Discrimination of Marriage Laws
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I would like to believe that Mohammad was only a human subject to same laws as any other human. However he had a responsibility on his shouldiers to convey the message to the world. This responsibility should not put him above basic laws.
I see in verse 3350 that he is given extra privileges to either marry more than 4 wives or takes ladies into a marriage without providing dowry. I have read two different interpretations of 3350. Whatever the case may be one thing remains true though, laws are different for him than for regular muslims.
Then in 3353 I read that muslims are not allowed to marry x-wives of Mohammad.
Here are my questions to the people who believe that Quran is a book of God
- Do you think that it is fair for God to relax marriage laws for his beloved prophet?
- If not then do you still believe that this is a book of God.
- If yes, then is their any other possible interpretations of 3350 and 3353.
My background I have no religion as such. I believe that this universe is created by someone (God). I came accross Quranic claim that it is a book from God. Here I am studying this book to make sense if that is really the case. Summary of my study http//docs.google.com/Doc?id=ajg9t6kcgtgs_7cb5w84
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- Do you think that it is fair for God to relax marriage laws for his beloved prophet?
- If not then do you still believe that this is a book of God.
- If yes, then is their any other possible interpretations of 3350 and 3353.
Yes, God knows what the prophet is going to do, he didn't just randomly choose the person. It would have to be someone who is trustworthy, wouldn't abuse his powers etc....
At his time, Muhammad was a father figure to the believers his wives are forbidden for the believers because
a) wives know private things about Muhammad
b) its like you marrying your mother's ex-wife (Quran forbids this)
Just because he had special priveleges doesn't mean that he's not human or he didn't make mistakes. He's called out a couple of times in the quran for making mistakes (801-10, 661) Also see 6938-47
Mohammad is no different than other messengers (3144)
He will die just like we will (3930) -
Dear Explorer,
I liked the way you introduced yourself. You are a gentleman. My advice is not to become a Muslim or what some people call "submitter", if not already a muslim, untill and unless you conclude that the Book Quran is the word of the Creator since you and me both know we are not our own creators; nor my father was my creator, he never went to my mother in the belief of Mazhar. I appreciate your study and frank expression of opinion on the link. But follow the same principal with Quran as you follow with regard to any book on earth. You and me cannot claim that we can understand each and every word of the book. I cannot claim that I understand every word of Shakespear or Kant. Should I reject their books? The basic requirement and decent attitude is to respect any book, read it, evaluate it and then grade it. There are thousands of commands given by ordinary rulers which were apparently discriminatory; but from Ruler's point of view that was the best course in the given situation. This sort of objection that why one was allowed to have more wives; then I can object why was I not selected to act as a messenger? There can be endless objections.
About one confusing point, mountains like pegs, I may advise you that just read about mountains in any encyclopedea, your confusion will be over; Quran also said they are moving though it seem to you static. This will also be clear from getting information about the mountains.Birds giving message to the king need not be taken as negative. We know birds were used as couriers.
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Dear Explorer,
About two other "confusing points", where is it written sun overtake moon"? It is rather negated that it can never be the case {3640}. As for milk between digested food and blood, please study what is the digested {rather broken to properly translate the Arabic word}food and how that food is absorbed into the blood, then study the milk and you will find that it is of those characteristics which is better than the stage of digested food and short of blood. If you can read Urde here is the article on this subject http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_1/23/slides/01.html. As for stretching of earth, where is it said like that? Perhaps shirinking has been said. stretching/carpetting was in the beginning. And what you have said positive "Bing Bang", there is no such thing in Quran that could support this ridiculous theory. Bing Bang does not make things start spinning. In positive list you may add after study about winds, clouds and rain, ectopic pregnancy, layers of uterous, Haman of the days of Pharoah, and convert male and female from a drop by adding emitted, from somewhat positive to the list of positive since every medical student today knows that sex of the child is dertermined by the male sperm, female egg has noting to do with it. Let us first shorten the negative list and confusing list and other topics can be discussed since they are also confusing not because of Quran but because of interpretations and opinions of people about that.
