Day of resurrection, or period of resurrection, instant after death?
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What is the exact message this is implying?
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That resurrection comes directly after death! Meaning no "punishment in the grave". Or am I wrong?
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intersting view, but i believe 2259 shows what death and resurrection is like
2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We expand them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"
the saying 'i have stayed here or part of a day' is repeated many many times about people being resurrected and they thought they were only dead for that long
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Jonah
37139 And, behold, Jonah was indeed among the Messengers.
37140 When he fled like a runaway slave onto a laden ship. (Abaqa = Fled like a runaway slave. He migrated before Allahs Command. 2187).
37141 He had cast an arrow and missed the mark. (Untimely action.)
37142 Then the Fish grabbed him while he was blaming himself. (Again, usually a whale is mentioned here. But the whale is a mammal and not a fish, and the Quran which is never inaccurate, speaks of Al-Hut = The Fish. Fa-altaqamahu = Grabbed him in its teeth, not swallowed. The fiction of Jonah staying 40 days in the belly of a whale is demolished right thus).
37143 And had he not been a valiant swimmer,(tasbihun)
37144 (The fish would have eaten him up and) he would have remained in her belly disintegrated there and further until the Day of Rising.
37145Then We cast him on the shore, while he was exhausted. (6849).
Jonah was never swallowed by a fish, as EVERY fish known on earth will have to bite you in pieces before he can swallow you. Whales are not fish, but mammals. In the time of Muhammed this was unknown and through believing the Bible was a authority, the understanding became distorted. Even a spermwhale will not swallow you in hole but bite you several times. In the stomach you will also have oxygen shortage and the acid will be to strong to endure. The Laws of Nature do not allow the believe that Jonah survived the swallowing. Next to this is that the Arabic doesnt even allow it.
The word iltaqama doesn't mean to swallow, it comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece, iltiqama means he took him in his mouth/grabbed him in his teeth, as for example iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing. These verses are totally distorted by the Biblical account as the Bible was seen as an authority by the early commentators. Tasbih means one swims, gliding along smoothly, who go forth in their quest, and not to glorify as is the usual understanding of the word.
In 2187 zoeloemat means calamities or distress. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness. It is important to know the whole background of Arabic words to understand these verses. So by no means at all does the darkness refers to being inside a belly of a fish, which is also impossible as any belly contains acid. The darkness refers to the distress of the situation.
Al-Hoot/hut means Fish and not Whale. See for example the story of Moses
37142 Failtaqamahu al-hootu wahuwamuleemun
Then the Fish grabbed him while he was blaming himself.
1861 But when Moses with his young friend reached the junction of the two streams, they forgot all about the fish/al-hoot, and it took its way into the sea and disappeared from sight. (Moses found himself caring little for the delicacies of life from then on).
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=eebb2c9643d87d061759bd50723d7244
And the Day of Ressurection is not some mythical happening. It is part of the Laws of Nature. A new Universe will be created, where we will be developed in again, only then we can remember what we did in this life. This will create a State of Regret, Jahannam, which the person cannot further develop, Jahim=Fire/Point in Battle where one must retreat/To stop someone. Or the person has lived and developed himself according to the Laws of God, and thus can develop further, Jannah=Garden=Growth.
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=eebb2c9643d87d061759bd50723d7244
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Though you missed the point (I'm asking about resurrection, not about Jonah), Arnold, that was a great clarification )
The final article is definitely insightful, do you have sources for it aside from the books at the bottom? Or do the books at the bottom reference their own direct sources?
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I recommend the books given in the article. I will also write a more detailed article about it in the future quoting several scientists on this subject.
