DIVINE ISLAM
-
Peace to all,
I really like this article, I think it explains exactly the problem with todays Islam, it has deviated from the original conception of Divine Islam and has become distorted with dogma and false traditions that have supplanted the original Divine Islam. Maybe we should call ourselves Divine Islam and Muslims instead of Quranists and the other terms some use.
Enjoy and comment;
"We firmly believe in the truism that all faiths are the paths leading towards the Ultimate Reality, just as the spokes of the wheel converge to its axis. When the people are too immersed in the dogmas and rituals of their chosen religion, it appears to them to be the only one worth following and they defend their own particular faith. However, when they have acquired enough wisdom, charity and discernment, they too are bound to perceive that the road to Heaven is nobody's monopoly and that the Divine laws apply equally to all. It is the dogmas, ritual and the mode of worship that divide the faiths and not the basic essence of their beliefs.
The foundation of all the celestial religions is one; that oneness is Truth and Truth is oneness that does not admit of plurality. This foundation is not multiple for it is Reality itself. Truth is one, and it is the same for all those who, by whatever way, have attained to its understanding. The Religion of God therefore is one.
History is testimony to the great impulses brought to humanity by the Great Educators - the Prophets. Jesus revealed the spirit behind the forms of the laws of Moses. Muhammad, like all the Prophets, upheld the same one foundation. We can see the same purpose behind all the Prophets of God. They were the sources of spiritual empowerment, elevation and order to the communities they were sent.
The various Scriptures or Holy Books contain the primary Divine Revelations that of necessity are adapted in their style and expression to a given people at a given historical period, since "water takes on the colour of its container,"
Christianity and Islam represent the heritage of the Primordial Tradition according to different and specific historical development. The European Muslim writer Michel Valsan points out
"The Islamic doctrine is formal on the point that all the Divine Messengers have brought essentially the same message and that all the traditions are in essence one...As regards the Islamic form of the tradition this is in any case originally and essentially based on the doctrine of Supreme Identity..." (L'Islam et la Fonction de Rene Guenon, Paris, 1984)
Islam
Islam, as the last of the revealed religions in the Abrahamic stream has an intimate relationship with the other two and axiomatically expresses the Divine Conception of Religion. A religion based principally on knowledge compared to its predecessor Christianity based on love. Here is a vital example of unfolding revelation. Out of the Abrahamic 'tree', the Torah emphasised the Divine Law, preparing the way for the Gospels that emphasised the element of Divine Love. Islam, while acknowledging the two former revelations emphasised Divine Knowledge. Hence Abdul Latif of Sind proclaimed "Love and Intellect are the two wings of the bird."
The foundation or core of the timeless One Religion is called in Islam the din al fitrah and Man is defined in terms of it. Every human being is endowed with this core at birth. This is the 'natural state' all humans are created in. The built-in sensus numinis by which the creature recognizes its holy, transcendent Creator. That is to say, every person is born with this 'sensus numinis' by which he innately and 'naturally' comes to recognition of the existence and unity of the Absolute. Rene Guenon offers us an esoteric appreciation of this concept
"the proper meaning of the word Islam is 'submission to the Divine Will'; hence it is said, in certain esoteric teachings, that every being is Muslim, in the sense that there is clearly none who can elude that Will, and accordingly each necessarily occupies the place allotted to him in the Universe as a whole." (Symbolism of the Cross)
Here is 'Divine Islam', the core of Islamic doctrine, above time and place, purged of all elaboration and prescriptions of history. Constituting the Religion of God in the highest sense of the term.
The one Religion of God, the primordial 'Divine Islam' means surrender and submission to the Divine Will. Being above history it predates the Prophet Muhammad. All Knowers of God being 'Muslims' - those who surrender - to the Almighty. Some having surrendered unto God through the Gospels, others through the Quran and some through other forms of Divine Wisdom.
Islamic doctrine teaches that the Quran is the last expression of the Revelation, Muhammad the last of thousands of Prophets, peace be upon them. The Sufi poet Mahmud Shabestari thus declared "If the Muslim only knew what Islam really means, he would become an idol-worshipper."