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Also, the 4 witness requirement is a problem only when you wish to take a preconcieved notion (i.e. that it is against adultery itself) instead of examining the assigned punishment and noting its effects.
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mazhar,opf, DArgento
thanks for attempting to resolve my confusions. i appreciate that.
i really want to believe that this is a book of God. The blind faith does not work for me. i want to substantiate my beliefs with reasons.
if Quran is real, then God has really put me in a predicament.
on one hand quran is replete with scientific miracles which were unlikely to be known at that time.
on the flip side, quran is giving licence to marry any number of ladies to mohammad who is suppose to be an example to mankind.
after hearing all the comments, i would say i have to take one of the following two positions
A *
quran is replete with scientific knowledge and prophecies which was unlikely to be known by man at that time. therefore this book is from god.
god has given us a system to follow however god has made some exceptions for prophet mohammad.
god has allowed him to marry more than 4 women. he does not have to take equal turns with them.
ants can recognize people by name and so can hoopoe. humans dont know these scientific fact right now. these facts will be uncovered in future.B *
although quran is replete with scientific knowledge and prophecies which was unlikely to be known by man at that time, however quran also granted unfair privileges to our role model.
like marrying more than 4 wives etc. quran also contains scientific contradictions like ants and hoopoe can recongize people by names. on the grounds of * few scientific fallacies and * granting of unfair privileges to just one person, i reject the book.i have been put in a trying situation ...
mazhar, i will reply in a bit about your questions.
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Dear Explorer,
Also please keep in mind that looking at a thing time and again from the same angle does not bring and give anything. Change your location to see the thing from some other side to comprehend that. Have you thought why the Quran incorporated in its statement so many scientific facts which were to become known/seen quite later? And at the same time there was nothing for the reader of that earlier times that could make it difficult for his understanding. Physical facts/data/information is verifiable. But what happended in the past, what Moses said to Pharoah and what he did are things which are never verfiable. What the historians say that is just conjecture, not much to be relied upon. If I evaluate the Book and find its 99 out of 100 physical facts correct, do I have any right to doubt its 100th statement which is not about physical fact?
Sometimes we want that the Book should have been written in the way we like it to be. This is also to avoid and keep ourself away from the Book, since it imposes restrictions on our freedom. -
however quran also granted unfair privileges to our role model.
like marrying more than 4 wives etc.Why unfair privilege?
Having multiple wives and duty to treat them equally which according to Qur?an none can do is more of a burden.
Lastly, not all women are great lookers and consider also a few may have been older widows.
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"god has allowed him to marry more than 4 women" {explorer}
This is not the matter of fact statement. Allah allowed the Messenger to keep in his Nikah all his wives who were in his Nikah at that point of time. Do you know the reason? The reason being the wives of the Messenger were also declared as Mother of those who are believers. Had he been asked to divorce the wives in excess of 4 as was prescribed for other believers; those women could not be married by any believer having been declared as their mother. This would have caused great injustice to those woman. Allah is The Just; protector of human rights of everyone.
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peace
about the devils being hit with rocks muhamed asad explains it as the devils(shatanin) the actually meaning is bad impulses, which he says refers to astrology, the quranic terminology the shaitans are the futile gueses. As you cannt gain knowledge( about future or about peoples personality) from the stars or planets. He says that is how it was talked about back then. If you think about it this way it makes more sense, I hope.
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also just to comment on the ants, I believe the main message of that reference is to think that ants are living things not just little things that if you step on them, oh too bad, adn go on your way. Just to make people think that there is life in them. And ants have one of the most developed communication systems of all animals. I am working on my degree on evolutionary biology at university and people there are much fascinated by ants.
638 although there is no beast that walks on earth and no bird that flies on its two wings which is not creature like yourselves no single thing have We neglected in Our decree. And once again Unto their Sustainer shall they be gathered.
And the bird references could be using the birds as mesengers, like the messengers pigeons of before people killed them all.
