7 heavens
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Salaam Mazhar,
The only difference between the ?Sajda? of everything in Universe and that of human beings is kharru_ and touching their forehead on ground.
This is not relevant to the current discussion but since you are stating it as a fact, I wanted to point out that according to the Qur'aan, the physical aspect of "sujood" of humans to The God is supposed to be to the chin, not forehead
17107 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall (yakhirroona) to their chins (lilazqaan) prostrating."
17108 And they say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17109 And they fall (yakhirroona) to their chins (lilazqaan) crying, and it increases them in humility.The word used for forehead in the Qur'aan is "jabeen" (37103, 935), and is never used in the context of "sujood".
Please note that the Qur'aanic prostration is TO/WITH (LI) the chin and not UPON (3ALAA) the chin, so all that is required in the physical aspect of "sujood" to The God is to bring the chin nearer to the ground. Of course the mental aspect of "obedience" to The God is the more important aspect of "sujood", because without mental obedience, a physical sujood is useless.
The prostration upon the forehead is typical of the pagan prostration to their gods/godesses. For example, the Nabatean pagans used to prostrate to the cuboid idol of Allat upon their foreheads. Many Hindus also prostrate to their idols upon their foreheads.
Ghaalib says
kehte ho kyaa likhaa hai tirii sar-navisht mein
goyaa jabiin peh sijdah-e but kaa nishaan nahiin(on my forehead the mark of idol-prostration can be seen, and this itself is my fate and destiny).
http//www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/091/91_10.html
That is why the rejecters will not be able to "sujood" when called to it and will thus feel humiliation, because IMO they will be doing it the wrong way on their foreheads or not doing it at all
6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.
6843 With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to prostrate when they were whole and able. -
Brother Tanveer,
This is little bit vague. What would be the physical position by bringing chin near to ground. Is it simply bending little bit or going down straight and touching the ground? What should be done with the word "Kharoo", falling from up to ground which creates some sound also. Please clarify, it is little bit confusing me.
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Salaam brother Mazhar,
According to Lane's Lexicon
KHARRA = To sound murmured/rumbled or gurgled (water), run so as to make a noise , to be made to run , sound rustled (wind), to snore or make a sound in breathing, to fall or fall down (making a sound to be heard at the same time) , come upon a place or person suddenly or unawares, to be lax or flabby, to pass along or away or by from one place to another.
In the sense of falling down, "kharra" does not necessarily imply to make a sound according to LL. It is also used in the sense of just falling and not necessarily touching the ground.
According to LL, it can also signify "he, or it, fell from a high to a low place". For example "kharra min as-samaa" meaning "he fell from the sky". Therefore, when a parachuter falls from an airplane, the act will be "kharra" even before he has touched the ground. It will be "kharra" also when he touches the ground, so "kharra" can be falling from a high to a low place with or without touching the ground.
Even when the pagans prostrate on their foreheads to their idols, they don't BANG their foreheads on the ground to produce a noise, otherwise they can end up having concussions or bruises !!
What would be the physical position by bringing chin near to ground. Is it simply bending little bit or going down straight and touching the ground?
In my understanding, it can be both. Both positions will fulfill "yukhirroona lilazqaani sujjadan". I personally touch the chin to the ground.
It can have a metaphorical meaning too as used in the Qur'aan, if used with "sujjadan" alone, for example "kharroo lahoo sujjadan" in 12100, which can have a metaphorical meaning of "fell to him in obedience" meaning obeyed him or yielded to him, as implied by the context (remember the Qur'aan is its own dictionary). Similar metaphorical usage in English is "he fell sick", or "the commander ordered the soldiers to fall in line". But in 17107 and 17109, the usage of the word "lilazqaan" in addition to falling sujjadan implies that it is a physical act (of course with a mental aspect of obedience to The God also) and not purely metaphorical.
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Peace siki,
We can't go by that since there are numerous asteroids, comets, and perhaps billions of other planets in our universe and remember Pluto was relegated to another rock.
Peace
Ya ! i know, and i agree, they were gunning to make them twelve , but ended up relegating Pluto. Recently i have heard that they are still in the process of delibrating the correct definition of a planet. Some how i am very hopeful that finally there would be 12 planets, when the scientists are over with rewriting/finding the correct definition.