The institutionalized Islam that we see in the world is only a temporal manifestation of the 'Divine Islam', conceived in the beginning "It is the Religion (millah) of your father Abraham; it is he who called you Muslims aforetime." (Quran 227
"Therefore set your face in devotion to the true faith, the upright nature with which Allah has endowed man. Allah's creation cannot be changed. This is surely the true Religion, although most men do not know it." (Quran 3030)
'Divine Islam' is synonymous with the Religion of primordiality. Religion originally is one as God is One, and if the source of religion is God, and God is One, then there can only be one Primordial Religion.
"For each of you we appointed a Divine Law and a way of life. Had God so willed, He could have made you one people; but so that He might try you by that which He hath bestowed upon you (He willed otherwise); so compete in doing good. Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you concerning that wherein ye differ." (Quran 54
Charles Le Gai Eaton, the deputy director of the Islamic Centre in London, writes in Islamic Spirituality
"Islam...claims by implication a particularly direct relationship to this 'perennial philosophy', since it defines itself as the final revelation of a timeless message of which mankind has been 'reminded' again and again by countless 'messengers of God'. The Quran acknowledges without ambiguity that the laws and practices of the different crystallizations of the din al-fitrah have differed according to time and place, but the truth of the Divine Unity and the decisive principles that are derived from this do not change, have not changed, and can never change. The doctrine of Unity is unique, so it is said. All else is illusion."
The Quran states that all the Prophets were in reality Muslims, and that each one of them had enjoined the people to submit themselves to God "They say 'Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (to salvation).' Say thou 'Nay (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God."
This Divine Conception of Islam, revealed in the Holy Quran, and lived by the early generations of Muslims was the dynamic that spread the light of Islam throughout the world.
"Say O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you That we worship none but God; That we associate no partners with Him; That we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and partners other than God" (Quran 364)
Holding to this Divine Conception the Muslims came as liberators to a Christian world wallowing in idolatry, narrowness and priestcraft. The foremost historian of Eastern Christendom, Father Nicolas Zernov wrote that for many of the early Christians, the Muslims "came as supporters and liberators". In his definitive work on the origin and growth of the Eastern Orthodox Church we read
"Many Byzantine strongholds gladly opened their gates to the armies of the Prophet, welcoming them as their co-religionists...It is usually insufficiently realized how close Islam was in its early years to the Oriental version of Christianity. The Koran taught not only the virgin birth and Christ's freedom from sin, but also regarded Him as the God appointed Judge of mankind at the Last Judgment." (Eastern Christendom)
A study of the relations between the early Christians and Muslims shows that they regarded each other as co-religionists who held to the same core, the same one foundation of truth. Benjamin Walker comments
"It is noteworthy that medieval Christian scholastics did not look upon Muslims as members of an alien or non-Christian faith, but rather as those who had broken away from a fundamentally Christian doctrine. They were regarded as heretics and seceders, and not as heathens. In denying the divinity of Christ, which Muslims did with consistent emphasis, they were not far from the position of many Christian theologians who were condemned on that score by the Church as schismatics." (Gnosticism, Its History and Influence, 1983)
"The Muslims," wrote Christian author Sir William Jones, "are already a sort of heterodox Christians they are Christians, if Locke reasons justly, because they firmly believe the immaculate conception, divine character, and miracles of the Messiah."
Such a view was shared by the early Christian church whose theologians, such as St John of Damascus, looked upon the Muslims as a Christian sect.
When the crescent triumphed over the cross in southern Europe it was a harbinger of a civilisation that had no equal in its day. In Studies in a Mosque, Stanley Lane-Poole writes
"For nearly eight centuries under her Muslim rulers Spain set to all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state. Art, literature and science prospered as they then prospered nowhere else in Europe. Students flocked from France and Germany and England to drink from the fountains of learning which flowed only in the cities of the Moors. The surgeons and doctors of Andalusia were in the vanguard of science; women were encouraged to devote themselves to serious study, and a lady doctor was not unknown among the people of Cordova. Mathematics, astronomy and botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence, were to be mastered in Spain and in Spain alone."
