My Dream of Truth
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anyway, regardless of what the quran says, I do not think god sends us special messages through our dreams, even if god does, we can't believe in them because we can think god is telling us ANYTHING in our dreams...
Thanks for clarifying. That's all you needed to say O0i'm done... peace
Me too.
PEACE
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so tell me Lobster how BabyThespy had things in her dream that she's never heard/known of? How's that possible?
No idea. But it sure wasn't something supernatural.
There are a lot of things in our subconscious that we don't know about. I bet we know everything that's going to happen to us.Thanks for clarifying. That's all you needed to say O0
Yeah I know, but I didn't wanna say it because it would end the discussion and I wouldn't get a chance to explain why I thought it did not contradict the quran.
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peace Katara,
Let's say a teacher told the students, "if you choose answer B, you get minus 10 marks,"
and the student asked, "why?"
the teacher said, "it is the system"
student asked, "why follow the system?"
the teacher answered "because i made it and because i say so"Yeah, the system is there, and we all know it. I know that I will get hurt if I hit myself with a bat. I know that I will die if I don't eat for a few days.
God doesn't control us like puppets.
God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead. But that's what the quran says!
I don't think that's what the quran says, and even if it does, I disagree.
We can't take it literally.
If we take "god does..." or "god shows..." literally, then that means if we used to believe in falsehood in the past, god would never have allowed us to find the truth, because god misguides the disbelievers, right?
and we would wait for that dream to come to give us a sign. People wouldn't do anything but wait.
Everything that I just said, God is making me say it.I remember when Jonny K converted to "evolutionism," he said he saw several signs that must've been from God. I disagree with him that god put those signs there. They were just things and events, and it was HE who chose to interpret them that way.
We can control what happens to us, because god does not interfere. -
where it things you knew, d'argento? connection through dreams ?
yes...interesting one; although the main focus/point of the dream was
"Who is Jesus" And thats the question she has had in her mind, and she got her answer. I mean some of the descriptions/verses were straight from the quran and she didn't read it yet ! You are also presuming that BabyThespy is/or would blindly believe in the Quran based on her dream...obviously if the quran had bad logic or bad science, or contradicitons etc... it couldn't be from God.
There are a lot of things in our subconscious that we don't know about. I bet we know everything that's going to happen to us.[/
Your proof for that is? Too much speculation you don't know for sure either/or. Love to leave it to guesswork dontcha?
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peace Dargento,
Your proof for that is? Too much speculation you don't know for sure either/or. Love to leave it to guesswork dontcha?
Ever heard of subliminal messages? course you have. How come people believe them without actually realizing they're believing in it?
A lot of stuff gets in there without us realizing (that's why the quran says we must guard our salat).
If dreams do reveal our subconscious, and there is scientific evidence that suggests that, then they could show us tons of stuff we have no idea about.
And from what I've seen, our mind contains some pretty mysterious stuff.Of course, none of this conclusively explains Babythespy's dreams, but we can't just say that the dream was some supernatural message.
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Peace Lobster,
If dreams do reveal our subconscious, and there is scientific evidence that suggests that,
There are scientific studies suggesting a billion different things.... I am not saying its not true ... i am just saying I take it as a grain of salt. I don't find the scientific community or studies much more trustworthy than the religious community
And from what I've seen, our mind contains some pretty mysterious stuff.
I agree
Of course, none of this conclusively explains Babythespy's dreams,
Yep
but we can't just say that the dream was some supernatural message.
Depends on your definition of what supernatural is....
Do I know what/who God is? No
Does anybody? No
Therefore it's something impossible to speculate on...What if in the end we find out that God was very natural and was among us physically? Who knows.... I certainly won't dismiss that idea -
God doesn't control us like puppets.
God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead.We can control what happens to us, because god does not interfere.
I agree that God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead. But what if God is leading all of us through signs/dreams? Maybe some people just realize a sign/dream for what it could possibly be and others just shrug them off as coincidence, subconscious, forget their dreams, or just simply have not put together that the things that are happening to them are somehow connected. I don't pretend to know what God does or anything like that. I am simply pointing out a possibility.
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peace
Dargento,
I agree that scientific observations can be conflicting...we can't trust them completely. But we have to use what we have seen to understand something, as opposed to coming up with explanations that go completely against what we've observed.Depends on your definition of what supernatural is....
Do I know what/who God is? No
Does anybody? No
Therefore it's something impossible to speculate on...What if in the end we find out that God was very natural and was among us physically? Who knows.... I certainly won't dismiss that ideaWell, shouldn't we know what God is?
I think what the quran is describing as "god" is something natural, something that we can observe, and thus believe in and trust.
Unfortunately, what most people do is come up with an idea of god in their head, and then try to force that into reality.
