Questions for Quran upholders

Wakas

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg29090#msg29090

arnoldyasin

Peace,

My question is why should a person earn more than his needs when he knows it is not going to stay with him? What is the incentive for him for earning?

Answer
9111 Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme."

For me this is enough of an answer...

Of course Parwez made mistakes, as for him being right or wrong, the future will tell, also his ideas are also constained in time. Nobody knows really his toughts but Parwez himself, for the rest it is all interpretation of his ideas. His understanding of the economy was very influenced by communist thinking. This is also why I only posted the part that is about the GOAL of Zakaat and not the method, the method must be decided by the State and the people as this is the way of the Islamic system going back to the Prophet.

I can hardly believe there are any real "followers" of Parwez here. Most people here are individual thinkers and researchers. Some are influenced by scholars, others come to the same conclusion. There is also no agreement on many subjects, as this is no community but a gathering of thinkers. Nothing more. So trying to label people is a waste of time. We all agree on the basis of Islam, the Quran, thus we are Muslims. In all groups within Islam there is disagreement and so labelling is nonsense in my point of view, seeing the Quran as the only authority is an interpretation, seeing multiple sources as authorities is an interpretation. The only real proof is to see what works in the present life, the here and now.

Leoxyz

Peace,

Answer
9111 Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme."

For me this is enough of an answer...

Of course Parwez made mistakes, as for him being right or wrong, the future will tell, also his ideas are also constained in time. Nobody knows really his toughts but Parwez himself, for the rest it is all interpretation of his ideas. His understanding of the economy was very influenced by communist thinking. This is also why I only posted the part that is about the GOAL of Zakaat and not the method, the method must be decided by the State and the people as this is the way of the Islamic system going back to the Prophet.

I can hardly believe there are any real "followers" of Parwez here. Most people here are individual thinkers and researchers. Some are influenced by scholars, others come to the same conclusion. There is also no agreement on many subjects, as this is no community but a gathering of thinkers. Nothing more. So trying to label people is a waste of time. We all agree on the basis of Islam, the Quran, thus we are Muslims. In all groups within Islam there is disagreement and so labelling is nonsense in my point of view, seeing the Quran as the only authority is an interpretation, seeing multiple sources as authorities is an interpretation. The only real proof is to see what works in the present life, the here and now.

Dear Brother
To be a thinker of the Holy Quran
-One should have very sound knowledge of Arabic Surf,Nahw,and Balagha
-Good knowledge of Vocabulary of Classical Arabic
-Good knowledge of those circumstances in which These Ayaat were revealed ,so that one should know the background.
-Good knowledge of different usages of the classical phrases.

Good knowledge of that literature which one apparently thinks that it opposes his ideas.Unless one knows thoroughly about X, and Y how can one judge and compare beween X and Y?
Honestly speaking I do not find any "thinker" over here (including) myself.

unknownuser

Peace, Leoxyz

Does Aisha Musa count as a "thinker"?

DR. AISHA MUSA is an Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies in the Department of Religious Studies at FIU. She received her PhD in Arabic and Islamic Studies from the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University. Her forthcoming book, 'Hadith as Scripture,' explores the development of the doctrine of duality of revelation and issues surrounding the relative authority of the Quran and the Prophetic Traditions in Islam.

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/aisha.htm

Also, what is your opinion of 316?

Hope this isn't too off-topic, apologies.

Leoxyz

Peace, Leoxyz

Does Aisha Musa count as a "thinker"?

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/aisha.htm

Also, what is your opinion of 316?

Hope this isn't too off-topic, apologies.

Peace
I have not seen any posting by her.I have talked all those posts which I have come across.
As far opinion about the Aya is concerned ,I am not a scholar that I can comment on it.I am a learner and trying to learn.

unknownuser

Which is why I asked what is your opinion of it )

Raj-ah

Leo

Dear Brother
To be a thinker of the Holy Quran
-One should have very sound knowledge of Arabic Surf,Nahw,and Balagha
-Good knowledge of Vocabulary of Classical Arabic
-Good knowledge of those circumstances in which These Ayaat were revealed ,so that one should know the background.
-Good knowledge of different usages of the classical phrases.

Good knowledge of that literature which one apparently thinks that it opposes his ideas.Unless one knows thoroughly about X, and Y how can one judge and compare beween X and Y?
Honestly speaking I do not find any "thinker" over here (including) myself.