You wanna know why am i so sure? because i have pondered over the use of the word kokaba in this ayah. Why didn't God use the word "Najoom"? For those people then, for that dream only, "Najoom" (stars) would be more appropriate and would have made more sense, along with sun and the moon. sun
siki
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You wanna know why am i so sure? because i have pondered over the use of the word kokaba in this ayah. Why didn't God use the word "Najoom"? For those people then, for that dream only, "Najoom" (stars) would be more appropriate and would have made more sense, along with sun and the moon. sun
Perhaps this verse will shed light...
an-Nur 024035
Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi mathalu noorihi kamishkatin feeha misbahun almisbahu fee zujajatin alzzujajatu kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun yooqadu min shajaratin mubarakatin zaytoonatin la sharqiyyatin wala gharbiyyatin yakadu zaytuha yudee-o walaw lam tamsas-hu narun noorun AAala noorin yahdee Allahu linoorihi man yashao wayadribu Allahu al-amthala lilnnasi waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
Peace
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Perhaps this verse will shed light...
an-Nur 024035
Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi mathalu noorihi kamishkatin feeha misbahun almisbahu fee zujajatin alzzujajatu kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun yooqadu min shajaratin mubarakatin zaytoonatin la sharqiyyatin wala gharbiyyatin yakadu zaytuha yudee-o walaw lam tamsas-hu narun noorun AAala noorin yahdee Allahu linoorihi man yashao wayadribu Allahu al-amthala lilnnasi waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
Peace
A very important verse for understanding God, but i guess mankind needs some decades(or may be more) to properly understand this verse.
siki
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Brother Tanveer,
We are still not here not there. By this we are in a circle rather than moving on a straight line. For a while, there is no harm in doing the practical. For making only the chin to touch the ground, the excercise becomes quite difficult and looks ridiculous too. One has to kneal or lie straight on the ground to make the chin touch the ground.And then touching the chin or the forehead, what difference both will reflect? Except providing an opportunity to the idol worshippers, who reportedly prostrate and make their forehead touch the ground while keeping the idol right before them, to mock for adopting and following their practice rather in a ridiculous manner.
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Salaam bro Mazhar,
"Yakhirroon lilazqaani sujjadan" clearly implies sujood to the chin and not forehead and does not necessarily imply touching the chin with the ground. If The God wanted sujood upon the forehead, He would have said "3alal jabeeni", but we clearly hear "lilazqaani"/to the chins in context of sujood.
I don't find it difficult to perform the sujood with the chin touching the ground and I don't care if someone mocks me, as the salaat is for God alone and not to show off to others. Maybe this way is to differentiate the pagan's sujood to idols from the believer's sujood to The God alone.
Those who find the "exercise" (as you put it) difficult, can just bend down a little by bending their backs while sitting in the kneeling position and that will fulfill the command of "falling to the chin sujjadan" also as I explained in my previous post above. IMO, even just bending one's neck until the chin touches the upper chest while mentally focussing on obedience of The God would also be falling to the chin in sujood. That might be the sujood of choice while performing salaat walking or riding in state of fear/worry (2239).
The important thing is that the mental aspect of sujood i.e. obedience to The God is more important than how exactly one performs one's physical sujood, as long as one is lowering the chin nearer to the ground as stated in the Qur'aan.
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Brother, Assalamo Alaikum,
Please don't take the word "excercise" in lowely perception, everything involving physical movement and activity falls within the purview of this word; moving of chin to the chest or on ground is after all a physical movement. And deliberate movements are controlled mostly by that part of the memory which we call "procedural memory". If by practice, it is easy for one to touch the chin on the ground, for other who has not practiced it for quite some time it will remain a difficult proposition. Today I have seen many topics on the forum regarding salat and its ettiquettes/manners etc and downloaded dozens of pages to go through them. At the moment, I just want to know would this manner of salat or by whatever name we call it, be an individual activity or with another or more people since what you say is recited during this contains plural words "We"?
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Salaam bro Mazhar,
This is going off-topic and I think you should start a new thread in the salaat section if you wish to discuss this with others. I think the timed salaat/connection of muslimeen can be both individual and collective. Following signs mention salaat/connection in the singular
6162 Say "My salaat/connection, and my offerings, and my life, and my death, are all to God the Lord of the worlds."
918 Rather, the masaajid/institutions of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he establishes the salaat/connection, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.
1187 They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salaat/connection order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!"
1440 "My Lord, let me establish the salaat/connection, and also from my progeny. Our Lord, accept my prayer."