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Hi Arnold,
I so disagree with your interpretations, but then we have had our clashes in the past
May God open your heart to more literal explanations (you certainly think the same about me that I be more open to more allegorical explanations,
but I do not believe The Quran to be a book full of riddles only to be understood by some intellectual elite...) -
Hi Arnold,
I so disagree with your interpretations, but then we have had our clashes in the past
May God open your heart to more literal explanations (you certainly think the same about me that I be more open to more allegorical explanations,
but I do not believe The Quran to be a book full of riddles only to be understood by some intellectual elite...)Salaam Nabster,
This is the beauty of the Quran, each can approach it on their level. I am a scientist, and thus approach every subject in the Quran as such. You have your own vision on how God's Justice works, and by my understanding have a more mythical vision on how it will look. This is all fine with me. As we both have different backgrounds and thus different minds, and more importantly, we need our different visions for us both, as I cannot accept yours, and you cannot accept mine. But still we both believe in the Quran. This is the beauty of the Arabic used in the Quran.
The main thing is, that we both believe we must follow the Laws of the Quran and uphold them. How we look at the reward and punishment does not matter in the mean time.
Als I believe our approach is different. I look at the words used, and try to understand what Jahim/Jahannam/Jannah DO to an individual, you try to look more at what is used to reward and punish the persons.
You see fire, I see a barriere against progress, for me it doesn't what is used, I look at what it DOES. You see the word and see what is USED.
In the end it comes down to the same thing. I'm not trying to start the whole discussion all over again, just trying to make some points clear, in what I believe is the real difference in our understandings. And I also do not understand why you believe my understanding is for the "Intellectual Elite", this is nonsense. I know highly educated people who believe in the real fire punishment. And I know uneducated young Muslims who understand the concept of progress or no progress in the very detail. It is not about intelligence or education, it is about insight.
When we look at the literal meanings of the words, it shows that your interpretation is as allegorical as mine.
JAHANNAM derives from an old valley south of Jerusalem. Jahannam comes from the Hebrew "ge-hinnom" which means "Valley of Hinnom." People, especially children, used to be sacrificed there to idols. Later, the Vallley was used as an execution ground for criminals. Bodies and clothing of those dying of a contagious disease, were burned there. In Jesus' time it was still used for burning the rubbish and garbage of Jerusalem.
Thus the idea that Jahannam is the afterlife Hell is also an allegorical interpretation. The literal understanding of Jahannam is, that you believe all criminals will end up in the old garbage dump of Jerusalem....
The same counts for Jahim is normally translated with Fire, which is indeed one of its meanings. It also means heat of anger, hot coals.
But it also means
he receded, or drew back.
The main part of the war or battle or the straitness thereof and the vehemence of thefighlt or slaughter, in the scene therof.the greedy;who stops giving anything to others
to become narrow; narrow mindedness; who remaind narrow minded
a conjested houseJaham-al-baeer a mouth guard of camels to stop them hurt anyone
dogs getting a mouth guard so that they dont bark.
TajaHam= side effects of being 'mean' and greedy
AjHam Anhu = he stopped doing that
AljaHamu = The one who stops giving anything to others
Saqara, also used in the Quran for Fire, and it also means heat of the battle.
So the literal meaning of Jahim is " point of receding" . But you interpretate it as real fire, thus an allegorical understanding of the word.
Also this counts for Jannah, which LITERALLY means "Ground covers foilage" or " Olive garden". So you believe we end up in a garden? No, of course not, you will probably have a sort of vision how it all would look. Referring to your allegorical understanding of the word.
In QXP, Dr.Shabbir translates Jahim with
The Insurmountable Barrier to the development of the human ?Self? = Figuratively, Hell. The human ?Self? can make progress only by believing in and working according to the Prescribed Way of Life and helping Allah?s creation. Insurmountable Barrier = Bar to progress = Obstruction that halts = Halting of evolution = Mere survival = Hellfire = Flames of anguish = Fire of regret).
Jahannam refers to a State of mind that produces wrong results in this Life and the Next. A state where Mankind cannot progress further in this Life and the Next.
Jahim is connected with stop moving forward because of a decision, or is held back in case of prevention, is stuck in a state of struggling.
That Jahim refers to stop progressing/advancing because of a decision and staying in a struggle can be seen by these verses
2119 Lo! We have sent you, O Prophet, with the Decisive Truth, a herald of glad tiding and a Warner. And you will not be held accountable for those who choose to stay behind Jahim, and hence, dwell there.
