Are we bound to the laws of the country where we live ?

ijaz

Salaam Lobster,

peace Ijaz,
"people's covenant" suggests a contract between people.
I don't think the government making laws without the people's consent counts as "people's covenant." If there's a law that is harmful, wrong, or just unecessary, (most laws are all three), then there is nothing wrong in ignoring them.

In a democratic society people elect their representative as a leader and that leader with the majority vote sets up the laws. So you are incorrect to assume that people are not involved, people of the country are fully involved in the law making as the government is. In England we have council voting as well which is part of the local law making of the country..

If you had tried you could have thought of what I said above, but never mind..

Regards

Ijaz

phoenix1

So you are telling me that in a democracy, the government does exactly what EVERYONE wants??
Democracy is the rule of the majority. As the quran tells us, the majority are always misguided.
Should we follow the laws that the misguided have voted for?
And even if the majority always turned out to be right, politicians are liars. They lie to get into office, they make false promises. They say one thing, and then do the complete opposite when they are elected.
And then, one of the good things about democracy is that people can question the laws and demand new ones. So even democracy is telling you that the government can be wrong.

If you had tried you could have thought of what I said above, but never mind..

So yeah, no matter what country you live in, no matter what type of government you have, you still should not follow laws that you know you shouldn't follow. Or at least fight against them.

The only contract you are obliged to follow is the contract you personally agreed to knowingly.

ijaz

So you are telling me that in a democracy, the government does exactly what EVERYONE wants??
Democracy is the rule of the majority. As the quran tells us, the majority are always misguided.
Should we follow the laws that the misguided have voted for?
And even if the majority always turned out to be right, politicians are liars. They lie to get into office, they make false promises. They say one thing, and then do the complete opposite when they are elected.
And then, one of the good things about democracy is that people can question the laws and demand new ones. So even democracy is telling you that the government can be wrong.

If you had tried you could have thought of what I said above, but never mind..

So yeah, no matter what country you live in, no matter what type of government you have, you still should not follow laws that you know you shouldn't follow. Or at least fight against them.

The only contract you are obliged to follow is the contract you personally agreed to knowingly.

You don't have to follow the law dictated by God and by the country 3112 if you don't want to, instead why don't you disobey the law and kill few people and steal some stuff, if that's what you want to do..

phoenix1

No, thank you, I'd rather not kill some people and steal some stuff...
My point is that 3112 is not talking about laws of the country, it's talking about contracts made between people. Yes, in a perfect country, that would hold true for the government as well, but it doesn't, not even for democracies as you suggested because there are no perfect governments.

What if your country passes a law that says that you can't go out of homes after 10 pm ( the "crime" teenagers get arrested for more than anything is breaking curfew). Or that if you are accused of being an "enemy of the state," you don't get a trial and you are tortured in prison until you admit to a crime you didn't commit.
What if your great democratic country passes a law that says you can't wear religious symbols in public?
Or if the government requires you to pay them and they use the money to finance wars and kill people?
Would you stand up for these laws or would you stand up against them?

peace,

ijaz

No, thank you, I'd rather not kill some people and steal some stuff...
My point is that 3112 is not talking about laws of the country, it's talking about contracts made between people.

That is a big statement, can you prove from the Quran, or are you just full of hotair and nothing else.

Yes, in a perfect country, that would hold true for the government as well, but it doesn't, not even for democracies as you suggested because there are no perfect governments.

I say your idea is incorrect, surley you cannot apply laws of Islam in a country which is SACULAR, indeed that is the reason God Almighty suggest in 3112 that we should abide by the law of the country which does not interfere with Islamic law.. Are you saying you know more then God..

What if your country passes a law that says that you can't go out of homes after 10 pm ( the "crime" teenagers get arrested for more than anything is breaking curfew). Or that if you are accused of being an "enemy of the state," you don't get a trial and you are tortured in prison until you admit to a crime you didn't commit.
What if your great democratic country passes a law that says you can't wear religious symbols in public?
Or if the government requires you to pay them and they use the money to finance wars and kill people?
Would you stand up for these laws or would you stand up against them?

peace,

You have wild imagination and you are forgetting one important thing, if you are innocent then nothing would happen to you, BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROLL, and He would not let believers down..

You should follow Quran not your opinions..

To GOD belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth, and all matters are controlled by GOD.

phoenix1

Ijaz, just read the verse again, does it mention "laws" or "country" or "Islamic?"
I don't agree with you, and I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

oh, and I don't have a wild imagination, the laws I mentioned are real and all are currently in place in democratic countries (not sure about what happened to the religious symbol one...)
and innocent people are being killed everyday, where is god, then?

If all matters are controlled by god, then isn't it true that God wants Iraqis and Palestinians to die everyday?
If god controls everything, then what's the point of doing anything? Why don't we just sit at home and read the Quran while everything happens by itself.

M_Mehdi

Can it be true that finaly Mr. Lobster and I agree??!! bravo

You don't have to follow the law dictated by God and by the country 3112 if you don't want to, instead why don't you disobey the law and kill few people and steal some stuff, if that's what you want to do..