If you don't see it, it probably isn't there.
and if we are to take the quran literally, then god is simply "the ultimate truth."BabyThespy,
I agree that God doesn't pick certain people to guide and others to mislead. But what if God is leading all of us through signs/dreams? Maybe some people just realize a sign/dream for what it could possibly be and others just shrug them off as coincidence, subconscious, forget their dreams, or just simply have not put together that the things that are happening to them are somehow connected. I don't pretend to know what God does or anything like that. I am simply pointing out a possibility.
I think you may have misunderstood me, I'm not saying that dreams are useless and not worthy of our attention, or that they can't help us in anyway. Dreams are important.
This is the way I think god guides
god has written this universe, and it has signs in it, which must be read. Those who read the signs are guided, and those who aren't are left in the dark. And by signs, I don't mean supernatural miracles.
god doesn't interfere with that system. That would be unfair. (or maybe god is the system?)
And I believe dreams are part of that system. They have their own purpose, like everything else.Now, maybe there purpose is to guide by giving us warnings/messages? Perhaps.
But the question is, where are those messages coming from?
I thought the answer was simple, but it's not. I think there are a lot of factors involved, and we can't discuss something this complicated unless we actually agree on the big and basic things like what is god etc.
We should just leave it at that for now.
There was this "dreams*" thread... -
Well, shouldn't we know what God is?
You can THINK you know what God is, my point is you can not be sure.
Unfortunately, what most people do is come up with an idea of god in their head, and then try to force that into reality.
nope, not most people but everyone, including me and you.... again we only think we know, but what we think know is not the same as reality or the actual truth
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BabyThespy,
I think you may have misunderstood me, I'm not saying that dreams are useless and not worthy of our attention, or that they can't help us in anyway. Dreams are important.This is the way I think god guides
god has written this universe, and it has signs in it, which must be read. Those who read the signs are guided, and those who aren't are left in the dark. And by signs, I don't mean supernatural miracles.
god doesn't interfere with that system. That would be unfair. (or maybe god is the system?)
And I believe dreams are part of that system. They have their own purpose, like everything else.I just thought I would point out a contradiction that you have just made from your first post in this thread.
just one thing...god doesn't speak to us through dreams. Our dreams show us what is in our subconscious (or soul). What you saw in your dream came from inside you, not from anywhere else. The dream showed you what you already believed.
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peace
Babythespy,
I just thought I would point out a contradiction that you have just made from your first post in this thread.
How is that a contradiction? confused
Dargento,
nope, not most people but everyone, including me and you.... again we only think we know, but what we think know is not the same as reality or the actual truth
Isn't that being a bit fatalistic? I think we CAN know the actual reality, and I'm sure some people do know the truth.
We CAN know god. -
Isn't that being a bit fatalistic? I think we CAN know the actual reality, and I'm sure some people do know the truth.
We CAN know god.Can we? What is God? No-one can conclusively prove that to anyone. There has to be faith involved...The mind is also capable of manufacturing things or what 'truth' is. Really it's a person's version of the truth (based on experiences, the way they see things etc...). Not everyone has the same amount of knowledge. And how do you decide who's the most knowledgable? And how do you decide which truth to believe in? This becomes subjective
I myself know that God exists, but do I know who/what he is? No. Do i want to more than anything? Absolutely!
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But if you don't know what god is, how do you know it exists?
Why have you decided that there must be faith involved...why can't it be proven?How do you decide who's the most knowledgeable? Well, why would you have to?
If we want to learn from someone else (as opposed to personal experience), then we take what they've told us and we verify it.It's true everyone sees things differently, but there are truths that everyone can see. The sky is blue, right? No one out there will tell you that it's not. Where subjectivity comes in is when you ask "the sky is blue. What does that mean...what does it say?"
But we are not scientists, we aren't proving anything to anyone, we need information for our personal spiritual guidance, for this purpose, subjective does just fine.
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lol this thread is all over the map
But if you don't know what god is, how do you know it exists?
Why have you decided that there must be faith involved...why can't it be proven?Through logic I believe God exists ... Well you tell me how do you prove to an atheist or an agnostic that God exists?
It's true everyone sees things differently, but there are truths that everyone can see. The sky is blue, right? No one out there will tell you that it's not. Where subjectivity comes in is when you ask "the sky is blue. What does that mean...what does it say?"
you mentioned a 'black and white' example, what about things start getting 'grey-er'? For example I believe the Quran is the truth, while a lot of others don't... you really can't be sure who really is right. I have verified the signs myself all of them, while others verification process led them to believe that the quran is not from God. But you are right, there are things we can all see, its rare though... we are arguing all the time....
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How is that a contradiction? confused
B/c you said that god doesn't really speak to us through dreams in your first post, but now you are saying that god guides us through dreams. Yes, dreams are a part of the system in which he guide, but guiding is quite similar to speaking. If god uses dreams to guide us, then he must be speaking to us. Even if it is not specifically to us as individuals.