Where do we face for Salat (Becca issue) and what of our Tawuf on Hajj?
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"hajj" is a very interesting topic. If you seek a Quran based "hajj" then it has been discussed many times on the forum, please use the search function at the top.
Alternatively, read every occcurrence of the root here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.hajja vb. (1)
perf. act. 2158
n.vb. 2189, 2196, 2196, 2196, 2197, 2197, 2197, 397, 93, 2227
pcple. act. 919hijaj n.f. (pl. of hijjah) 2827
hujjah n.f. 2150, 4165, 683, 6149, 4215, 4216, 4525
hajja vb. (3)
perf. act. 2258, 320, 361, 366, 680
impf. act. 276, 2139, 365, 366, 373, 680, 4216tahajja vb. (6) impf. act. 4047
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 149, 150, 151
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Peace Wakas,
Thank you for those links, I read them all. It opened my eyes to other possibilities besides the ones that are predominantly Sunni ideaologogies. Ive detested the Hajj in regards to other Muslims as I read that they are so obsessed with physical objects. Its as if they dont gain anything out of it, but lose. People being trampled, kissing a black stone, etc. Ive told myself that I didnt want to do Hajj (Pilgrimage) because of that.
My question now is (sorry if asked before, I have a feeling it is) where do we gather to argue? Also what of these ayat
O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka'ba. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
GOD has fulfilled His messenger's truthful vision "You will enter the Sacred Masjid, GOD willing, perfectly secure, and you will cut your hair or shorten it (as you fulfill the pilgrimage rituals) there. You will not have any fear. Since He knew what you did not know, He has coupled this with an immediate victory."
Also what of the Qiblah and Becca? Does Becca still exist? If so, do we turn our heads that way now? Thanks again.
Peace
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Peace lobster,
I agree that obeying god and prostrating your mind is what should be the first and foremost part of sujood, but is the physical act of sujood somehow not supported in the Quran? Doesnt the Quran talk about us bowing and such in regards to the physical salaat? Also what of the Jews that did the same thing?
I didnt go through all of that thread, read some pieces of it. In my last post, I was talking about the links that Wakas provided, they were all 2 pages each. Also great thread and thanks for bringing that question up as I have learned a great deal today.
Peace
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Salaam amuslim,
First of all welcome to the forum welcome
Looks like you haven't read all the posts in the thread "Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba" (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.0), because your questions have been answered there in detail !!
Please learn how to use the search function at the top of the forum page (between help and profile), and search for different topics that you are interested in and try to read the various relevant discussions that have already taken place on this forum in the past in which most of your questions have already been addressed in detail.
Some other relevant threads/posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14268.0 (kaaba and makkah issue)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11674.0 (qibla issue)
While reading the above thread, please keep in mind that since writing that article, my understanding of "al-masjid al-haraam" has changed to "the inviolable institution of obedience", because it is grammatically accurate and in line with the Qur'aanic concept of "al-masjid al-haraam" being "the truth from our Lord" (2144, 2149); please replace the understanding in the above article (institution of obeying the forbidden) with this current one (the inviolable institution of obedience).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14094.msg132485#msg132485 (qibla issue)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14637.msg136853#msg136853 (sujood issue)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12918.msg107283#msg107283 onwards (sujood issue)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14695.msg136559#msg136559 (qibla, sujood, salaat etc.)
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Peace Tanveer and thanks for the welcome.
I have read parts of the first two links you posted. I actually read the "Kaaba and Makkah Issue" yesterday and regarding the "Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba" theres just too many pages to go through it in one day, but I read most of what I needed out of it.
I shall read the other 4 links later as I am stuck on time. Thank you for the effort that you put in those posts and for providing them here.
Peace
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Peace amuslim,
You are most welcome. Take your time to research the issues from the Qur'aan and verify them for yourself per 1736 and seek help from The God with patience and salaat/connection, for only The God guides.
Regarding the "bakkah" issue, please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7615.msg122881#msg122881
Please read the following articles by Ayman which you will find very relevant
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
As far as "tawwafa" of the house is concerned, there are those who translate "tawwafoo" in 2229 as "circumambulate" or "walk around" (seven times ?) hmm nope
My comment to them is, if that is true, then
- In 2458 we hear about "circumambulating" (tawwafoona) each other in 2458 (seven times ?),
- and the cups, dishes, round vessels of silver, and goblets of gold and crystal will "circumambulate" (taafu) the people in heaven according to 3745, 4371, and 7615 (seven times ?),
- and youths will "circumambulate" (toofu) those people according to 5224, 5617, and 7619 (seven times ?),
- and the people in hell will "circumambulate" (toofoona) the boiling hot water per 5544 (seven times ?),
- and wind "circumambulated" (taafa) the farms per 6819 (seven times ?)
According to Lane Lexicon
Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass
Ref PRL under root Tay-Waw-Fa (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
It is obvious that in the context of the Qur'aan, the usage of the word "tawwafa" does not imply "circumambulation" but clearly means "come upon/visit/go about/pass by".
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Peace Tanveer,
Peace amuslim,
You are most welcome. Take your time to research the issues from the Qur'aan and verify them for yourself per 1736 and seek help from The God with patience and salaat/connection, for only The God guides.