Why would you think that someone who does not agree with and follow certain laws has to automaticly kill and steal?? There are laws on the books that are stupid and many people do not follow them... it doesn't mean that they are murders or thiefs!

So you are telling me that in a democracy, the government does exactly what EVERYONE wants??
Democracy is the rule of the majority. As the quran tells us, the majority are always misguided.

http//www.outrecords.com/gallery/misc/this_is_what_democracy_looks_like.jpg

ijaz

Ijaz, just read the verse again, does it mention "laws" or "country" or "Islamic?"
I don't agree with you, and I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

And does it say it is contract between people and God.

What did happen with Moses people when they were told to enter the gate of the city to live amicabily with the disbelievers which law would they have been following "PEOPLES LAW" as stated in 3112... And people like you were the ones who did not enter the city..

Recall that we said, "Enter this town, where you will find as many provisions as you like. Just enter the gate humbly, and treat the people nicely. We will then forgive your sins, and increase the reward for the pious."

But the wicked among them carried out commands other than the commands given to them. Consequently, we sent down upon the transgressors condemnation from the sky, due to their wickedness.

oh, and I don't have a wild imagination, the laws I mentioned are real and all are currently in place in democratic countries (not sure about what happened to the religious symbol one...)
and innocent people are being killed everyday, where is god, then?

If all matters are controlled by god, then isn't it true that God wants Iraqis and Palestinians to die everyday?
If god controls everything, then what's the point of doing anything? Why don't we just sit at home and read the Quran while everything happens by itself.

Your lack of confidence in GOD is PATHETIC, you should be ASHAMED OF YOURSELF for calling yourself a Muslim.. You are leading people to a crooked way you are dangerous, you will pay heavey debt on the day of judgement the retribution may start earlier..

I hope God never forgives you for misguiding people..

It is God's mercy that who ever dies before 40 goes to heaven..

You don't know what is in the hearts of who die only God does..

Alen

peace I don't think we are bound to the laws of our country. I mean, in a moral sense.
The article, though, I found weird. How is political liberalism = white supremacy??? He makes the connection like it's the most obvious thing in the world.
Islam is individual. It has to be. Otherwise, how can there not be compulsion?
Society is made up of individuals. We all do whatever the hell we want to do as individuals, that's our right to freedom. The only time someone's freedom is taken away is if someone infringes upon the rights of another. That should be the only law in the country.

Salam.

I agree.

Of course, we have to be careful in USA, for example, a person has a right to do or believe or think or say whatever s/he wants as long as that does not oppress others.

We have to ask ourselves, when does someone infringe upon the rights that we have? Better yet, what to do then?

May The Exalted God Most Merciful forgives us our sins and grants us Paradise.

Peace.

jonny_k

Peace "lobster",
First i agree with democracy and also with the fact that theocracy can logically only be brought through democracy also, since GOD doesnt Himself intervene but establishes His Laws THROUGH THE PEOPLE who employ the scientific mehtod, which everyone of us does at his/her own level whether he/she admits it or not, at least as far as his/her daily life is concerned. Its only where superstitious beleifs come in where the probs start.
Now you said amongst other things

The only time someone's freedom is taken away is if someone infringes upon the rights of another.

JK- Ofcourse id agree with this statement but this statment is also in much need of further definition. One can say that wearing a certain religious symbol in public can infringe upon the rights others by indirectly instilling hate in the religious group and motivating them to attck other individuals and/or promoting fascism. Another issue is that the "right" itself has to be defined. What if somebody for example steals from a person who has not worked for his earnings at all but just received the property as a gift? Would the thief be violating this "owners" right? So what now?
I can only rpeeat myseldf. Without the application of the scientiifc method and rational thought all these statments are just that "mere statements" with no proper meaning except emotional ones which if relied upon only lead to more disunity. This is exactly why i stress so much on the scientiifc method. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace Jonny,
sorry...totally forgot about this thread, i didn't even know you replied to my post until i came back earlier today to check something.

You are overly optimistic. The fact is that most people do not think freely, and are easily swayed by rhetoric and propaganda. It wasn't hard for Hitler (who gained power legally) to convince his people to kill their fellow countrymen, and it wasn't hard for Bush to lie to 300,000 people to kill 700,000. THAT is democracy.

Theocracy is the worst form of government you can have...even worse than democracy. Are you going to put people in prison for eating bacon?

People believe in crap and they follow crap, and there's nothing you can do about it. We can only look after ourselves.

JK- Ofcourse id agree with this statement but this statment is also in much need of further definition. One can say that wearing a certain religious symbol in public can infringe upon the rights others by indirectly instilling hate in the religious group and motivating them to attck other individuals and/or promoting fascism. Another issue is that the "right" itself has to be defined. What if somebody for example steals from a person who has not worked for his earnings at all but just received the property as a gift? Would the thief be violating this "owners" right? So what now?

Symbols do not cause violence. But if you could prove that a symbol is actually harming someone, that symbol would have to be banned from public places (and public places only).
Your property is your property and it belongs to you. It doesn't matter how you get it, unless you have stolen it, then it belongs to the original owner. So the thief would indeed be doing wrong.