3117 "O my son, establish the salaat/connection and advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and bear with patience whatever befalls you. These are the most honorable traits."
7531 For he did not believe nor sallaa/connect.
969 Have you seen the one who deters,
9610 A servant from sallaa/connecting? -
Salaam bro Mazhar,
If you are referring to 4829, in my understanding it is mentioning metaphorical signs/identifying features/distinctions in the faces of the muslimeen as a result of obedience and humility to The God. The word "mathal" itself points to it being metaphorical. The example in Injeel according to 4829 is clearly a metaphorical one, so the example in Torah is also most likely a metaphorical one
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them being obediently humble (rukka3an sujjadan), they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of obedience (as-sujoodi). Such is their example (mathaluhum) in the Torah. And their example (mathaluhum) in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers; that He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
In this sign "rukka3an sujjadan" refers to obedience/humility of the muslimeen to the God (there is no "wa" in between them). "Seemahum fi wujoohihim" refers to the distinctions/signs/identifications in their faces referred to in 3106-7
3106 The Day on which faces will be whitened and faces will be blackened; as for those whose faces will be blackened "Did you reject after believing? Taste the retribution for what you rejected."
3107 As for those whose faces are whitened, they are in God's mercy, in it they abide eternally.These whitened faces are the shining/joyful faces and the blackened faces are the gloomy/shamed faces mentioned in 7522 and 888
7522 Faces on that Day will be shining.
7524 And faces on that Day will be gloomy.882 Faces on that Day which will be shamed.
888 And faces on that Day which are joyful/happy.The whiteness/shine/joy on the faces is the "seemahum" mentioned in 4829, which will identify the muslimeen and make their faces distinct on the Last Day.
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Brother Tanveer,
You are right, I knew it you will immediately recall this ayah, and will express your perception about it.
First thing I wish to clarify is that ?mathal? does not mean metaphorical. It means example.
And the ayah you have quoted have no relationship with this ayah giving example. They talk about the expression visible on the faces of people.
And please see the translation you have pasted, there you have used the word example but in explanation you call it metaphorical.
Example is always about the visible action, person or a thing which is representative of one being compared.
Metaphor is implicit comparison; it gives and talks about the hidden or folded things, not visible or concrete.
Moreover you have omitted one important word of the ayah while translating?4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them being obediently humble (rukka3an sujjadan), they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of obedience (as-sujoodi). Such is their example (mathaluhum) in the Torah. And their example (mathaluhum) in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers; that He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward?
You have not taken care of the word
is physical mark which is always visible. It is neither expression of the face nor metaphor. Can one have this visible mark on the face if it does not touch the ground frequently for quite long periods? -
Peace Mazhar,
Unless it?s a weird form of kung fu using the head you won?t see prayer marks.
Mathaluhum kamathali allathee istawqada naran falamma adaat ma hawlahu thahaba Allahu binoorihim watarakahum fee thulumatin la yubsiroona
217 Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.4829 Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi waallatheena maAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamao baynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlan mina Allahi waridwanan seemahum fee wujoohihim min athari alssujoodi thalika mathaluhum fee alttawrati wamathaluhum fee alinjeeli kazarAAin akhraja shatahu faazarahu faistaghlatha faistawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu alzzurraAAa liyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahu allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati minhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheeman
Exact same word used ?mathaluhum? meaning MARKs = Similitude.
Also see ?similar example? usage of the word in verses 6122 and 7176.
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Salaam Mazhar,
And the ayah you have quoted have no relationship with this ayah giving example. They talk about the expression visible on the faces of people.
"Seemaahum" is any visible identifying feature/sign. The whiteness/joy/shine on the faces of the muslimeen as per 3106-107, 7522, 8588 will be visible and will identify the muslimeen and thus "seemaahum". The Qur'aan explains itself.
What about the "seemaahum" of the guilty ? If it is a physical mark on the guilty, how did they get it ? It can only be the identifying feature of the guilty i.e. the blackness/gloom/shame on their faces per 3106, 7524, 882.
5541 The guilty will be recognized by their features (seemaahum); they will be taken by the forelocks and the feet.
In 2273, the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and cannot go forth in the land, will be known by their features/"seemaahum", which is that "they do not ask the people repeatedly"
2273 For the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, they cannot go forth in the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features (seemaahum), they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it.
Here SEEMAAHUM = they do not ask the people repeatedly
They will be known because they do not ask people repeatedly, which clearly shows "seemaahum" can be a non physical identifying feature.