About muhammed wifes, how i intrepted it was the exception for him was not to pay a dowry to his wifes since it says in teh quran that his wifes are not in it for teh glammor but for spreading the message of god. as the quran says his wifes are not like other women.
and he cant have unlimited wives cause it says No women shall henceforth be lawful to thee nor art thou to supplant them by other wives, even though their beauty should please thee greatly - beyond those whom thou hast come to possess. And God keeps watch over everything.About marrying his x-wifes the quran says they are as their mothers, and they have a important role in islamic history as leaders after him maybe? like aysha
and the whom your right hands poesess
an article by Oliver RuebenackerSome have claimed that the permission to have intercourse with slaves has been given in the Qur'an itself. I know that this is the classical opinion, but the point is that I am convinced it is wrong. It derives from a misinterpretation of the term "those who your right hand possesses" ("milk al-yamin" or "ma malakat aymanukum", which traditionalists consider to mean slaves. However, they are unable to explain some peculiarities which result from this interpretation.
First of all, the term appears in several places in the Qur'an and every time it appears in the context of marriage or intimacy. It is never used in any of the numerous other places where the Qur'an mentions slaves. Traditionalists can not explain this selectivity.
Second, for some odd reason, traditionalists assume that the term only applies if the master is male and the slave is female, something for which they have no explanation either.
Third, they are unable to explain what is the significance of the right hand. Some argue that the right hand signifies that it is a rightfully owned slave - but fail to explain opposed to what Maybe an unrightfully possessed slave? Should we really believe that God the Praised and Most High is explaining to us the difference between a rightfully owned slave and a wrongly owned slave?
As Muhammad Asad and Mohammad Shahrour point out, the meaning of milk al-yamin ("those your right hand possesses" is different. It becomes clear if we realize that the right hand signifies oath. Oaths are not exchanged between master and slave, but between two free people. If we read the Qur'an with this in mind, we immediately realize that milk al-yamin is an alternative to full marriage A relationship that can be formed instead of full marriage, divorced like full marriage, and that allows intimacy like full marriage.
This sounds very surprising to those who hear it for the first time, but in fact, it is nothing new, but rather something which has always existed in the Muslim world, from the time of the Prophet (peace be with him) until today. There are two types of marriages (nikkah) The full marriage (zawaj) and the lesser marriage (milk al-yamin). Milk al-yamin is simply any nikkah that is not a zawaj, such as, for example, the common law marriage (nikkah urfi) or the temporary marriage (nikkah mutah) or the traveller marriage (nikkah misyar). The fact that there are forms of marriage (nikkah) which are not full marriage (zawaj) is accepted by classical scholars, so we are not inventing anything new here. Rather the only new thing is that we realize that those lesser marriages are mentioned in the Qur'an as milk al-yamin, and that milk al-yamin are therefore not slaves.
What is the purpose of the article? Traditionalists often dismiss discussion of the dark side of traditional Islamic law, calling it knowledge that is not beneficial. To them, it is beneficial to praise the traditions but not beneficial to criticize them. Based on this, they invite the young Muslims to a timeless netherland, in which scepticism is practised only within certain boundaries that deprive it of all meaning. Individual judgement is welcome but only to a certain extend, or only between a limited number of options. Essentially, young minds are put in chains and made dependent on authorities. The constant praise of the traditions combined with the constant refusal to criticize creates an all encompassing bias that makes them blind for the alternatives. This purpose of this article is to advocate alternatives.
About the four witness it doesnt have to be eye witnesses, it could be witness like the torn shirt in the yusuf chapter- 1227
About the spreading earth the continents are moving, like pangea from a long time ago.
http//geology.com/pangea-continental-drift.gifMountians like icebergs show isostacy which I think make them look like pegs.
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Isostasy.svg/493px-Isostasy.svg.pngThe Sun and Moon orbit
3638 And the sun it runs in an orbit of its own that is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing;
and the moon, for which We have determined phases3640 neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night usurp the time of day, since all of them float through space .
it says they are not in the same orbit, and when describing the moon it uses phases as opposed to just say adn orbit implying similarity.
