My Dream of Truth
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Peace Lobster,
Ever thought about going into sales? I think you'd be good at it. I did it for a number of years, infact sometimes I think I still do it without realising it. Or should I say politics? I like how you go around a question just to land where you wanted to be in the first place. If I didn't know better, I'd probably be bedazzled, while the question was never truly answered.
Anyways, I'm glad someone else is catching the contradictions, if you go back to my questions when I asked you what are you saying?... that's one of them. You said 2 opposite things and congratulated yourself after... I think you even believed yourself.
Does god contact us through dreams? In the way Babythespy meant it, no.
I take it to mean, in some other way, the answer is yes? ) In the way Babythespy meant it?... How do YOU know? I'll do what you do, and take the opportunity to answer that one for you... you don't. And no one else does, except Babythesy... and God. yesGod can, and does communicate to us through dreams, among many other ways. You can try and twist and turn it about in any you like, but that's the way it is. Now if you would like to show me a verse that contradicts this, please, by all means, feel free to do so. I will highly appreciate it and concede.
Or even better, if you can give quranic proof on this statement of yours...
god doesn't speak to us through dreams
It will all nicely be settled. Forgive me if I'm not coming across clearly enough, it seems I've been either using wrong words or not expressing myself well. I do hope you understand what I'm asking for though. -
peace zenje,
Ever thought about going into sales? Cheesy I think you'd be good at it. I did it for a number of years, infact sometimes I think I still do it without realising it. Or should I say politics? I like how you go around a question just to land where you wanted to be in the first place. If I didn't know better, I'd probably be bedazzled, while the question was never truly answered.
I know I'm good at it...but honestly that's not what I'm doing. I've said totally crap things on the forum before and admitted me mistakes. I'm being honest. I meant what I said. I still stick to it. I just wanted to explain to you why I think it doesn't contradict the quran.
thank you for the compliment. )Anyways, I'm glad someone else is catching the contradictions, if you go back to my questions when I asked you what are you saying?... that's one of them. You said 2 opposite things and congratulated yourself after... I think you even believed yourself.
nooo I totally did not contradict myself!
I said we can't talk about what god CAN do. Something infinite and infinitely powerful CAN do anything. But god apparently does what god does. We can take a guess at what he does, and we have to. It's just that we can argue all our lives as to what god CAN do and never come to a conclusion.
CAN god create a stone heavy enough that even he cannot lift it?I take it to mean, in some other way, the answer is yes? Roll Eyes In the way Babythespy meant it?... How do YOU know? I'll do what you do, and take the opportunity to answer that one for you... you don't. And no one else does, except Babythesy... and God
Well, just as you interpret my words one way or another, the same way I did Babythespy's words. I have to make something of what she said, and her reply to me didn't contradict that assumption.
In some other way, the answer would actually be yes. To understand what she actually meant, she'll have to explain it herself.God can, and does communicate to us through dreams, among many other ways. You can try and twist and turn it about in any you like, but that's the way it is. Now if you would like to show me a verse that contradicts this, please, by all means, feel free to do so. I will highly appreciate it and concede.
And how do you KNOW that? Is your interpretation of the Quranic verses enough? If it is, I will use evidence from the quran to explain what I was saying in my last post.
Or even better, if you can give quranic proof on this statement of yours...
I think I've explained what I said. I have also explained why I think it does not contradict the quran. If you still believe it does, and choose not to agree with me based on that, that's perfectly fine.
Now, to explain my explanation...
this is how I see it
Doesn't the quran say that god punishes wrong doers? that god guides the truthseekers and puts locks on the disbelievers' hearts? (I'm sorry i'm paraphrasing here, but you know what i'm talking about)
well, God is fair and just, right? he gives everyone a chance, right? Then how is it fair that he actually prevents people from gaining knowledge, and actually misguides them?
The thing is, god isn't doing it directly, god is the SOURCE of the laws of cause and effect that allow this to happen.
