Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?

progod

Peace,

I don't see the need to look for a specific day or time of gathering/socialization. A time of gathering (yawmul-jumu&at) like al-ibil in 8817 i.e Camels not the (specific) camels or al-malaku in 8922, here meaning angels or (all) the angels and not just 'the (specific) angel' includes every time of jumu&at and jumu&at is any socialization or gathering of people.
So it is not just hajj, although it includes hajj. It is when we are in our houses chatting, talking on the phone, at the mall, in a meeting, at a fair or at any event that has to do with human socialization of some sort.

Idhaa noodia in this context is literally 'whenever/if called, invited or summoned.' So whenever we are invited, called or summoned to prayer, min (which means during or away from) during an event or pulling us away from an event we are to go and pray and leave behind any type of trade as well (as we all know people are overly concerned about money and their livelihood). Prayer is to come first. So honestly we need, when God has called us to pray or when others remind us, to pray and then come back to what we were doing. The intasharoo of 6210 is obviously saying go about the land as you would normally after praying and is a collective commmand for all those who would stop what they are doing to have a word and think on our Lord.

There is no assumed specific gathering being addressed in these passages.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Peace brother Anwar,

Thank you for the clarification. You have a point and I need to revise my understanding accordingly. You are right, it is not AL-YAWM Al-JUM3ATI (THE time of gathering/assembly) but YAWM AL-JUM3ATI (time of gathering).

progod

Peace,

AL AL constructions can be collective as well, however al-yawmul-jumu&ati makes no sense grammatically. Yawm is masculine and the second word needs to describe the first. The second word is feminine so that doesn't work. It has to be changed to masculine. You do this by dropping the ta marbootah and adding a y. Like someone who is from makkatu is a makkee, Someone who is from a university (jaami&atun) is a jaami&ee, someone who follows the sunnah (or sunnatun) is a sunni or shiah (or shiatun) shi'ee.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Peace Anwar,

Thank you for the Arabic lesson. So if it was referring to a specific day, would it then be "al-yawm al-jum3" or "al-yawm al-jum3ee" ? The second question is that is it grammatically possible for the phrase "yawm al-jum3ati" to refer to a specific day ?

progod

Peace,

In Arabic it is not as clear as that. Definite in Arabic can refer to a definite object, day etc. or it can refer to a collective.
A classical example of this is 8922's use of Al-malaku to mean all angels and not 'the angel' as one of the examples I pointed out before.

In Classical Arabic some nouns have collectives that are different than the regular noun. For instance al-Arabee for 'the Arab man/thing/language' and Al-Arabu for Arabs in general. There are other words that have a specific word for the collective, but most will just use the definite singular or plural. If we take the word dog as an example, in order to say 'Dogs' in general you either say al-kalbu (literally 'the dog&#039 or al-kilaabu (literally 'the dogs&#039.

So if you are looking for a way to say 'the gathering day' exclusively like we do in English to mean a specific gathering day and nothing else, that does not exist in most cases in Arabic. When you say 'the gathering day' in Arabic you can be talking about a specific gathering day OR gathering days in general. Do you understand what I mean?

So in a summary

Al-yawmu Al-jum&ati/Al-jum&atu = GRAMMATICALLY WRONG.

Al-yawmu Al-jum&eeyu/Al-jum&ee= GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT. However this can refer to a specific gathering day or all gathering days.

yawmul-jum&ati= is based on the meaning of al-jum&atu because literally this construction is 'The gathering's day'. Since al-jumu&ati can mean the gathering or all gathering, yawmul-jum&ati can also refer to a specific day or all days/times of gathering.

So, is there a way to refer to a specific gathering exclusively without POSSIBLY (even if not probably) referring to the general, collective concept of that gathering? No. It can be either or, and the context is what dictates the understanding.

Since the understanding 'times of gathering' can include all times of gathering, including Hajj, why limit the more universal message of going to pray when called to pray despite social gatherings only to Hajj? It is obvious that this also includes Hajj. It is also obvious that human beings have and also will participate in more social gatherings than just the Hajj, and that our commemoration and remembrance of God through prayer when he tells us to pray is always important despite any social gathering in which we may find ourselves, Hajj or whatever else.

Godbless,
Anwar

Wakas

Thanks for that Anwar. It is a shame that the theoretical possibilites of the Arabic are rarely, if ever, commented upon in translations. This is only one of the many reasons why I dislike translations. Almost all are of an outdated approach... as they are more concerned with making new chains, rather than breaking them.