Strange? how do you describe "thinker"? dear Leo
I think the qualities you mentioned above at least G.A Parvez fits there, but you even disagree with him, I am wondering how a "non-thinker" can disagree with a "thinker" or criticise a "thinker" or even pass a comment on "thinker" according to you, yourself are a "non-thinker", so I "think" we all should "think" about this matter of "thinkers" and "non thinkers" seriously and try to become "thinkers" by studying Arabic. hmm

Leoxyz

Leo
Strange? how do you describe "thinker"? dear Leo
I think the qualities you mentioned above at least G.A Parvez fits there, but you even disagree with him, I am wondering how a "non-thinker" can disagree with a "thinker" or criticise a "thinker" or even pass a comment on "thinker" according to you, yourself are a "non-thinker", so I "think" we all should "think" about this matter of "thinkers" and "non thinkers" seriously and try to become "thinkers" by studying Arabic. hmm

Agreed he was a thinker and I do respect him as a scholar.But unfortunaltely ,he was a human being and he comitted certain mistakes to promote some of his misconceived ideas.
One frank example is here of a topic in which he translated
= He gives them the book.
This is intellectual dishonesty.
I challenge you and all the followers of him to prove this translation from any Arabic dictionary.

unknownuser

One frank example is here of a topic in which he translated
= He gives them the book.
This is intellectual dishonesty.
I challenge you and all the followers of him to prove this translation from any Arabic dictionary.

Arabic dictionaries may be helpful although they?re not Qur?an and there are terms whose roots will not always convey best meaning (e.g. borrowed words such as 1051 alfeeli ?The Elephant? from Persian or 302 alrroomu ?The Romans? and other metaphoric terms) with context/cross reference within Qur?an our best friend to understanding.

WayuAAallimuhu alkitaba waalhikmata waalttawrata waalinjeela
348 And He teaches/instructs him The Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.

Ponder ? how God gives/conveys/teaches/instructs The Book in above verse.

Kama arsalna feekum rasoolan minkum yatloo AAalaykum ayatina wayuzakkeekum wayuAAallimukumu alkitaba waalhikmata wayuAAallimukum ma lam takoonoo taAAlamoona
2151 As We sent in you a messenger from you, he reads/recites on you Our verses/evidences and he purifies you and he teaches you The Book and the wisdom, and he teaches you what you were not knowing.

?wayuAAallimukumu Allahu waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
2282 ?and God teaches/instructs you, and God (is) with every thing knowledgeable.

Thus conveyance/giving/teaching is exactly the same to all ? Qur?an is recited and we are to contemplate over it.

Is not the above what we are doing now?

None is "buying" hadith ?idle tales? here, most of which ridicule, mislead, and cast doubt on the religion.

Peace

Leoxyz

Arabic dictionaries may be helpful although they?re not Qur?an and there are terms whose roots will not always convey best meaning (e.g. borrowed words such as 1051 alfeeli ?The Elephant? from Persian or 302 alrroomu ?The Romans? and other metaphoric terms) with context/cross reference within Qur?an our best friend to understanding.

WayuAAallimuhu alkitaba waalhikmata waalttawrata waalinjeela
348 And He teaches/instructs him The Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.

Ponder ? how God gives/conveys/teaches/instructs The Book in above verse.

Kama arsalna feekum rasoolan minkum yatloo AAalaykum ayatina wayuzakkeekum wayuAAallimukumu alkitaba waalhikmata wayuAAallimukum ma lam takoonoo taAAlamoona
2151 As We sent in you a messenger from you, he reads/recites on you Our verses/evidences and he purifies you and he teaches you The Book and the wisdom, and he teaches you what you were not knowing.

?wayuAAallimukumu Allahu waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
2282 ?and God teaches/instructs you, and God (is) with every thing knowledgeable.

Thus conveyance/giving/teaching is exactly the same to all ? Qur?an is recited and we are to contemplate over it.

Is not the above what we are doing now?

None is "buying" hadith ?idle tales? here, most of which ridicule, mislead, and cast doubt on the religion.

Peace

Dear Brother
So you agree That word "yuallimu" in Aya

2129

Means Teaches the book not "giving the book"

Let me clear another misconception.If some word is then it may have some significance for some language crazy person but it does not have impact in our discussion because once Arabs started using that word ,no matter in which way' we have to follow that "meaning".That is why it is must to know "classical Arabic".
We should know in which sense arabs were using that word when the Holy Quran was revealed.
Notelease do not put many "slashes" it by itself show "dispersion of mind" and that you are not sure.Always try to put single word.This is a sort of "decieving" to put many words in slashes in so many places.

Thank you very much for agreeing

unknownuser

Dear Brother
So you agree That word "yuallimu" in Aya

2129

Means Teaches the book not "giving the book"

No dear brother teaches can also mean giving information, for example

1883 They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

Similarly, in 2129 people are taught/given guidance using verses in Qur?an?

2129 Our Lord, and send in them a messenger from them (who) reads/recites on (to) them Your verses/evidences and He teaches/instructs them The Book, and the wisdom, and purifies them, that You are the glorious/mighty the wise/ judicious.