There are numerous historical examples of chivalric honour and respect accorded to the European Christians by the Arab Muslims reflecting an appreciation of the essential unity between the 'people of the Book'. The Caliph Omar, after the capture of Jerusalem, renounced praying in the basilica that the patriarch had placed at his disposal, in order to avoid its being claimed later by the Muslims. In the midst of battle the great Muslim leader Saladin presented a richly caparisoned horse to his enemy the Christian King Richard-the-Lion-Hearted, whose horse had just been killed. No doubt the Muslims recalled the words of the Quran
"We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the descendants (of Jacob) and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and in what the other Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are those who submit to Allah." (Quran, Chapter 2, Verses 135-136)
The historian Syed Amir Ali details the period when the Divine Conception of Islam was practiced"Ever since the establishment of the Islamic power, the Christians had enjoyed the utmost toleration; they were protected in the practice of their religion and in the enjoyment of their civil rights and privileges. They were allowed to move freely about the empire, to hold communication with princes of their own creed in foreign countries, and to acquire lands and property under the same conditions as the Moslems. Public offices (excepting under some tyrannical governors) were open to them equally with the Moslems. Christian convents and churches existed everywhere, and Christian pilgrims from the most distant parts were permitted to enter Palestine without hindrance. In fact, pilgrimage to the Holy Land had been stimulated, rather than suppressed, by the conquest of the Arabs, and the Saracens contented themselves with maintaining order among the rival sects of Christianity, who would have torn each other to pieces in the very sepulchre they professed to worship. In Jerusalem, which was regarded as holy by the followers of both religions, a special quarter was set apart for the Patriarch and his clergy, which was inviolable on the part of the Moslems. When Palestine and Syria passed into the hands of the Fatimids in the year 969 A.C., the change of supremacy was to the advantage of the Christians. But no amount of toleration would conciliate the fanatics, who looked upon the presence of the Moslem in Jerusalem as an abomination." (A Short History of the Saracens) While the Divine Conception was upheld, Muslims and Christians lived side by side in peace, while still maintaining their distinctive Traditional exoteric forms and practices. Many of the early Muslim writers studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments. The historian Tabari in particular quoted the Bible frequently. St John of Damascus held a high position at the court of the Caliph. He was not required to 'convert' to Islam, any more than were St Francis of Assisi in Tunisia, St Louis in Egypt or St Gregory Palamas of Turkey. While a prisoner of the Ottomans for a year, St Gregory had friendly discussions with the Emir's son, but was not 'converted', nor did the Turkish prince become a Christian. The Sufi Ibrahim ibn Adham had for a time as his spiritual master a Christian hermit, without either being converted to the other's religion. Only later centuries widened the gap between the two faiths and their Sacred Books. Crusades and wars, inquisitions and persecutions, alienat! ed those who should have been 'nearest in love' to one another.
"Thou wilt surely find the nearest of them in love to the believers are those who say 'We are Christians'; that, because some of them are priests and monks , and they wax not proud." (Quran 585)
Rejected Knowledge
There has always persisted an 'underground' of 'rejected knowledge' within Western Christian culture. Forming a suppressed Opposition to the Establishment forces, this minority acted both to preserve - consciously or unconsciously - some of the highest elements of Traditional Wisdom and critique the growing materialism of the age. Within this 'underground' can be found the Rosicrucians of the 18th century who claimed sources in Arabia for their Ancient Wisdom teachings. Much could be written of the connections between the Templars and Ismaili Muslims during the Crusades. Frederick II, Goethe, and Nietzsche, all held Islam in high esteem.
Napoleon, while in Egypt, "held long discussions with the Ulema of Cairo on Moslem theology, holding out to them the possibility of the whole French Army being converted to Islam." (Napoleon and the Awakening of Europe) The French writer Gourgaud noted in his Memories, "the Emporer reads the Koran in silence. He raises his head and says, as in a dream Muhammad's religion is the most beautiful."
The spiritual poverty, ignorance and vain dogmatism - with the resulting hypocrisy, mediocrity and confusion - manifesting in the contemporary world stem from rejection of the Traditional Wisdom brought by all the Prophets of God. The Tradition that, as an unfolding perennial revelation of the Divine Will, can be compared to a stream with its origins in a primordial and eternal pure spring of Truth.
Working from the universal perspective of the Divine Conception, the darkness of ignorance, dogmatism, legalism and fanaticism vanishes before the Sun of Truth. This Divine Conception is an understanding that points us to the one universal Religion of the Prophets and gives us access to progressively higher levels of Knowledge and an ever-widening vision of reality. Then we appreciate the words of the Muslim teacher Al Ghazzali - "The higher one ascends a mountain, the farther one sees."
