webcast about Sunni jurist interpretation of "no compulsion in deen" verse
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Peace "Bigmo",
JK- I think your missing one basic principle of the Quran namely tht GOD IS DOING EVERYTHING. So yes he even controls thing THROUGH HUMANS AND THEIR AFFAIRS. He has calculated everything in advance and everything be it seemngly fair or unfair has its purpose or reason though we might not understand it at any particular time. Now lets get back to the legal laws mentioned in the Quran. Here read these
The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
So who gave this law? GOD directly through inspiration as you can see from the phrase. Its Divine with high prob since its in the Quran, the book which has never been scientifically falsified though it is potentially extremely falsifiable.
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred LASHES. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.*
Those who accuse chaste women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty LASHES, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
So you see now? What do you say now?JK- Excuse me your going with hadith now. Where do u get all this info from? Whenever GOD issued a LOCAL COMMANDMENT He said so like
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
The above verses are for ALL BELEIVERS otherwise GOD would have made it clear and said ending it "These were the laws we appointed for Muhammad at a certain time" or something similar in order for us to know they aint universal. If thts not the case then this means GOD is confusing us.JK- Im not. Im always pro democracy but tht doesnt mean i shld give up my views. Wer not to introduce those laws by force. Nobody said so but wer to do our best to put these laws into constituion through debate and dialogue. Who says we need to agree with wht the majority says? No one. We only need to tolerate it meaning not use violence against it. GOD Bless!
The Quran did say Islam is a deen, it did say that the deen with God is Islam and it did say that God Has completed our deen. So you made it a deen and a state, and then you went out of your way compiling and collecting hadiths to find a way to create that state since the Quran was very vague about many issues even though neither the prophet nor his companions left behind them any hadiths. And now you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So who is to blame? hmm
Anyways the verse goes like this
5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime and Allah is Exalted in power.
5.39. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And
- The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
24.3. Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
24.7. And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
24.10. If it were not for Allah.s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
24.11. Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
24.12. Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie" ?
24.13. Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
So I see it as historical, many gossips and lies in a society like tribal Arabia where issues like this can mean conflicts or maybe even war between tribes. I see it as the accepted norm of the period and its culture. Its clear the Quran wanted to prohibit rumours and lies and tried to ensure no ftna can occur. Anyways as I said I find accepting the historicity of the 1st Madina state the hardest for Muslims to do.
So we are still &
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The Quran did say Islam is a deen, it did say that the deen with God is Islam and it did say that God Has completed our deen. So you made it a deen and a state, and then you went out of your way compiling and collecting hadiths to find a way to create that state since the Quran was very vague about many issues even though neither the prophet nor his companions left behind them any hadiths. And now you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
JK- And wht do u think deen is? Its a complete way of life. Its NOT RELIGION thts a false translation made by sectarians. Read bro Arnolds articles. Deen means judgement in the sense covers every aspect of life. And yes ppl dont need to accept GOD's system of justice but we must do to get it running through dialogue.
So I see it as historical, many gossips and lies in a society like tribal Arabia where issues like this can mean conflicts or maybe even war between tribes. I see it as the accepted norm of the period and its culture. Its clear the Quran wanted to prohibit rumours and lies and tried to ensure no ftna can occur. Anyways as I said I find accepting the historicity of the 1st Madina state the hardest for Muslims to do.
So we are still &
JK- These commands are not a historical documentation otherwise GOD wouldve made this clear at a later stage. You cant just sepcualte tht something is just a histrical narration without proof from the scripture itself. GOD Bless!
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The Quran did say Islam is a deen, it did say that the deen with God is Islam and it did say that God Has completed our deen. So you made it a deen and a state, and then you went out of your way compiling and collecting hadiths to find a way to create that state since the Quran was very vague about many issues even though neither the prophet nor his companions left behind them any hadiths. And now you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So who is to blame? hmm
Anyways the verse goes like this
5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime and Allah is Exalted in power.
5.39. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And
- The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
24.3. Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
24.7. And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
24.10. If it were not for Allah.s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
24.11. Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
24.12. Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie" ?
24.13. Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
So I see it as historical, many gossips and lies in a society like tribal Arabia where issues like this can mean conflicts or maybe even war between tribes. I see it as the accepted norm of the period and its culture. Its clear the Quran wanted to prohibit rumours and lies and tried to ensure no ftna can occur. Anyways as I said I find accepting the historicity of the 1st Madina state the hardest for Muslims to do.
So we are still &
Maybe you can do some research about it. See which verses in the Quran are historic such as God's command to prepare military equipment like horses and so on for battle.
Or God talking about creating for us cattle and so on so we can travel with. Or humans using stars and so for navigation. So don't you think flooging is something of history? Or God saying He likes people standing in battle in a straight line, today that will be a disaster. Does anybody has other examples?