The reason traditionalists like the general teach is to imply it means everything; how to sleep, eat, drink, walk, have sex, urinate, trim a beard to fist length, etc. Btw, what?s the stance on American Indians who embrace Islam; will they be considered less manly due to their hairless faces?

In addition, meanings can be derived with only basic knowledge using cross-reference and common sense.
The Rosetta Stone is one example and here is another using Qur?an?

Yusuf (Joseph) 126

Wakathalika yajtabeeka rabbuka wayuAAallimuka min ta/weeli al-ahadeethi wayutimmu niAAmatahu AAalayka waAAala ali yaAAqooba kama atammaha AAala abawayka min qablu ibraheema wa-ishaqa inna rabbaka AAaleemun hakeemun

And as/like that your Lord chooses/purifies you and teaches/informs you from the information's/speech's interpretation/explanation, and He completes His blessing on you, and on Jacob's family, as/like He completed it on your fathers (forefathers) before, Abraham, and Isaac, that your Lord (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

Teaches/informs above also means giving knowledge and when Qur?an says

381 Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

The above is not only about giving a literal book, rather The Wisdom to understand which is a gift from God and cannot be taught by anyone other than God.

Surah 55. The Beneficent, The Mercy Giving

((Allah)) Most Gracious!
It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
He has created man
He has taught him speech (and intelligence).

Surah 41. (signs) Spelled Out, Ha-mim

Ha Mim
A Revelation from ((Allah)), Most Gracious, Most Merciful;-
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-
Giving good news and admonition yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not.

Peace

hlatif

Salam all,

The literal translation of Yuallimuhu is= Make him know. When you give a book to someone, you do not necessarily make them know it. So, a person that God sends to us to "make us know" the book, does not only deliver, but does more than that. However, if you guys want God to send us a parrot to "deliver the book" as the meaning of "make us know" then you are, in your effort to defend your false ideology, making God does a bad job and send people who just deliver a book with no commentary nor teaching. That is sad.

Take care all

Hussein

unknownuser

Salam all,

The literal translation of Yuallimuhu is= Make him know. When you give a book to someone, you do not necessarily make them know it. So, a person that God sends to us to "make us know" the book, does not only deliver, but does more than that. However, if you guys want God to send us a parrot to "deliver the book" as the meaning of "make us know" then you are, in your effort to defend your false ideology, making God does a bad job and send people who just deliver a book with no commentary nor teaching. That is sad.

Take care all

Hussein

How much more than that; where do we draw the parrot line?
Do you have examples of commentary to follow not explained in Qur?an?

Did you skip this?

Surah 41. (signs) Spelled Out, Ha-mim

Ha Mim
A Revelation from ((Allah)), Most Gracious, Most Merciful;-
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-
Giving good news and admonition yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not.

What is sad, are the vile mullahs currently teaching the religion.

I?d rather listen to a parrot.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzGNqDJO1Aw

Masha'Allah! )

Peace

Leoxyz

No dear brother teaches can also mean giving information, for example

1883 They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

Similarly, in 2129 people are taught/given guidance using verses in Qur?an?

2129 Our Lord, and send in them a messenger from them (who) reads/recites on (to) them Your verses/evidences and He teaches/instructs them The Book, and the wisdom, and purifies them, that You are the glorious/mighty the wise/ judicious.

The reason traditionalists like the general teach is to imply it means everything; how to sleep, eat, drink, walk, have sex, urinate, trim a beard to fist length, etc. Btw, what?s the stance on American Indians who embrace Islam; will they be considered less manly due to their hairless faces?

In addition, meanings can be derived with only basic knowledge using cross-reference and common sense.
The Rosetta Stone is one example and here is another using Qur?an?

Yusuf (Joseph) 126

Wakathalika yajtabeeka rabbuka wayuAAallimuka min ta/weeli al-ahadeethi wayutimmu niAAmatahu AAalayka waAAala ali yaAAqooba kama atammaha AAala abawayka min qablu ibraheema wa-ishaqa inna rabbaka AAaleemun hakeemun

And as/like that your Lord chooses/purifies you and teaches/informs you from the information's/speech's interpretation/explanation, and He completes His blessing on you, and on Jacob's family, as/like He completed it on your fathers (forefathers) before, Abraham, and Isaac, that your Lord (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

Teaches/informs above also means giving knowledge and when Qur?an says

381 Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

The above is not only about giving a literal book, rather The Wisdom to understand which is a gift from God and cannot be taught by anyone other than God.

Surah 55. The Beneficent, The Mercy Giving

((Allah)) Most Gracious!
It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
He has created man
He has taught him speech (and intelligence).

Surah 41. (signs) Spelled Out, Ha-mim

Ha Mim
A Revelation from ((Allah)), Most Gracious, Most Merciful;-
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-
Giving good news and admonition yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not.