How can poor who face hardship in the cause of God and cannot go forth in the land, get physical marks ?
And please see the translation you have pasted, there you have used the word example but in explanation you call it metaphorical.
Example is always about the visible action, person or a thing which is representative of one being compared.
Metaphor is implicit comparison; it gives and talks about the hidden or folded things, not visible or concrete."Mithl" or "mathal" means "similitude" or "description by way of comparison" according to Lane's Lexicon. In LL, it is even said that "it is metaphorically applied to a condition, state, or case, that is important, strange, or wonderful".
My point was that the "mathal"/similitude in Injeel per 4829 is clearly a metaphorical one (muslimeen being compared to a strong and thick plant), which implies that the "mathal"/similitude in Torah is also a metaphorical one.
Furthermore, there is no "WA" between "rukka3an" and "sujjadan" in 4829, which clearly implies that the phrase "rukka3an sujjadan" in 4829 refers to humility and obedience to The God, and cannot be physical ruku/sujood.
You have not taken care of the word
is physical mark which is always visible. It is neither expression of the face nor metaphor.According to Lane Lexicon, "athar" is not only a physical mark but can also mean "effect/influence/consequence", and thus can be non-physical effect also.
The faces of the muslimeen will have "identifying features" (seemaahum) due to "the effect/influence/result or consequence" (athar) of obedience to The God (sujood), and these identifying features can only be the whiteness/joy/shine on their faces on the Last Day, as clearly explained in the Qur'aan.
There is no "WA" between "rukka3an" and "sujjadan" in 4829, which clearly implies that this phrase refers to humility and obedience to The God in 4829, and cannot be a physical ruku/sujood in that sign.
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Brother Tanveer, Salam,
Elongation and stretching a word won?t prove a point. Feelings/emotions get reflected on the faces and in body language. But they are never called . It basically and primarily means a ?scar, spot? left on the skin after healing of a wound; marks of footsteps, distinction and in relation to consequence of these things the word can be used.
What feelings are reflected by expressions on the faces can never be expressed by the word . In response to one of my post Sister Samia said ?I am blushing?. If her lovely son/daughter had seen her at that point of time, they might have thought that mother is having high blood pressure, being not aware of the reason of blushing. Blushing can?t be represented by though one can still use the word ?mark? since it is also used to indicate outward sign of somebody?s feeling or attitude though in ordinary perception it means scar, dent, and spot on the surface of a thing.
The problem with the lexicon writers has been that they also embarked upon interpreting words which was not their job. The word is in itself a consequence/effect of something.Quote There is no "WA" between "rukka3an" and "sujjadan" in 4829, which clearly implies that this phrase refers to humility and obedience to The God in 4829, and cannot be a physical ruku/sujood in that sign? {Tanveer
}This was said earlier in the verse. In ruku, bending, there can?t be any and because of sujood, become very visible on knees and quickly even if someone says salat once or twice a day, but that part of the body is not visible to others therefore there is no mention of it. has been used only with reference to sujood and on faces. Moreover this has not been said with regard to the Last Day; it is about the present days.
If we read Quran with preconceived notions/perceptions/thoughts we indulge in stretching the meanings of a word to find one supporting our contention; but then the intention can?t be called as seeking guidance from the Book. Lexicons, exegeses, Hadith material they all help people to restrict to their own perceptions rather than listening to the Book. The statement of the Book is the one which is reflected by its own words, not that Lane or Ibne Kathir or Bukhari said.
?Mathal? and Metaphor are never synonym, interchangeable. For Metaphor the Arabic Root is . One is for visible, which can be perceived by senses, the other is with concealed/infolded thing, like Alaq when used with relation to human creation. Knowledge/conveyance of thought is made easy to people by giving example about the ? and for invisible/concealed/hidden one has to use metaphor to make others understand what is being said. Scintists use the metaphor to make people understand about the invisible things and the Quran has Ayat Mutashabahat to convey knowledge of the universe and human body. And Ayat Mohkmaat are for actions/behavior/attitude/deeds/acts, simple and straight commands without the use of metaphor; but explained only with Mathal, since these are the main purpose of sending the Book. These are for simple and straight forward people who wish to know the purpose of their creation and want to live in accordance with that purpose. Ayat Motashabehat help the "brainy" people who argue before accepting any thing to accept it as the word of Allah when things open in the same manner earlier described in the Book and then accept it as a statement of fact narrated 1400 years back. And Allah has promised that He will keep unfolding the knowledde/metaphors to the humanity.