3121 And when such people are told to follow what Allah has revealed, they say, "Nay, we follow that which we have found our fathers doing." What! Even though Satan had invited them to the doom of Flames?"
In 2119 it refers that people choose to stay in a state of Jahim, and 3121 explains one of such decisions. They hold on to the ways of their fathers, and are thus stuck in the same struggle as their forefathers, not advancing.
And thus 2119 can be translated as such
2119 Lo! We have sent you, O Prophet, with the Decisive Truth, a herald of glad tiding and a Warner. And you will not be held accountable for those who choose to stay behind in the thickest part of their struggle= Insurmountable Barrier = Bar to progress = Obstruction that halts = Halting of evolution = Mere survival , and hence, dwell there.
And this verse says the same thing
2251 Whereas those who strive against Our Messages seeking to defeat their purpose, they are destined to face Jahim=Insurmountable Barrier = Bar to progress = Obstruction that halts = Halting of evolution = Mere survival=The thickest part of their struggle .
People will stay in their struggle, as only through the Quran can we attain the perfect society, Paradise on Earth. Today, the West have attained many things that are given in the Quran. Democracy, Freedom, Women's equality, Racial equality and so on. But these were all gained through immense hardship and pain. Millions of people have died to attain these freedoms, and still many in the world still haven't got them.
This is what is meant with Jahim for society and individual. Their denial of the Quran has made them stuck in their struggle for learning the best Values. They can only attain them through fierce struggle on their own, and then still they can only attain some. Today in the West, these freedoms have not gained them Paradise on Earth, and they are still stuck in their struggle.
People who bury the Truth for themselves, by believing in Idols, gods, saints, who reject the Quran or who believe in Divine guidance outside of the Quran, are all stuck in their struggle. Their life is like being in the constant heat of battle, survinving. They are not progressing, and are like a gurdled camel. This can be seen throughout the world, Muslim and non-Muslim.
The Struggle in Jahannam or development in Jannah will be experienced on a higher level in the Next Life.
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Arnold
Jonah was never swallowed by a fish, as EVERY fish known on earth will have to bite you in pieces before he can swallow you. Whales are not fish, but mammals. In the time of Muhammed this was unknown and through believing the Bible was a authority, the understanding became distorted. Even a spermwhale will not swallow you in hole but bite you several times. In the stomach you will also have oxygen shortage and the acid will be to strong to endure. The Laws of Nature do not allow the believe that Jonah survived the swallowing. Next to this is that the Arabic doesn?t even allow it.
Well; i am not discussing here, that weather Younas was actually swallowed by a Fish or not, but instead will like to have some comments from you on the following
The sperm whale is the largest of the toothed whales and can reach a length of 65 feet. Its massive round head accounts for about one third of its total body length.
The sperm whale will also eat snapper, lobster, and even shark. It swallows its prey whole.
An adult whale will eat up to one ton of food every day.A website declares
"Wilson wrote that the temperature inside a whale is 104-106? Fahrenheit (about 410 Centigrade) and that the gastric juice would be unpleasant but not deadly...."
and
"In addition there is the problem of digestive juices?would they have killed Jonah and digested him? A scientific answer seems unavailable. Would digestive juices with their digestive enzymes, for example, cease to flow if the whale were near death ? Possibly the acidity of the stomach juices would also be unpleasant unless their secretion were also inhibited.