So you can say
god is not misguiding anyone, they themselves are. Which, although it may contradict the quran, is perfectly true.anyway, regardless of what the quran says, I do not think god sends us special messages through our dreams, even if god does, we can't believe in them because we can think god is telling us ANYTHING in our dreams...you might not fancy killing dogs, but I bet there's some psycho out there who does, and he's just waiting for that miraculous dream where god tells him to grab a knife and do it.
There is no verse that says "god does not speak to us through our dreams." I BELIEVE that it is implied, when we look at all the verses together, but I have no conclusive proof.
So yes, you can say that what I said contradicts the quran, and maybe it really does, too.
But I hope you understand that that one sentence doesn't really reflect my whole understanding of god and dreams. -
where do u draw the line between "directly" and indirectly" ? <the analogy below explains ur question on guidance>
Let's say a teacher told the students, "if you choose answer B, you get minus 10 marks,"
and the student asked, "why?"
the teacher said, "it is the system"
student asked, "why follow the system?"
the teacher answered "because i made it and because i say so"student choosed answer B, teacher minus 10 marks from him.
Question, WHO minus 10 marks from that student? ;D
another question, what difference does it make if it's directly or indirectly?
(unless you're a politician, then playing with words is important) ;D -
anyway, regardless of what the quran says, I do not think god sends us special messages through our dreams, even if god does, we can't believe in them because we can think god is telling us ANYTHING in our dreams...
Thanks for clarifying. That's all you needed to say O0i'm done... peace
Me too.
PEACE
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so tell me Lobster how BabyThespy had things in her dream that she's never heard/known of? How's that possible?
No idea. But it sure wasn't something supernatural.
There are a lot of things in our subconscious that we don't know about. I bet we know everything that's going to happen to us.Thanks for clarifying. That's all you needed to say O0
Yeah I know, but I didn't wanna say it because it would end the discussion and I wouldn't get a chance to explain why I thought it did not contradict the quran.
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peace Katara,
Let's say a teacher told the students, "if you choose answer B, you get minus 10 marks,"
and the student asked, "why?"
the teacher said, "it is the system"
student asked, "why follow the system?"
the teacher answered "because i made it and because i say so"Yeah, the system is there, and we all know it. I know that I will get hurt if I hit myself with a bat. I know that I will die if I don't eat for a few days.
God doesn't control us like puppets.
God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead. But that's what the quran says!
I don't think that's what the quran says, and even if it does, I disagree.
We can't take it literally.
If we take "god does..." or "god shows..." literally, then that means if we used to believe in falsehood in the past, god would never have allowed us to find the truth, because god misguides the disbelievers, right?
and we would wait for that dream to come to give us a sign. People wouldn't do anything but wait.
Everything that I just said, God is making me say it.I remember when Jonny K converted to "evolutionism," he said he saw several signs that must've been from God. I disagree with him that god put those signs there. They were just things and events, and it was HE who chose to interpret them that way.
We can control what happens to us, because god does not interfere. -
where it things you knew, d'argento? connection through dreams ?
yes...interesting one; although the main focus/point of the dream was
"Who is Jesus" And thats the question she has had in her mind, and she got her answer. I mean some of the descriptions/verses were straight from the quran and she didn't read it yet ! You are also presuming that BabyThespy is/or would blindly believe in the Quran based on her dream...obviously if the quran had bad logic or bad science, or contradicitons etc... it couldn't be from God.
There are a lot of things in our subconscious that we don't know about. I bet we know everything that's going to happen to us.[/
Your proof for that is? Too much speculation you don't know for sure either/or. Love to leave it to guesswork dontcha?
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peace Dargento,
Your proof for that is? Too much speculation you don't know for sure either/or. Love to leave it to guesswork dontcha?
Ever heard of subliminal messages? course you have. How come people believe them without actually realizing they're believing in it?
A lot of stuff gets in there without us realizing (that's why the quran says we must guard our salat).
If dreams do reveal our subconscious, and there is scientific evidence that suggests that, then they could show us tons of stuff we have no idea about.
And from what I've seen, our mind contains some pretty mysterious stuff.Of course, none of this conclusively explains Babythespy's dreams, but we can't just say that the dream was some supernatural message.