In any case, would you care to clarify the grammar of 597 for us on either of the following threads
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9837.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15673

unknownuser

Peace Anwar,

Thank you for the comprehensive reply; it helps a lot. Looking forward to your grammatical understanding of 597 in the appropriate thread, as inquired by Wakas. May God bless you for your efforts.

Ashraf

( ) "prayers" indicates that they are more than two

( ) "The Middle" indicates that they must be an odd number

peace

As God never run out of words, He will definitely put the word "As-Solatain" ! , if there is only two prayer time..agree with you Stefan. The only thing still curious to me is that prayer time No. 2 and No. 3 according to your deduction, are quite closed to each other, which might be cumbersome..feedbacks welcome..

Ashraf

isha starts from sunset. When it ends varies between scholars, but they agree on when it starts. I would say it ends with darkness (ghasaqul lail).

Peace All,

Have you ever consider the following sentence shall refers to ONLY ONE subject matter respectively

?Dulu kis shams ila ghasaqil lail? (sun?s decline till the darkness of the night) - One range of time
?Faghsilu?.wa aidiyakum ila al-marafiq? (Wash your hand till your elbows) - Hand washing range
?Famsahu?.wa arjulakum ila al-ka?bain? (Wipe your feet till your ankles) - Feet wiping range

Again my question to Stefan...Is that normal to break item No. 1 into 2 subject matter, since you are refering to 2 prayer time in this particular sentence ? Is there any instances of usage in similarity in other verses to support your conclusion...but I certainly agree that total prayer timing shall not be 2 (It was not "Solatain" (2), instead it was "Salawat" (plural)

Kind regards,
Ashraf

Samia

Peace All,

Have you ever consider the following sentence shall refers to ONLY ONE subject matter respectively

?Dulu kis shams ila ghasaqil lail? (sun?s decline till the darkness of the night) - One range of time
?Faghsilu?.wa aidiyakum ila al-marafiq? (Wash your hand till your elbows) - Hand washing range
?Famsahu?.wa arjulakum ila al-ka?bain? (Wipe your feet till your ankles) - Feet wiping range

Again my question to Stefan...Is that normal to break item No. 1 into 2 subject matter, since you are refering to 2 prayer time in this particular sentence ? Is there any instances of usage in similarity in other verses to support your conclusion...but I certainly agree that total prayer timing shall not be 2 (It was not "Solatain" (2), instead it was "Salawat" (plural)

Salaam Ashraf

Very good analysis for "ila"...but you still can't see it two times for salaat!
I think you imagine God talking about our salaats per day, not about ALL of them in our lifetime.
Kind regards,
Ashraf

Ashraf

I think you imagine God talking about our salaats per day, not about ALL of them in our lifetime.

Ok noted...let me digest it for a while...by the way, is there any similar instances ?

jonny_k

Peace "tanveer",
I noticed a problem with your claim of redundancy in "..assalawaat WA assalaatul wusata..." where the latter cannot be a part of the former. However this is not a valid claim since the Quran often uses redundancy to make an issue look more important/significant. Eg is the famous phrase "kitaab WAL hikmah" where clearly the latter is part of the former. Or "atee ullah WA arrasool" again only clarifies that GOD is to be obeyed through the Words which He sends THROUGH his messenger. The phrase couldve just been "atee ullah" but GOD wanted to clarify it further since Hes communicating through a messenger. So this argument needs to be dropped otherwise the sectarians could use it against us at some stage. GOD Bless!

stefan_rosty

Peace everyone,

Please read the following

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooliyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukumwaallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkumthalatha marratin min qabli salatialfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheeratiwamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathuAAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahunbaAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukumAAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahulakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun

Literal You, you those who believed, those who your rights (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-givers under contract), and those who did not reach the puberty/sexual maturity from you should ask for your permission three times, from before the dawn's prayers, and when you put your clothes/garments (on) from the noon/midday, and from after the evening/first darkness prayers, three shameful genital parts (protective times are) for you, an offense/sin is not on you, and nor on them after them (the three times) circling/walking around on you, some of you to some, as/like that God clarifies/shows/explains for you the verses/evidences , and God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious. 2458

The Chronological Order of Revelation 102

Sura Name An-Nur

Number of Verses 64

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 24

This verse clearly identifies two prayer times, mentioned for the first time by name al fajr (the sunrise) and al aishaa (the night), the 2-Salat group has taken it to mean that there are no other prayer times. However, in its context, this verse is merely organizing the day for believers and has chosen the fajr (sunrise) and aishaa (night) as the start and end points of the working day. The fact that no other times were mentioned (aside from noon whereby the believers change their clothes) does not mean that there are no other times for prayer.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooitha noodiya lilssalati min yawmialjumuAAati faisAAaw ila thikri Allahiwatharoo albayAAa thalikum khayrun lakum in kuntumtaAAlamoona
Fa-itha qudiyati alssalatufaintashiroo fee al-ardi waibtaghoo min fadliAllahi waothkuroo Allaha katheeranlaAAallakum tuflihoona