Regarding the "bakkah" issue, please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7615.msg122881#msg122881
Please read the following articles by Ayman which you will find very relevant
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
As far as "tawwafa" of the house is concerned, there are those who translate "tawwafoo" in 2229 as "circumambulate" or "walk around" (seven times ?) hmm nope
My comment to them is, if that is true, then
- In 2458 we hear about "circumambulating" (tawwafoona) each other in 2458 (seven times ?),
- and the cups, dishes, round vessels of silver, and goblets of gold and crystal will "circumambulate" (taafu) the people in heaven according to 3745, 4371, and 7615 (seven times ?),
- and youths will "circumambulate" (toofu) those people according to 5224, 5617, and 7619 (seven times ?),
- and the people in hell will "circumambulate" (toofoona) the boiling hot water per 5544 (seven times ?),
- and wind "circumambulated" (taafa) the farms per 6819 (seven times ?)
According to Lane Lexicon
Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass
Ref PRL under root Tay-Waw-Fa (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
It is obvious that in the context of the Qur'aan, the usage of the word "tawwafa" does not imply "circumambulation" but clearly means "come upon/visit/go about/pass by".
All I can say is wow and thanks. This is so much information that I should be busy for some time. I just started reading "Whats in a name" by Ayman and he makes very good points. Ive read the safa and marwah thread as well, and most of what I got out of it was the definition of words, but it was good nonetheless and informative.
You guys sure put a lot of effort in this, and I am thankful for having everyone around. Time to go back to reading.
Peace
EDIT I have gone through almost all of the "Whats in the Name" and I am a bit stuck on salat. He says its a "learning connection". What about wudu? I saw that he mentioned about washing, but the Quran says that Wudu is obligatory before Salat whereas Ayman states that its just to wash if I am correct? Same with sexual relations where you have to wash the whole body instead of the 4 parts of the body. Also how does Tayammum fit in all this? May God guide us all to the right path.
However I must say that it is a very good article. When I read about the sujood it made a lot of sense. I was a bit bothered on the angels literally prostrating to Adam, I found personally found it a bit idolotric but this clears up a lot mashallah. However, do you guys believe that we can still physically sujood even though its not really from the quran (ive changed my use of words, thank you)? I personally find salat (with Al Fatihah with ruku and sujood) quite helpful in remembering God. Even facing East, I dont even think of Kaaba since I find that in and of itself idolotric. Also, what of this ayatun?
"And honor the Salat, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel." (The Message 243) from Laythes page
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Salaam brother amuslim,
In my understanding, based on the context, sujood implies only mental obedience in some places in the Qur'aan and also implies mental + physical sujood in some places (17107, 17109), and physical prostration alone in some places (2724, 4137). I agree that the sujood of the malaika to Adam was a mental one (234, 711 etc.), as well as the mental sujood of Joseph's parents to him (they yielded to him/obeyed him 12100). I guess you have not read my discussions on sujood that I referenced in my post above. Here they are again
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12918.msg107283#msg107283 (read all the posts from this post onwards )
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14637.msg136853#msg136853 (read all of mine and bro Mazhar's posts from this post onwards)
I have proven in the above posts from the Qur'aan that in some places sujood is both mental and physical, especially in the context of timed salaat of the muslimeen (17106-111 combined with 4102). Of course, the mental component of sujood (obedience to The God) is more important than the physical component of the sujood to the chin (yakhirroon lilazqaani sujjadan 17107). Without mental obedience to The God, a physical sujood to the chin is useless.
In addition to that, there is an obligatory physical pre-salaat ablution according to 56
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14772.0
In my understanding, there is also a mental + physical ruku3 in the timed salaat of the muslimeen according to the Qur'aan, but it is not bowing but kneeling position
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13496.0 (salaat and ruku)
Again, the mental component of ruku3 (humility to The God) is more important than the physical component of kneeling. In many places in the Qur'aan, ruku3 also refers to mental humility alone, based on the context.
Brother Ayman had written that article "what's in the name" a while back, and some of his understandings have changed since then and I think he will be revising that article soon. For example, he agrees now that "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the inviolable institution of obedience", and that "bakkah" is a common noun as mentioned in the Qur'aan, and I don't think he denies a physical sujood to the chin, of course with the mental obedience to The God being the more important aspect of sujood, but you should ask him directly about this.
In my understanding, establishing salaat/connection/link/learning connection with The God (aqeemus-salaat) has both mental and physical components according to the Qur'aan, with mental components being more important. For my understanding about some aspects of establishing salaat according to the Qur'aan, please see the following post and read all the links referenced in that post for evidence supporting my understanding from the Qur'aan
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14695.msg136559#msg136559
I also believe that "hajj" is an annual debate/conference for the ENTIRE MANKIND, which involves an annual market/trade fair and feast (witnessing the benefits and eating from the livestock 222. This is because we hear inviting mankind WITH the hajj (BIL HAJJ) instead of TO the hajj (ILA HAJJ), according to 2227. How can one invite the entire mankind with a pilgrimage which might not have any significance to the non-believers ? One can, however, invite the entire mankind with an annual market/trade fair and an annual feast, and then having a peaceful discussion with them at the bayt/house.
An analogy, which will be understood by the medical people very well, is that of a pharmaceutical drug conference, in hich the pharmaceutical representatives invite the doctors to a lecture/conference on a certain drug followed by a dinner at the end. I don't think most doctors will go to that conference if there was no free dinner at the end !!
Hope that helps. May The God guide us all to the truth and the straight path.