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Peace Lobster,
If dreams do reveal our subconscious, and there is scientific evidence that suggests that,
There are scientific studies suggesting a billion different things.... I am not saying its not true ... i am just saying I take it as a grain of salt. I don't find the scientific community or studies much more trustworthy than the religious community
And from what I've seen, our mind contains some pretty mysterious stuff.
I agree
Of course, none of this conclusively explains Babythespy's dreams,
Yep
but we can't just say that the dream was some supernatural message.
Depends on your definition of what supernatural is....
Do I know what/who God is? No
Does anybody? No
Therefore it's something impossible to speculate on...What if in the end we find out that God was very natural and was among us physically? Who knows.... I certainly won't dismiss that idea -
God doesn't control us like puppets.
God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead.We can control what happens to us, because god does not interfere.
I agree that God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead. But what if God is leading all of us through signs/dreams? Maybe some people just realize a sign/dream for what it could possibly be and others just shrug them off as coincidence, subconscious, forget their dreams, or just simply have not put together that the things that are happening to them are somehow connected. I don't pretend to know what God does or anything like that. I am simply pointing out a possibility.
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peace
Dargento,
I agree that scientific observations can be conflicting...we can't trust them completely. But we have to use what we have seen to understand something, as opposed to coming up with explanations that go completely against what we've observed.Depends on your definition of what supernatural is....
Do I know what/who God is? No
Does anybody? No
Therefore it's something impossible to speculate on...What if in the end we find out that God was very natural and was among us physically? Who knows.... I certainly won't dismiss that ideaWell, shouldn't we know what God is?
I think what the quran is describing as "god" is something natural, something that we can observe, and thus believe in and trust.
Unfortunately, what most people do is come up with an idea of god in their head, and then try to force that into reality.
If you don't see it, it probably isn't there.
and if we are to take the quran literally, then god is simply "the ultimate truth."BabyThespy,
I agree that God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead. But what if God is leading all of us through signs/dreams? Maybe some people just realize a sign/dream for what it could possibly be and others just shrug them off as coincidence, subconscious, forget their dreams, or just simply have not put together that the things that are happening to them are somehow connected. I don't pretend to know what God does or anything like that. I am simply pointing out a possibility.
I think you may have misunderstood me, I'm not saying that dreams are useless and not worthy of our attention, or that they can't help us in anyway. Dreams are important.
This is the way I think god guides
god has written this universe, and it has signs in it, which must be read. Those who read the signs are guided, and those who aren't are left in the dark. And by signs, I don't mean supernatural miracles.
god doesn't interfere with that system. That would be unfair. (or maybe god is the system?)
And I believe dreams are part of that system. They have their own purpose, like everything else.Now, maybe there purpose is to guide by giving us warnings/messages? Perhaps.
But the question is, where are those messages coming from?
I thought the answer was simple, but it's not. I think there are a lot of factors involved, and we can't discuss something this complicated unless we actually agree on the big and basic things like what is god etc.
We should just leave it at that for now.
There was this "dreams*" thread... -
Well, shouldn't we know what God is?
You can THINK you know what God is, my point is you can not be sure.
Unfortunately, what most people do is come up with an idea of god in their head, and then try to force that into reality.
nope, not most people but everyone, including me and you.... again we only think we know, but what we think know is not the same as reality or the actual truth
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BabyThespy,
I think you may have misunderstood me, I'm not saying that dreams are useless and not worthy of our attention, or that they can't help us in anyway. Dreams are important.This is the way I think god guides
god has written this universe, and it has signs in it, which must be read. Those who read the signs are guided, and those who aren't are left in the dark. And by signs, I don't mean supernatural miracles.
god doesn't interfere with that system. That would be unfair. (or maybe god is the system?)
And I believe dreams are part of that system. They have their own purpose, like everything else.I just thought I would point out a contradiction that you have just made from your first post in this thread.
just one thing...god doesn't speak to us through dreams. Our dreams show us what is in our subconscious (or soul). What you saw in your dream came from inside you, not from anywhere else. The dream showed you what you already believed.