Literal You, you those who believed, if (it) was called to the prayers from the Friday's/gathering's day/time, so hasten/move quickly to God's reminder/mention, and leave the selling/trading, that (is) best for you, if you were knowing
So if the prayers were accomplished/ended , so spread/spread out in the Earth/land , and ask/wish/desire from God's grace/favour/blessing, and mention/remember/praise/ glorify God much, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.. 629-10

The Chronological Order of Revelation 110

Sura Name Al-Jumua

Number of Verses 11

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 62

This verse orders believers to come to prayer upon the calling of Prophet Mohamed on the day of gathering, falsely taken to mean on Friday as observed by most of the Islamic world . If indeed there are only two times for prayer, fajr (sunst) and aishaa (night), and as clearly stated in the above verse that people shall work only after fajr (sunrise ) and before aishaa (night), then how then does this verse order Muslims to abandon work and come to prayer?

This entails that there must be a third time for prayer (salat al wusta) that falls at the time of work, which will logically entail that Muslims should abandon their work and come to prayer. When then is this third time for prayer? Some have suggested that it is in the daytime as this is when people work. However, the previous verse clearly suggests that work will go on until aishaa (night) and so towards sunset, work will still be operating.

Another proof that this prayer does not have to fall in daytime is that even before any mention of this communal call for prayer, God has spoken of those who are not distracted from prayer by work (2437)

Rijalun la tulheehim tijaratunwala bayAAun AAan thikri Allahi wa-iqamialssalati wa-eeta-i alzzakatiyakhafoona yawman tataqallabu feehi alquloobu waal-absaru

Literal Men commercial trade and nor selling/trading does not distract/divert them from mentioning/remembering God, and keeping up the prayers and giving/bringing the charity/purification , they fear a day/time the hearts/minds and the eye sight/knowledge turns around in it. 2437

The Chronological Order of Revelation 102

Sura Name An-Nur

Number of Verses 64

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 24

This verse speaks of how generally, some people, not even work will distract them from their praying duties. Interestingly, the prayer times mentioned till now do not fall at the times of work, yet what is intended is that work might consume some people and distract them from their duties towards God.

Peace peace

stefan_rosty

Peace all,

According to my research, the obligatory salaat for muslimeen/mumineen is only two times a day per the Qur'aan salaat of dawn (salaat al-fajr) and salaat of dusk (salaat al-isha).

The time of salaat of dawn is anytime from onset of dawn to before sunrise, and salaat of dusk is from onset of sunset to onset of complete darkness. Please see the following links for further discussion on this topic

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.msg92976#msg92976

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta&quot

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13595.msg115426#msg115426 (onwards until #9)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12074.msg114433#msg114433

One can perform "additional salaat" (naafilah) if one likes for extra credit, which is optional

1779 And from the night awake for it additionally (naafilatan) for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.

Some comments on the timing of the salaat of the mumineen/muslimeen

TWO EDGES OF THE DAYTIME

11114 And you shall hold the connection/salaat at the two edges (tarafayi) of the daytime, and the near parts (zulafan) of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

The "zulafan" in 11114 is plural, not singular, meaning "near PARTS of the night".

ZLF * plural * ZoLaF * ZaLFat

The word (&#1577 "AL ZULFA" was used to describe the early hours of the darkness ( ), and the edge of the day is before the darkness.

http//ar.wiktionary.org/

Waaqimi alssalata tarafayialnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanatiyuthhibna alssayyi-ati thalika thikralilththakireena

Literal And keep up the prayers to (the) ends/edges (of) the daytime and (to) parts from the night ; that the goodnesses wipe off/eliminate the sins/crimes, that (is) a remembrance/reminder to the praising/glorifying. 11114

The Chronological Order of Revelation 52

Sura Name Hud

Number of Verses 123

Location of Revelation Mecca

Traditional Order 11

This verse clearly outlines three prayer times the two ends of the daytime and the beginning of the night. The word "tarafay " or edges indicates that there are two times and then the "and " indicates that there is a third prayer time. This I find contradicts the two-time prayer theory because it clearly states that there is a third time for prayer, as indicated by the "and ". Their claim is the the later edge of the night is the one approaching the night. But then what is the "and " doing in that phrase? Logically, linguistically speaking, the "and " suggests that there is another prayer time aside from the two edges of the daytime.

stefan_rosty

(Sura Taha 20130).