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Salaam brother Mazhar,
Elongation and stretching a word won?t prove a point. Feelings/emotions get reflected on the faces and in body language. But they are never called . It basically and primarily means a ?scar, spot? left on the skin after healing of a wound; marks of footsteps, distinction and in relation to consequence of these things the word can be used.
What feelings are reflected by expressions on the faces can never be expressed by the word . In response to one of my post Sister Samia said ?I am blushing?. If her lovely son/daughter had seen her at that point of time, they might have thought that mother is having high blood pressure, being not aware of the reason of blushing. Blushing can?t be represented by though one can still use the word ?mark? since it is also used to indicate outward sign of somebody?s feeling or attitude though in ordinary perception it means scar, dent, and spot on the surface of a thing.
The problem with the lexicon writers has been that they also embarked upon interpreting words which was not their job.The word is in itself a consequence/effect of something.One cannot stretch or elongate a word, but its meaning. I am not stretching or elongating any meanings. I gave a standard Classical Arabic dictionary meaning of "athar" as "effect/influence/consequence" which you admit also. Where is the stretching ?
The "athar"/effect can be non-physical thing also. If you look up "athar" in Lane's Lexicon, you will find the meaning "LUSTER OR BRIGHTNESS, OF THE FACE" also.
Furthermore, in Classical Arabic it can be said "aththara fi 3irdhihi", meaning "he scarred his honor" (ref Lane Lexicon).
"Athar" used in the context of 4829 clearly means "effect/consequence". "Min athari al-sujoodi" means "from effect/consequence of sujood", and in the context of 4829, the sujood can only mean obedience to the God because earlier in the same sign the phrase "rukka3an sujjadan" is used which cannot be referring to a physical sujood but only to mental obedience to The God, and "al-sujoodi" refers to this "sujjadan".
This was said earlier in the verse. In ruku, bending, there can?t be any and because of sujood, become very visible on knees and quickly even if someone says salat once or twice a day, but that part of the body is not visible to others therefore there is no mention of it. has been used only with reference to sujood and on faces. Moreover this has not been said with regard to the Last Day; it is about the present days.
Now look who is elongating and stretching meanings !!
Ruku3 primarily means "humility" to The God as used in the Qur'aan, and even where it means a physical ruku3 in addition to the mental humility, it cannot mean bending the way it is used in the Qur'aan.
For example, in 3824, how can one "KHARRA RAAKI3AN"/FALL bending ? One can only fall kneeling.
The face touching any surface for a long time does not necessarily leave physical marks, unless it keeps touching a hard surface. If it touches a soft rug or soft carpet, it may not necessarily have any physical marks even after years, but the brightness/joy of the face due to obedience to The God will always be there.
"Seemaahum" is also used in relation to the Last Day as an identifying feature, and the same "brightness/shine/joy" or "darkness/gloom/shame" of the faces can also be visible in this life.
You still haven't responded to how the guilty will get physical marks and be recognized by them on the Last Day, and how the poor who face hardship in the cause of The God will get physical marks IN THIS LIFE, as brought up in my last post
What about the "seemaahum" of the guilty ? If it is a physical mark on the guilty, how did they get it ? It can only be the identifying feature of the guilty i.e. the blackness/gloom/shame on their faces per 3106, 7524, 882.
5541 The guilty will be recognized by their features (seemaahum); they will be taken by the forelocks and the feet.
In 2273, the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and cannot go forth in the land, will be known by their features/"seemaahum", which is that "they do not ask the people repeatedly"
2273 For the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, they cannot go forth in the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features (seemaahum), they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it.
Here SEEMAAHUM = they do not ask the people repeatedly
They will be known because they do not ask people repeatedly, which clearly shows "seemaahum" can be a non physical identifying feature.
How can poor who face hardship in the cause of God and cannot go forth in the land, get physical marks ?
If we read Quran with preconceived notions/perceptions/thoughts we indulge in stretching the meanings of a word to find one supporting our contention; but then the intention can?t be called as seeking guidance from the Book. Lexicons, exegeses, Hadith material they all help people to restrict to their own perceptions rather than listening to the Book. The statement of the Book is the one which is reflected by its own words, not that Lane or Ibne Kathir or Bukhari said.