Kurt
-
Peace to all,
Maybe we should call ourselves Divine Islam and Muslims instead of Quranists and the other terms some use.
Peace Kurt,
To respond on your above remark, I think it's a good one. The label 'Quranist' is very limited, since it only focuses on the Quran/Final Testament, although I think it's the only book that has kept it's authenticity/original (classical) words. I think the words 'God alone' for me are the right words to use to explain my belief/faith, since that refers to accepting all of God's revelations, not based on just one particular Scripture, but on all Scriptures that need full examination of our part to fully understand the system of God, and let us also not forget the examination of the historical background of the cultures/societies of the time of the revelations.
Thanks for sharing that article with us.
peace
Latifah
-
Salam,
Maybe we should call ourselves Divine Islam and Muslims instead of Quranists and the other terms some use.
Although I do understand the reason why so many want to distance themselves from what the deem to be the wrong path of Islam... I have a harder time understanding the need to give this (whatever it is you'd like to call it, movement etc...) a name.
Quran alone and God alone are contradicting terms since there is no such thing as following God "alone" or following Quran "alone" when a human being constantly uses a host sources outside of God and Quran to in order to awaken their factulities of reason, logic.. etc.. Take look at the book thread the movie thread.. take a look at all the sources and ideas on this site and we can see that these terms of Quran "alone" and God "alone" are anything but...
These outside sources can a means of inspiration... of ideas.. of wisdom etc... I strongly doubt that anyone here on this site would argue against using the wisdom of other humans outside of the Quran... With this being said, I'm sure there is very little argument about any recognizable wisdom that is brought about by any form of hadith... hadith being... stories.. sayings... etc.. etc. etc... of anyone or anybody for that matter... take a look at the so called wisdom quote thread for what I'm talking about here.
So the questions that come into play is why is there such an aversion with the folks here to the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad?
This is clear when I repeatedly read about the so called traditionalists who "worship" the Prophet Muhammad, who put the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad above the Quran etc. etc. etc. etc. yet, even though these things may be true... isn't it still good to derive wisdom from certain hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad as you derive wisdom from some author of a book, or a actor from a movie??
So this leads me to think that the aversion has actually become towards the Prophet himself... there are many hadith at supply much wisdom and thoughts etc.. yet we do not see these words of wisdom in the "wisdom thread" but rather see many words of "movie stars" or book authors etc instead. Not that I have an aversion to book authors, but it shows me that this has become a disease within this so called Quran alone, God alone movement that automaticly discounts anything that has to do with so called traditional Islam even though it may contain wisdom, therefore this type of behaviour becomes harmful to those who cheat themselves by denying such wisdom and mostly having an aversion to the Prophet who the Quran itself was given to..
If those who deny the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad would take their "ex" sunni, "ex" shia" or "ex" traditional blinders off and respect the Prophet Muhammad and his sayings as words of wisdom (much like the words of various authors, politicians, movie stars etc that they subscribe to), you will find an essence of True Islam in which the so called traditionalists talk about yet, they too have gone too far with.
There is a saying amongst smokers that there is nothing worst than an "ex"smoker when it comes to smoking. This alot of what seems to be going on here too just with Islam.
There is a balance between what so called "traditionalists" and "non-traditionalists" are saying. Perhaps both extremes are needed to illustrate that these extremes are both false for those of understanding. Yet, there is One God and therefore One Religion! Why not reclaim it.. instead of rename it?
peace
-
Peace to all,,
I agree completely Mehdi, actually you are saying exactly what ive been saying. I never believed we should completely diregard all hadeeth , and I do not disrespect Prophet Mohammad. What I believe is that we should use the hadeeth as historical anecdotes and stories to help us understand things as needed, some may be good and helpful, others may be ridiculous, but maybe someone takes something from the silly stories while others dont, the point is we should use any and all knowledge to help us and guide us to truth and good deeds, even if it comes from a movie star as you say. I dont believe we need to make hadeeth mandatory religious dogma though, thats just wrong,,. We can read stories of all the other prophets also and use them to help guide us, but we shouldnt make thes narrations a requirment of being a Muslim.. As for Divine Islam, im not trying to rename what we belief as you say, you say we should reclaim it not rename it, and I agree, but by calling it what it truely is and originally was is in fact to reclaim it. The article shows how the early years were lived according to the Quran and Gods guidance and they were very successful, it was only after man made traditions started to drowned out the truth that problems arose and they began to decline. There is one God, and it is divine, and Divine Islam is the best expression of this one belief in one God, free and unfettered by silly traditions that are not divine. Hadeeth should be recommended not required.
Kurt
-
"Many Byzantine strongholds gladly opened their gates to the armies of the Prophet, welcoming them as their co-religionists...It is usually insufficiently realized how close Islam was in its early years to the Oriental version of Christianity. The Koran taught not only the virgin birth and Christ's freedom from sin, but also regarded Him as the God appointed Judge of mankind at the Last Judgment." (Eastern Christendom)
The Koran taught not only the virgin birth and Christ's freedom from sin, but also regarded Him as the God appointed Judge of mankind at the Last Judgment." (Eastern Christendom)
What does it means? Seriously, the dude was thinking that jesus was regarded as God in the Quran?? What is this ?
-
peace to all
Yosemite, I dont know, i dont think the Quran says anything about Jesus beig appointed Gods judge does it, if it does can someone show us the verse. Anyways, thats not really the point of the article, what do you think of the rest of it.
Kurt
-
peace
I really dont have anything to say about the article.
I do have to say that I agree with Mehdi...sort of.We can't call ourselves anything because there is no "we." We're all individuals with our own individual paths and we're all on our own level. There aren't two people on this forum that agree with each other on most issues.
Anyway, so I do agree with Mehdi that quran alone makes no sense because quran isn't our only source of knowledge and wisdom. I hope he wasn't saying that the wisdom quotes thread contains no wisdom because there certainly are some wise words posted there.
About the hadith, well, I rarely find any wisdom in them. Sometimes I do, and I keep that lesson in mind. But the thing is that even though the lesson might hold true, the part that says "the prophet says..." is, I believe, false.
The fact is that people don't follow books or sayings, they try to follow the truth, even though many people here try their best to deny that fact.
The hadith are hated here simply because most of them are complete crap.
And I don't trust them as historical sources at all.If there is one truth, as the article says, then we must search for that truth and follow it. We should be looking at things in terms of truth and falsehood, not in terms of books and sayings.
-
Last week I go to hospital. American lady ask me to fill out form. I try my best to do and give to lady. She tell me is not complete.
Lady Ma?am, you left blank what religion you are.
Me Why important? Is personal question.
Lady It?s standard procedure, ma?am but I can leave it blank if you like.
Me No, is okay. I believe in God alone.
Lady So you are Deist?
Me No. I believe in Quran alone.
Lady So you are Muslim?
Me Not in traditional sense. I believe in teaching of Quran alone.
Lady Sorry, I?m not following. Koran is the book Muslims follow, right? What else is there? Is this some kind of new sect of Islam or something?
Me Is not. Is original/true Islam as taught in Prophet Mohammad?s time. Today?s Islam is distorted version of original teachings due to things added over years. See, Islam is made up of holy book Quran which comes word for word from God. But traditional Muslims believe God show us how he like us to live life on earth with Quran AND something called the Sunnah. They believe both the Qur'an and Sunnah were given to us, humanity, by last messenger of God, Muhammad.
Lady Um, okay, I didn?t know this. I thought there was just one Islam and it was the same for everyone.
Me No, there are different sects, and most differences are based on something known as Hadith. The Sunnah is based on Hadith, which are oral traditions relating to words and deeds of Muhammad; basically, how he live his life. They were collected close to 300 years after prophet?s death. Long time. Hadith collections are considered important tools for determining Sunnah, or Muslim way of life. Mohammad?s life is considered example for all people who accept Islam to follow. Whatever he did, said, or approve of, traditional Muslims consider source of Islam just as much as Qur'an.
Islamic scholars write down traditions they thought trustworthy, or maybe some scholars even make up their own. Who knows. They are written long time after prophet die and very very long time ago. We not know for sure which are true or false, but ones that clearly contradict Quran are thought to be false and are not used. But many are used over years with scholars saying they are true even when they contradict teaching of Quran, especially Hadith concerning women. Those of us who believe in Quran only rely on Quran alone for guidance, not Quran and Hadith.
Lady Oy vey, I should never have asked?So then, what do you call this belief? Is it not still Islam?
Me There are many things associated with today?s Islam that I not approve of or accept as coming from God. Today?s Islam is distorted version of original Islam as taught by the last messenger of God. I not sure it would be correct to call this Islam. I also do not like labels. Labels divide. Some use names like Divine Islam, God Alone, Quran Alone, but I prefer calling it the religion of God for now.
Lady So what should I write?
Me God?s religion.
Lady But that is my religion, and I?m Jewish. I thought you people believe in Allah.
Me Ugh! You not know how many times I hear this. Is same God, lady, just different labels. I hate labels...
-
So the questions that come into play is why is there such an aversion with the folks here to the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad?
This is clear when I repeatedly read about the so called traditionalists who "worship" the Prophet Muhammad, who put the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad above the Quran etc. etc. etc. etc. yet, even though these things may be true... isn't it still good to derive wisdom from certain hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad as you derive wisdom from some author of a book, or a actor from a movie??
Of course this would be good, but how we are to know what is true and what is not? They write Hadith hundred of years after Prophet?s death. Scholars write down ones they think to be trustworthy. Maybe some scholars make up on own or add or take things out. We not know this. We not know if Prophet really ever say or do those things the scholars write down. So how can you say for sure is Hadith of the Prophet?
There is wisdom in some Hadith, this is true. But again, is not certain if made up or if Prophet say or do that. That is only concern. Hadith should be read as any list of quotes, book or whatever for enlightenment, inspiration or entertainment. They should not be incorporated into Islam. They should not be referred to to determine Muslim way of life.
-
If those who deny the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad would take their "ex" sunni, "ex" shia" or "ex" traditional blinders off and respect the Prophet Muhammad and his sayings as words of wisdom (much like the words of various authors, politicians, movie stars etc that they subscribe to), you will find an essence of True Islam in which the so called traditionalists talk about yet, they too have gone too far with.
Again, how do you know for sure what is presented as the Prophet?s sayings are actually that? Perhaps they are not. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. You don?t know for sure. Therefore, you have to discard but if there is wisdom in a Hadith, maybe you will be wiser person after reading it, but Hadith should not be referred to as Prophet?s sayings.
Right now, going by Hadith, I
-
Cannot eat with left hand. Turkish friend always tell me is very very bad every time she see me eat with left hand. Why would God make me left-handed if bad? Why I can illustrate beautiful pictures with this hand if God not like? I cannot with right hand. With right hand, spoon end up in nose, not mouth. Is not work like left hand.
-
Cannot draw or paint, especially human faces. Is something I do very well. Again, why God give me talent if not to use?
-
Cannot listen to music, except religious song/music. World would be very boring place without singers and musicians.
-
Cannot shake hand with man. How is my granddora suppose to close business deal in America if not with handshake? Where I from originally and where I live now, is what people do all times. Is expected.
-
Am doom to go to hell because Prophet see hell and most in hell are woman. Really? I think men who write and spread this will be first in hell. Is something told by imam to men back in homeland so men believe it and many not treat women too good. Hadith pertaining to woman are controlling, insulting and discriminate against women.
These are just few. Here are more. People believe many ? if not all ? these things to be true even though they are not found in Quran.
http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/37/list_of_interpolations.htm
-
-
Peace to all,,
I agree completely Mehdi, actually you are saying exactly what ive been saying. I never believed we should completely diregard all hadeeth , and I do not disrespect Prophet Mohammad. What I believe is that we should use the hadeeth as historical anecdotes and stories to help us understand things as needed, some may be good and helpful, others may be ridiculous, but maybe someone takes something from the silly stories while others dont, the point is we should use any and all knowledge to help us and guide us to truth and good deeds, even if it comes from a movie star as you say. I dont believe we need to make hadeeth mandatory religious dogma though, thats just wrong,,. We can read stories of all the other prophets also and use them to help guide us, but we shouldnt make thes narrations a requirment of being a Muslim.. As for Divine Islam, im not trying to rename what we belief as you say, you say we should reclaim it not rename it, and I agree, but by calling it what it truely is and originally was is in fact to reclaim it. The article shows how the early years were lived according to the Quran and Gods guidance and they were very successful, it was only after man made traditions started to drowned out the truth that problems arose and they began to decline. There is one God, and it is divine, and Divine Islam is the best expression of this one belief in one God, free and unfettered by silly traditions that are not divine. Hadeeth should be recommended not required.
Kurt
Many people will still take ?recommended? as requirement. It needs to be make clear that Hadith may or maybe not be true, and that those that do not contradict Quran are recommended for enlightenment, inspiration, to help guide us, etc., but should not be referred to as ?Prophet?s sayings? or what Prophet did as many imams and scholars claim. As you say, Hadith should not be made mandatory religious dogma.
In past, when clearing up misconceptions about Islam, I also use terms True Islam and Original Islam since it is assume that Islam is divine inspiration and saying Divine Islam does not do much to differentiate it from just Islam. But because is one God, until I think of something better, for now I say Religion of God, or just God?s religion. It not divide people since my Christian and Jewish friends believe in God too. Everybody then is one big happy family...
Okay, maybe not yet but is good start.
P.S. Saying ?Allah? when speaking English confuses people to think is another God we believe in. They say things like Muslims believe in moon god called Allah. Most people not know too much about religion, even their own.
peace
-
Salam,
As for Divine Islam, im not trying to rename what we belief as you say, you say we should reclaim it not rename it, and I agree, but by calling it what it truely is and originally was is in fact to reclaim it.
Kurt, thank you. I understand now well what you meant!
I hope he wasn't saying that the wisdom quotes thread contains no wisdom because there certainly are some wise words posted there.
You are right, I wasn't saying that.
Lil Ol Lady, can you please share with me what you know about the history of the Prophet Muhammad?
Thank you...peace
-
Lil Ol Lady, can you please share with me what you know about the history of the Prophet Muhammad?
Thank you...peace
peace Mehdi.
I read many books, articles, hadith that discuss history of Prophet.
Everybody agree words in Quran came out of mouth of Prophet as he receive words from God
Everybody agree he dictate Quran (since he could not write)
Everybody agree words are written verbatim, EXACTLY as he get from God
Everybody agree Quran was read back to him with others present (to ensure accuracy of words)
Everybody agree Prophet?s name was Mohammad, when he live, where he live, who he marry, who his relatives were.
Everybody agree he was good, righteous person and considered example for all who accept Islam to follow.
Much of this information come from Hadith but it is consistent, therefore must be true. EVERYBODY agree. But again, Hadith is written close to 300 years after Mohammad?s death by MEN going by what other men said who claimed to know specifics about what Mohammad said and did, based on stories passed on over generations. All information was passed on by word of mouth and memory. Can you really take as ?fact? words passed on from one person to the next after so many years, especially when so many make no sense and clearly contradict the Quran? (Refer to link I posted above)
Some things in Hadith may in fact be things Prophet said or did, but when most are nonsense, you cannot possibly refer to Hadith as sayings of the Prophet, as you did and as so many do. Some are strong, but most are weak. Therefore, this make Hadith an unreliable source for determining Muslim way of life.
The End.
-
Salam,
Lil Ol Lady,
You say that you read many book etc. that discuss the history of the Prophet. Then you say that "everybody" agrees on certain aspect and that these aspects are "consistent" therefore they are "true". None of which of course answered my question, but that's ok, for now.
Then you continue straight to the hadith, which was never a part of the question to begin with, no problem, for now. It was just a historical point of view that I wondered what you know about. None the less, about the hadith, you continue to say
Much of this information come from Hadith but it is consistent, therefore must be true. EVERYBODY agree. But again, Hadith is written close to 300 years after Mohammad?s death by MEN going by what other men said who claimed to know specifics about what Mohammad said and did, based on stories passed on over generations. All information was passed on by word of mouth and memory. Can you really take as ?fact? words passed on from one person to the next after so many years, especially when so many make no sense and clearly contradict the Quran? (Refer to link I posted above)
So Consistency = Truth to you? hmm
Are you in the mind-set that since "everybody" agrees with something that's what makes it true? Is this what you mean by the word consistent, that since everybody agrees, therefore it is "consistent"?
Also, if you can, please share with me what you know about the history of the Prophet Muhammad?
Thanks! )
-
Peace LOL, all,
I agree with brother Mehdi about consistency not being equivalent to truth. Even if some things are consistent does not necessarily mean it is the truth. For example many narrations could be 100 % consistent but if they contradict the Qur'aan, they cannot be the truth.
I also disagree with many "facts" presented by LOL, hence not "everybody" agrees with those "facts".
Everybody agree he dictate Quran (since he could not write)
According to evidence from the Qur'aan, Prophet Muhammad learned how to write after the revelation of the Qur'aan started. One can search the forum for past discussions about this which prove this from the Qur'aan. For example, see the following discussion
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14166.0
Everybody agree words are written verbatim, EXACTLY as he get from God
This is not true either. There are at least 10 versions of the Qur'aan in existence with minor differences in diacritical marks in some words, and even rare differences of some letters in few words, but the overall message is exactly the same despite those minor differences. The God promised to protect the message, and not the exact words. For details, please see the following article
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/WhichQuran.pdf
There are numerous discussions about this on the forum also and one can use the search feature to find those threads.
Everybody agree Quran was read back to him with others present (to ensure accuracy of words)
This assertion has logical pitfalls. For example, others can conspire and write something different and then read to him something different than what they wrote to deceive him. Assuring the authenticity of what the scribes wrote also requires being literate and knowing how to read and write and has to involve visual inspection of what they wrote.
Prophet Muhammad also learned how to write after the revelation of the Qur'aan started, so he also visually inspected what the scribes wrote to ensure the accuracy of the text. In addition to that, he also wrote the Qur'aan as it was revealed to him.
Everybody agree Prophet?s name was Mohammad, when he live, where he live, who he marry, who his relatives were.
There is archeological evidence that suggests that the traditional date of birth of the Prophet could be off by 20 years, i.e. he was actually born 20 years earlier than what has been claimed, and he also might have died earlier than what is traditionally claimed. Please see the following posts for relevant references
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14366.msg133525#msg133525
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9389.msg37480#msg37480
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.msg49965#msg49965
There is also evidence from the Qur'aan that indicates that he actually lived near the ruins of the town of Lot near the Dead Sea area in the Lakhmid province region, hundreds of miles away from where he is thought to have lived according to the traditional accounts. Please see the following articles
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
Much of this information come from Hadith but it is consistent, therefore must be true. EVERYBODY agree.
Firstly, not everybody agrees.
Secondly, just because some information is consistent does not mean it MUST be true.
Thirdly, I have shown above how Qur'aanic and archeological evidence contradicts some of the supposed "consistent facts", therefore those "consistent facts" CANNOT be true.
-
Salam,
Lil Ol Lady,
You say that you read many book etc. that discuss the history of the Prophet. Then you say that "everybody" agrees on certain aspect and that these aspects are "consistent" therefore they are "true". None of which of course answered my question, but that's ok, for now.
Then you continue straight to the hadith, which was never a part of the question to begin with, no problem, for now. It was just a historical point of view that I wondered what you know about. None the less, about the hadith, you continue to say
So Consistency = Truth to you? hmm
Are you in the mind-set that since "everybody" agrees with something that's what makes it true? Is this what you mean by the word consistent, that since everybody agrees, therefore it is "consistent"?
Also, if you can, please share with me what you know about the history of the Prophet Muhammad?
Thanks! )
Okay, I ?splain some more.
-
I know you not ask about Hadith but I still concerned that you refer to Hadith as sayings of Prophet. Reason I bring up again.
-
No, ?consistency? does not = ?truth? to me. See second post in ?Hello? thread I start when first join. I say ?Is assume that because that is how is always been and because everybody believe it, it must be true. Must it? I not think so.?
Now tell me, if people still not agree on something like when/where Prophet live, if he read/write or not (see Tanveer post above), how you can say for certain Hadith are what Prophet say/do, as you say before? That is what I want to show you. See, you cannot. Even if it seem like everybody agree something to be true (e.g, traditional Muslims belief in truth of many Hadith), it still may not be true.
- About history of Prophet, I read many things but I know that I still not know anything for sure, and neither do you. I do not need to use history to understand Quran. Quran is all I need. So is no point to discuss history.
peace
-
-
peace Tanveer,
I am happy you post here. You are very knowledgeable and logical person. What you write prove my point even further. We not know anything for sure; however, we all can agree that Quran has remained same as when first written. As you say, there are at least 10 versions of Quran in existence with minor differences in diacritical marks and some letters in few words but the overall message is exactly the same despite those minor differences.
Words in Quran are exact words/message revealed to Prophet from God, while Hadith and Sunnah are completely unverifiable and cannot be trusted. The only criterion of truth relevant to guidance to Straight Path is Quran.