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Peace "Bigmo",
Maybe you can do some research about it. See which verses in the Quran are historic such as God's command to prepare military equipment like horses and so on for battle.
JK- Horses and attle as millitary euqipment are just as an example but the general reparation is wht wer to focus on.
Or God talking about creating for us cattle and so on so we can travel with. Or humans using stars and so for navigation.
JK- Yes indeed GOD says He has created cattle from whose meat we can east and we MAY also use them for travel. This is not a command but a statement of fact of wht can be done with these animals and it acn still be done. Even the millitarty units many a times rides on horses when theyve to go through the jungle for example where other vehicles wont do very well. It all depends. Reg stars for navigation it also depends and GOD doesnt say you HAVE to use them. Its not a command just a description of their benefits and if we go into space into the future the stars maybe alot of help to su there too.
So don't you think flooging is something of history? Or God saying He likes people standing in battle in a straight line, today that will be a disaster. Does anybody has other examples?
JK- I see the flogging example as totally general though they maybe intererpeted as symbolic flogging INFRONT OF THE PUBLIC. Arnold Schwarzenegger also introduced public exposure of criminals. It puts them to real shame and works very well. And whts tht about straight line. Cld u quote the verse? GOD Bless!
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rotfl
There's no Compulsion in Islam means you should not force anyone to embrace Islam. It doesn't apply to Muslims as you can force a Muslim to practice if you are socially close to him in a way like how you sometimes in love force your reluctant guest to eat. Other Muslims you can force in a way the doctors force a child for a life-saving shot and if the parents of the child say don't force anyone for anything like that then the doctor cares the least about the shot though deeply worried about the child's life at its peril.
Coming to the distorted history forcefully-widely taught in all schools of the world been written by Prejudiced Europeans who hate Islam and Muslims, and the History written by Europeans who rape their own daughters and practice incest or at least do not mind their women having illicit sex, lacking high human respect, values, traits, ethics and ethiquettes, morally profligate and corrupt so much that their 70% children hardly know who one of their or both their parents is, cannot be true history. Also why should we Muslims believe in a history written by Europeans. -
rotfl
Also the Muslims who are Murthad or Leave Islam are a matter with Muslims. If an American Soldier in a Taliban uniform just standing before American Soldiers utters words like I will destroy America, then Imagine his condition in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. -
Peace "Zarbenifaq",
rotfl
Also the Muslims who are Murthad or Leave Islam are a matter with Muslims. If an American Soldier in a Taliban uniform just standing before American Soldiers utters words like I will destroy America, then Imagine his condition in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo.JK- Get real. Did you see the sectarian sunni/shia "Muslims" shouting in the streets of UK "Death to those who insult Islam. GOD Bless Hitler, etc". Here take a look at this
http//youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs&mode=related&search=
And NOT A SINGLE BRITISH POLICEMAN even touched them. So dont talk nonsense here. Moreover "murtad" means when one leaves Islam and then preaches his new religion to the people. Why the hell should such a person be killed? He hasnt harmed anyones life at all? So you better get your facts straight. GOD Bless! -
Britain, Canada, and dare I say, the USA, are closer to Islamic states than anything in the middle east or the rest of the world for that matter. Scandinavia and Mid-Europe probably fits the definition of "Quranic" best.
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Salaams All,
................ who are Murthad or Leave Islam are a matter with Muslims.
God allmighty would be ashamed for one of His creatures uttering such Heathenistic words- as though people own others of their cult - i think, and such nonsense must be shunned at all costs.
God Bless All.
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Peace "Bigmo",
JK- Horses and attle as millitary euqipment are just as an example but the general reparation is wht wer to focus on.
JK- Yes indeed GOD says He has created cattle from whose meat we can east and we MAY also use them for travel. This is not a command but a statement of fact of wht can be done with these animals and it acn still be done. Even the millitarty units many a times rides on horses when theyve to go through the jungle for example where other vehicles wont do very well. It all depends. Reg stars for navigation it also depends and GOD doesnt say you HAVE to use them. Its not a command just a description of their benefits and if we go into space into the future the stars maybe alot of help to su there too.
JK- I see the flogging example as totally general though they maybe intererpeted as symbolic flogging INFRONT OF THE PUBLIC. Arnold Schwarzenegger also introduced public exposure of criminals. It puts them to real shame and works very well. And whts tht about straight line. Cld u quote the verse? GOD Bless!
I don't know the verse, its about how God loves those who who fight for His sake as a staright line or something like that. Allah Knows Best.
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You should have understood why you should kill your father, had he left your mother.
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It's like as if a candle has been lit up flaming towards the anal holes of MZ and Johnny_k. Ha! Ha! Ha!