Peace

Dear Brother
I should say
2156
Look at your referred Aya;Either you people give no reference at all or give it wrongly.Why so I do not know.

1883
(1883) And O Muhammad, they ask you about Zul-Qarnain *61 tell them, "I am going to recite to you an account of him

Where is the verb " " is used in this Aya.
This is the "modes Operandi" which is being displayed persistently.
Should I call it another example of intellectual dishonesty (sorry to say)

unknownuser

Peace,

Dear Brother
I should say
2156
Look at your referred Aya;Either you people give no reference at all or give it wrongly.Why so I do not know.

1883
(1883) And O Muhammad, they ask you about Zul-Qarnain *61 tell them, "I am going to recite to you an account of him

Where is the verb " " is used in this Aya.
This is the "modes Operandi" which is being displayed persistently.
Should I call it another example of intellectual dishonesty (sorry to say)

That was NOT an example of how teach is used in Qur?an.

That was an example of how Qur?an teaches!

I could have used 100s of verses and chose that one at random; how many times does ?say? or qul appear in Qur?an once again?

It was to show how Qur?an is detailed and explains its own self; whom to marry; help orphans, be a good person, and countless other instructions and stories about the lives of Prophets. Not sure why I have to state the obvious; you do read Qur'an right?

Now, do you want to explain the exact meaning of this verse...

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/41/41_3.htm

Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu quranan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona
413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

How come you never answer any questions or only answer with more questions?

This is what I?ve encountered with Christian fanatics while asking them a simple question

Why does God need to pray; and to Himself?

Then nothing only more questions and diversionary tactics usually bringing up ridiculous hadith.

unknownuser

Surah 41. (signs) Spelled Out, Ha-mim

Ha Mim
A Revelation from ((Allah)), Most Gracious, Most Merciful;-
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-
Giving good news and admonition yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not.
In 412, I don't think 'tanzeelun' means revelation but rather "appeared from/came from". The word 'fusilat' in 413 can mean clear/plain and not "explained in detail" and the word 'yaAlamoon' can mean "knowing" or "who knows".
Appeared/came from most gracious, most merciful.
A book whose verses were clear/plain; an Arabic reading to people knowing/who knows.

Changes the context and understanding somewhat, if I am not mistaken. -X

Leoxyz

Peace,

That was NOT an example of how teach is used in Qur?an.

That was an example of how Qur?an teaches!

I could have used 100s of verses and chose that one at random; how many times does ?say? or qul appear in Qur?an once again?

It was to show how Qur?an is detailed and explains its own self; whom to marry; help orphans, be a good person, and countless other instructions and stories about the lives of Prophets. Not sure was I have to state the obvious; you do read Qur'an right?

Now, do you want to explain the exact meaning of this verse...

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/41/41_3.htm

Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu quranan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona
413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

How come you never answer any questions or only answer with more questions?

This is what I?ve encountered with Christian fanatics while asking them a simple question

Why does God need to pray; and to Himself?

Then nothing only more questions and diversionary tactics usually bringing up ridiculous hadith.

Dear Brother
Again not true You are saying that ,

"That was NOT an example of how teach is used in Qur?an.

That was an example of how Qur?an teaches!"

And you brought it under the discussion of verb "yullimu"
Why so ?
while the exact word in your previous post were

No dear brother teaches can also mean giving information, for example

1883 They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

Here you want to tell me that word " is used for teaching ?? If so ,prove it dear

You said

How come you never answer any questions or only answer with more questions?

The reason is very simple This is modes operandi of the Quranists to divert the dicussion.For example here we are disussing the meaning of "Yuallim" but you have put another Aya as a question .We can discuss that also after this word is decided.
Aya under discusssion is

2129
It has verbs related to our discussion

And three objects

Please give their separate meanings ,so we discuss them in our next session .

Navid

In 412, I don't think 'tanzeelun' means revelation but rather "appeared from/came from". The word 'fusilat' in 413 can mean clear/plain and not "explained in detail" and the word 'yaAlamoon' can mean "knowing" or "who knows".

Appeared/came from most gracious, most merciful.
A book whose verses were clear/plain; an Arabic reading to people knowing/who knows.

Changes the context and understanding somewhat, if I am not mistaken. -X

"Fusilat" means "detailed." "Fasala" can mean "make clear."

unknownuser

"Fusilat" means "detailed." "Fasala" can mean "make clear."
I thought "fassalna" meant detailed/explained and fasala being a derivative of fusilat meaning clearer, clearly or made plainer/plainly.

Navid

I thought "fassalna" meant detailed/explained and fasala being a derivative of fusilat meaning clearer, clearly or made plainer/plainly.

FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish, set a limit, part, depart, decide, set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained
FUSSILAT Detailed
MUFASSALAT Fully detailed