And the quran says teh sun was made before the earth
7927 Are you more difficult to create than the heaven which He has built?
7928 High has He reared its vault and formed it in accordance with what it was meant to be
7929 and He has made dark its night and brought forth its light of day.
7930 And after that, the earth wide has He spread its expanse,Finally, I had the same problem as you did with 3350, but if you look at all the verses about mohameds wives it makes a little more sense, they are not like other women, they do not want material objects and they are mothers to all believers. My my friend once ased me why hasnt there been females prophets in islam, beside that I believe Mary was a prophet, mohameds wifes were kind of like his female counter part a guide to women. Their not marrying after him is saying that not all women need a man, like teh wife of pharoah 6611. Some mistranslate 3333 as staying in your houses, the actually meaning of "qarna" is like holding down, keeping control of the house, because the good wifes dont just sit at home.
If he divorces you, his Lord will substitute other wives in your place who are better than you; submitters, believers, devoted, repentant, worshipful, active in their societies, connected, and progressive. (665)they dont need their bodies to influence men they words are powerful 3332. God wanted to remove all vainity from them, so as they are role models that do not base their achivements on their looks
hope this helped )
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an article by Oliver Ruebenacker
Some have claimed that the permission to have intercourse with slaves has been given in the Qur'an itself. I know that this is the classical opinion, but the point is that I am convinced it is wrong. It derives from a misinterpretation of the term "those who your right hand possesses" ("milk al-yamin" or "ma malakat aymanukum", which traditionalists consider to mean slaves. However, they are unable to explain some peculiarities which result from this interpretation.
First of all, the term appears in several places in the Qur'an and every time it appears in the context of marriage or intimacy. It is never used in any of the numerous other places where the Qur'an mentions slaves. Traditionalists can not explain this selectivity.
Second, for some odd reason, traditionalists assume that the term only applies if the master is male and the slave is female, something for which they have no explanation either.
Third, they are unable to explain what is the significance of the right hand. Some argue that the right hand signifies that it is a rightfully owned slave - but fail to explain opposed to what Maybe an unrightfully possessed slave? Should we really believe that God the Praised and Most High is explaining to us the difference between a rightfully owned slave and a wrongly owned slave?
As Muhammad Asad and Mohammad Shahrour point out, the meaning of milk al-yamin ("those your right hand possesses" is different. It becomes clear if we realize that the right hand signifies oath. Oaths are not exchanged between master and slave, but between two free people. If we read the Qur'an with this in mind, we immediately realize that milk al-yamin is an alternative to full marriage A relationship that can be formed instead of full marriage, divorced like full marriage, and that allows intimacy like full marriage.
This sounds very surprising to those who hear it for the first time, but in fact, it is nothing new, but rather something which has always existed in the Muslim world, from the time of the Prophet (peace be with him) until today. There are two types of marriages (nikkah) The full marriage (zawaj) and the lesser marriage (milk al-yamin). Milk al-yamin is simply any nikkah that is not a zawaj, such as, for example, the common law marriage (nikkah urfi) or the temporary marriage (nikkah mutah) or the traveller marriage (nikkah misyar). The fact that there are forms of marriage (nikkah) which are not full marriage (zawaj) is accepted by classical scholars, so we are not inventing anything new here. Rather the only new thing is that we realize that those lesser marriages are mentioned in the Qur'an as milk al-yamin, and that milk al-yamin are therefore not slaves.
This sounds interesting, i have been thinking on the same lines for a while.
If we see the verses regarding relationship, it is surprising that in a number of them , the word Nikah is not used, but paying ujoors in fair relationships is stressed , signifying that there are other kind of legalised sexual relationships, off which Nikah is one kind. This was the primary reason for me to start the Mutta thread down below, but I got distracted and bogged down in other issues, and hence is still pending.
siki