references, however, see verses (5510); (5663-73).
- In the Economic System of Islam (except those who are disabled) only that person has the right to receive who puts in labour
(5339) "That a man can have nothing, but what he strives for", is its basic principle. As described earlier under the heading 'usury', any profit on the capital is totally unlawful and amounts to declaration of war against Allah and the Divine System of His Rasool. As a matter of fact, the question of profit on capital does not arise when nothing surplus to the needs is left with anybody."
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As said earlier in item (4) above, in the Islamic Order surplus wealth is not left with any person. Thus the question of raising personal property does not arise, which includes land, wealth, industry, trade, etc. Everything remains in the custody of the State, so that the needs of every individual get fulfilled and their standard of living goes on rising, and then eventually this system, surpassing its boundaries, extends to embrace humanity at large.
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It shall be the duty of an Islamic State to establish such an economic system in the light of this basic guidance of the Holy Quran which can satisfy all the requisites of 'Rabubiyyat', so that nourishment is neither held back from anybody, nor his dignity is injured. This system shall gradually come into force. The Quranic injunctions relating to charity, inheritance, etc. are of transitory nature for the period in which this system is still taking shape and is not yet finalised. This also ought to be kept in mind that this system shall be established by those who consider it a part of their belief and yearning of their hearts. This is the motive force for its establishment and stability. In the absence of such a driving force, a system of this kind can neither get established, no can it survive.
- It happens doubtful to assume that an Islamic State can take up the responsibility of providing nourishment to moving creatures, such as dogs and reptiles in its domain. (Abdul Wadud).
** To interpret the word as (Arba' Ayyaam) change of four seasons is not comprehensive. Following is the full explanation. The terms (Arba' Ayyaam) and (Umeen) are specific Quranic terms. They represent the Six Eras of Evolution in the creation of heavens and the Earth.
(2 ERAS
"So He completed them as several heavens in 2 Eras (4112)"
Thus (Umain) 2 ERAS -- includes the evolutionary period involved in the Creation of the heavens and the earth.
On earth the period without life lasted for 3000 million years and science calls it the Azoic Period."He made on the earth mountains standing high above it and bestowed blessings on it and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion in four Eras" (4110)
In these four Eras, life began on earth and gradually got evolved and this has lasted for 2000 millions years
(a) Precambrian Eras 1500 million years
(b) Paleozoic Era or Ancient life -- 300 million years
(c) Nezozoic Era or Middle life -- 130 millions years
(d) Cainozoic or Modern life -- started 75 million years ago.Source
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/QL/QL_14.htm -
Dear
This is the basic point where GA Pervaiz has not been able to give the solution.
My question is why should a person earn more than his needs when he knows it is not going to stay with him? What is the incentive for him for earning?
He earns just for needs so
-No money for income tax
-No money to help the poor
-No money to inherit
So simple
State collapses
Note If you think I have not read G.A pervaiz ,then remove this doubt from mind.Once He was my favorite for a long time.I know him (May Allah rest his soul) him and his thoughts very well.I have all of his literature.
When I compare his knowledge and the way his followers are posting here ,there is 180 degree turn in the knowledge.No comparison.But he was a human being.He comitted some very serious mistakes in his interpretations. -
Peace,
My question is why should a person earn more than his needs when he knows it is not going to stay with him? What is the incentive for him for earning?
Answer
9111 Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme."For me this is enough of an answer...
Of course Parwez made mistakes, as for him being right or wrong, the future will tell, also his ideas are also constained in time. Nobody knows really his toughts but Parwez himself, for the rest it is all interpretation of his ideas. His understanding of the economy was very influenced by communist thinking. This is also why I only posted the part that is about the GOAL of Zakaat and not the method, the method must be decided by the State and the people as this is the way of the Islamic system going back to the Prophet.
I can hardly believe there are any real "followers" of Parwez here. Most people here are individual thinkers and researchers. Some are influenced by scholars, others come to the same conclusion. There is also no agreement on many subjects, as this is no community but a gathering of thinkers. Nothing more. So trying to label people is a waste of time. We all agree on the basis of Islam, the Quran, thus we are Muslims. In all groups within Islam there is disagreement and so labelling is nonsense in my point of view, seeing the Quran as the only authority is an interpretation, seeing multiple sources as authorities is an interpretation. The only real proof is to see what works in the present life, the here and now.
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Peace,
Answer
9111 Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme."For me this is enough of an answer...
Of course Parwez made mistakes, as for him being right or wrong, the future will tell, also his ideas are also constained in time. Nobody knows really his toughts but Parwez himself, for the rest it is all interpretation of his ideas. His understanding of the economy was very influenced by communist thinking. This is also why I only posted the part that is about the GOAL of Zakaat and not the method, the method must be decided by the State and the people as this is the way of the Islamic system going back to the Prophet.
I can hardly believe there are any real "followers" of Parwez here. Most people here are individual thinkers and researchers. Some are influenced by scholars, others come to the same conclusion. There is also no agreement on many subjects, as this is no community but a gathering of thinkers. Nothing more. So trying to label people is a waste of time. We all agree on the basis of Islam, the Quran, thus we are Muslims. In all groups within Islam there is disagreement and so labelling is nonsense in my point of view, seeing the Quran as the only authority is an interpretation, seeing multiple sources as authorities is an interpretation. The only real proof is to see what works in the present life, the here and now.
Dear Brother
To be a thinker of the Holy Quran
-One should have very sound knowledge of Arabic Surf,Nahw,and Balagha
-Good knowledge of Vocabulary of Classical Arabic
-Good knowledge of those circumstances in which These Ayaat were revealed ,so that one should know the background.
-Good knowledge of different usages of the classical phrases.- Good knowledge of that literature which one apparently thinks that it opposes his ideas.Unless one knows thoroughly about X, and Y how can one judge and compare beween X and Y?
Honestly speaking I do not find any "thinker" over here (including) myself.
- Good knowledge of that literature which one apparently thinks that it opposes his ideas.Unless one knows thoroughly about X, and Y how can one judge and compare beween X and Y?