I will give you the same advice.
?Mathal? and Metaphor are never synonym, interchangeable. For Metaphor the Arabic Root is . One is for visible, which can be perceived by senses, the other is with concealed/infolded thing, like Alaq when used with relation to human creation. Knowledge/conveyance of thought is made easy to people by giving example about the ? and for invisible/concealed/hidden one has to use metaphor to make others understand what is being said. Scintists use the metaphor to make people understand about the invisible things and the Quran has Ayat Mutashabahat to convey knowledge of the universe and human body. And Ayat Mohkmaat are for actions/behavior/attitude/deeds/acts, simple and straight commands without the use of metaphor; but explained only with Mathal, since these are the main purpose of sending the Book. These are for simple and straight forward people who wish to know the purpose of their creation and want to live in accordance with that purpose. Ayat Motashabehat help the "brainy" people who argue before accepting any thing to accept it as the word of Allah when things open in the same manner earlier described in the Book and then accept it as a statement of fact narrated 1400 years back. And Allah has promised that He will keep unfolding the knowledde/metaphors to the humanity.
This fallacy of logic is called STRAWMAN.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Where did I say "mathal" and "metaphor" are synonymous ? This is the second time you have misrepresented what I said. Please read my previous posts carefully. This is what I said
"Mithl" or "mathal" means "similitude" or "description by way of comparison" according to Lane's Lexicon. In LL, it is even said that "it is metaphorically applied to a condition, state, or case, that is important, strange, or wonderful".
My point was that the "mathal"/similitude in Injeel per 4829 is clearly a metaphorical one (muslimeen being compared to a strong and thick plant), which implies that the "mathal"/similitude in Torah is also a metaphorical one.
When I say that "mathal"/similitude is a metaphorical one, it does not mean that I am saying "mathal" and "metaphor" are synonymous, but I am using "metaphorical" as an adjective of "mathal"/similitude.
"Mathal"/similitude is always applied metaphorically. The second "mathal"/similitude in 4829 is metaphorical because muslims are being compared to strong and thick plant, which is clearly a metaphorical "mathal"/similitude. Similarly, the first "mathal"/similitude of their identifying features being in their faces from "athar"/effect of "sujood" is also a metaphorical "mathal"/similitude.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
met?a?phor /mtfr, -fr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun- a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in ?A mighty fortress is our God.? Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
- something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.
This discussion is completely off-topic, and i am not going to continue it any further in this thread. I have already expressed my understanding about this issue based on the Qur'aan, and the readers can make up their own minds.
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Brother Tanveer,
Permit me just one question, please. In Quran, the word has only once occurred in conjunction with word and both are by you being considered and assigned the same meaning and perception. What was the need of using these two words, if things were not to be made specific with regard to visible scar, mark on the face? I have seen many people who have a scar on the forehead, appeared not because of hitting of king fu or rubbing it with hard ground. Rich people who say their salat on very costly rugs/carpets.
I said ?The word is in itself a consequence/effect of something?
You said
?I gave a standard Classical Arabic dictionary meaning of "athar" as "effect/influence/consequence" which you admit also. Where is the stretching??Please read both carefully, and you will find both convey different perception. I said that ?Athar? itself is the result of healing of the wound leaving behind a scar on the skin.
And let me clarify that Salat is that sort of thing the major part of which is done under the control of ?procedural memory? which is learnt by seeing others and personal practice. It is a practical not theory.
And also the majority of public perhaps does not consider that it was not the idolaters who were first in existence but it were the monotheists who existed first. Idolaters copied the sujood style for their idols.
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What was the need of using these two words, if things were not to be made specific with regard to visible scar, mark on the face? I have seen many people who have a scar on the forehead, appeared not because of hitting of king fu or rubbing it with hard ground. Rich people who say their salat on very costly rugs/carpets.
Perhaps they interpret the verse that way and consider it a duty to hit harder; thus people with BIG scare marks distinguish themselves and get extra points ? in their opinion.
I said that ?Athar? itself is the result of healing of the wound leaving behind a scar on the skin.
Also consider?
Faonthur ila athari rahmati Allahi kayfa yuhyee alarda baAAda mawtiha inna thalika lamuhyee almawta wahuwa AAala kulli shayin qadeerun
3050 Then contemplate (O man!) the memorials of Allah's Mercy!- how He gives life to the earth after its death verily the same will give life to the men who are dead for He has power over all things.Peace