Acidity is measured on the pH scale which varies from 0 to 14. For example
Concentrated nitric acid 0 Orange 3.5
Gastric secretion 1 Tomato 4
Lemon juice 2 Saliva 6
Stomach juice 2 Pure Water 7
Coca cola 3 Intestinal secretion 7.5
Vinegar 3 Sea Water 8It shouldn?t be too hard to do an experiment of placing a hand or finger in lemon juice, cola, or vinegar for varying intervals and seeing if any damage occurs."
taken from http//www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJonahDebate.htm
A BBC website declares
"Once inside, the advice seems to be to sit tight and try not to touch anything if at all possible. Gastric processes are invasive and skin does not recover well from encounters with organic acids. The process by which gastric acid handles food is slow and wearing clothing, especially of the synthetic variety, is likely to buy you some time."
http//www.bbc.co.uk/dna/hub/A449345
Another website using Robinson, a senior marine science instructor at Seaworld, as a source indicates the following
"Think of "all the digestive juices, hydrochloric acids, the heat,
just suffocating heat, the lack of air..."A whale's stomach would be no place for a human to spend three days,
Robinson said. Not to live to tell about it."taken from http//www.jewishsightseeing.com/usa/calif...13-02jonah.html
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peace arnold
you can't randomly plug in meanings using dictionaries for a meaning you want, you have to use the grammar, you can't just start picking and choosing the meaning(s) you want in the verses, this is very subjective
jahanam is translated fire because of the context and the grammar, not because some translators decided it meant 'hell'
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Arnold
Well; i am not discussing here, that weather Younas was actually swallowed by a Fish or not, but instead will like to have some comments from you on the following
The sperm whale is the largest of the toothed whales and can reach a length of 65 feet. Its massive round head accounts for about one third of its total body length.
The sperm whale will also eat snapper, lobster, and even shark. It swallows its prey whole.
An adult whale will eat up to one ton of food every day.Salaam Rajah,
Thanks for the information, I had found information telling the partialy opposite, so I will look it up.
But the information is still redundant, as
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Iltiqama does NOT mean swallow.
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Al-Hut is a FISH and not a Mammal, which a spermwhale is.
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A spermwhale will need to grab you with his teeth before swallowing you.
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peace arnold
you can't randomly plug in meanings using dictionaries for a meaning you want, you have to use the grammar, you can't just start picking and choosing the meaning(s) you want in the verses, this is very subjective
jahanam is translated fire because of the context and the grammar, not because some translators decided it meant 'hell'
Salaam D'Argento,
Jahannam is mostly translated as Hell, never as Fire. You probably mean Jahim. This has nothing to do with grammar difference, as there is none. Jahim can mean Fire as well as Point of Receding.
And they translated it as Hell as traditions has taught them to look at the concept of Jahannam. Like I said, you look at what Jahannam can look like, I look at what it DOES.
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That resurrection comes directly after death! Meaning no "punishment in the grave". Or am I wrong?
You're correct about "punishment in the grave".. there are no such thing...
in your cited context it should be "punishment in the whale belly" rotflGrave torture / punishment in the grave actually is a legacy belief from Pagan Egypt.
The myth of OSIRIS asking you questions after you die in the "underworld" (readgrave).Resurrection WILL comes directly after death, that is true... in the deceased point of view.
Resurrection WILL NOT comes directly after death, that is true in the "universal" point of view.
The "time" between death and resurrection might be millions of years, yet from the point of view of the deceased it might seems come so soon.
Imagine you're sleeping and awaken after millions of year.Salam
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Yes, that was my view.
in your cited context it should be "punishment in the whale belly"
What I meant by the verse is that he would have "stayed there till the day of resurrection" - logically, he would have died, and that would be "staying there till", and what comes after? The period of resurrection.
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to expand the quran also compares sleep and death, and what concept of time do we have in sleep?
Man, don't make that comparison. I can make 5 minutes of sleep feel like days. And I do. And I wake up a few days later, all refreshed.
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Peace Arnold,
I have to give it to you, you are very persistent in your views.
For me there are two layers of understanding in the Quran, the main one is literal, and enveloping it is allegorical only for matters that are difficult to understand for us trapped in this time/space continuum, or that we have not yet experienced or seen yet, using real examples to explain those matters, but this does not make them unreal, in fact they will be more real and profound than what we are used to...
I just want to add a comment about Jonah's fish, it would have been a whale, as the term fish might have been used for anything that looks like a fish in the old arabic, because they then did not have the know-how to distinguish between the two...
thank you for the fish