Faisbir AAala mayaqooloona wasabbih bihamdi rabbika qabla tulooAAialshshamsi waqabla ghuroobiha wamin ana-iallayli fasabbih waatrafa alnnaharilaAAallaka tarda

Literal So you be patient on what they say, and praise/glorify with your Lord's praise/gratitude/thanks, before the sun's ascent/rising, and before its decline/setting ,

and from the night's hours so praise/glorify and the daytime's ends/edges, maybe/perhaps you accept/approve.

I think that "daytime's ends/edges" are ( ) "before the sun's ascent/rising" and ( ) "before its decline/setting" because it is impossible to identify any other ( ) "before the sun's ascent/rising" timing in the desert according to the sun, except minutes before sunrise when you can see light, or when ?The white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn.? (2187).

stefan_rosty

Waaqimi alssalata tarafayialnnahari wazulafan mina allayli

timing of Salat was known in Mecca to be at ( &#1604 (the) ends/edges (of) the daytime and (to) parts from the night.

Automatically you have to conclude that the followers had to give the salat a definition to be able to seperate them from each other when they are speaking.

The ends/edges (of) the daytime prayer (salat taraf al nahar) is not enough because it could be at sunrise or sunset.

In Medina, their names/definitions were given

Salat Al Fajr Al Fajr ( burst/gush of light ) is the first end/edge, thats why they used to call it Salat Al Fajr (245

Root F J R ( ) http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?root=%D9%81%D8%AC%D8%B1%0D

Salat Al Eshaa Al Eshaa ( lack of light ) is at the Darkness when you can't see, and Salat Al Eshaa is the ending point of the working/public day (245.

Root 3 SH A ( ) http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=43&vid=36

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooliyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukumwaallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkumthalatha marratin min qabli salatialfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheeratiwamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathuAAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahunbaAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukumAAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahulakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun

Literal You, you those who believed, those who your rights (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-givers under contract), and those who did not reach the puberty/sexual maturity from you should ask for your permission three times, from before the dawn's prayers, and when you put your clothes/garments (on) from the noon/midday, and from after the evening/first darkness prayers, three shameful genital parts (protective times are) for you, an offense/sin is not on you, and nor on them after them (the three times) circling/walking around on you, some of you to some, as/like that God clarifies/shows/explains for you the verses/evidences , and God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious. 2458

The Chronological Order of Revelation 102

Sura Name An-Nur

Number of Verses 64

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 24

This verse is a cause of much discrepancy between the two-time prayer theorists and the three-time prayer theorists. As this verse clearly identifies two prayer times, mentioned for the first time by name al fajr and al eshaa, the former group has taken it to mean that there are no other prayer times.

However, in its context, this verse is merely organizing the day for believers and has chosen the fajr and eshaa as the start and end points of the day. The fact that no other times were mentioned (aside from noon whereby the believers change their clothes) does not mean that there are no other times for prayer.

Samia

However, in its context, this verse is merely organizing the day for believers and has chosen the fajr and eshaa as the start and end points of the day. The fact that no other times were mentioned (aside from noon whereby the believers change their clothes) does not mean that there are no other times for prayer.

Salaam stefan

However, in its context, this verse is merely organizing the day for believers and has chosen the fajr and eshaa as the start and end points of the day. The fact that no other times were mentioned (aside from noon whereby the believers change their clothes) does not mean that there are no other times for prayer.

Salaam stefan

The time left is between (after) isha salaat and (before) fajr salaat sleep.

I believe that if there was another salaat during the day, between fajr and ishaa, its time should be one of the (3awraat) more than when we take off our clothes (3wra in this verse = time to be lef alone).

stefan_rosty

salat al fajr/eshaa are not included as private (3awra) in 2458

salat is not a private timing

Samia

salat al fajr/eshaa are not included as private (3awra) in 2458

salat is not a private timing

I agree. These times before fajr and after isha are when we are asleep or going to sleep.

But this is marked by salaat. Why not just say when you are asleep or going to bed, unless it is to mark our day by salaats? So salaat is used as marker. It may not exclude a third or a tenth salaat (how many can you insert here?), but it is up to the understanding of the reader to add markers, then it is just his/her own understanding.

ImamQuranonly

As Salaamu Alaikum all,

Just to clarify, there is a THIRD Salaat for sure. It is called so to speak "tahajjud". The difference for this Salaat is that it is NOT obligatory. It is a voluntary Salaat for "extra credit" with Allah. I would called these "sunnah" Salaat if I were to invent an additional term to describe what they are, but I won't. They are dealt with clearly in Al Quran and come during the night after Isha and before Fajr.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace