To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Peace Hussein,
The problem with your understanding is that you consider what every person on the street does and believes is Sunnism even the uneducated. However, what matters is what a person with education does with what he learned.
So, yes all Sunni scholars agree with my definition and so does the Qur'an.You are just saying that but you know that it is not true. Even you don't agree with your own definition. According to you "sunna" means "repeated and consistent implementation of rules". Of course, there can be bad rules and good rules. So when you say "Sunni scholars" do you mean "scholars that repeatedly and consistently implement rules". So according to you Christian scholars who repeatedly and consistently implement wrong rules are included!!!
Of course, what you are saying is not reality and in your mind and the minds of all Sunnis, the word "sunna" doesn't mean that. It means "the manner of acting of the prophet". So when you say "Sunni scholars", you mean those scholars who supposedly follow the manner of acting of the prophet. You know very well that this is a false later-day invented meaning so you won't admit to the reality. However, your own words betray you and expose that reality.
As for the created and uncreated Qur'an. The Mutazila decided to purge anyone who does not say that the Qur'an is created. Imam Ahmad said "I cannot say what is not in the Qur'an". Basically, he kept to the Qur'an. If you disagree with Imam Ahmad, then bring the Aya of the Qur'an that says that the Qur'an is created.
What are you talking about? How can you doubt that the god created EVERYTHING?!! Is the great reading not part of EVERYTHING??!!!! Do you think that the god in passages such as 6102 neglected to say that he created everything except this book that you call Quran??!!! How much clearer should the god make it to you!!!
You are not only defying the clear signs of the god but you are also defying your god-given common sense. Since the great reading is uncreated it also follows that every word in the great reading is uncreated. So the words of Moses and all the other people who speak and even Iblis's words (he speaks there too) are all uncreated. Since the great reading is in Arabic and it is uncreated and eternal then Arabic must be uncreated and eternal too!!! Of course anyone with a grain of common sense can see the huge logical absurdities that Sunnis have created for themselves with their anti-rationalism.
As for the innovated hadeeths and Sunna, I did not say that. You claim it. Just because something was recorded and written later, does not mean that it was not said earlier.
This is the same exact thing that Talmudic Jews, Christians and all dogmatic people say. This is why Jews believe that by following the Talmud they are following Moses and Christians think that Jesus told them that he is the son of the god (he be most exalted above what they describe). Your logic is exactly the same. As I said earlier, Hadiths are at best unverifiable hearsay and most are proven as outright lies.
actually this is an argument against you. If one refuses to follow something written 200 years later, then how come you expect them to follow you 1400 years later and especially when you deem the linguistic tools unacceptable as long as they disagree with your biased point of view. You did not deconstruct Hadeeth, you actually deconstructed the whole of Islam.
Again, your own words betray your dogmatic innovation. You claim that "Sunnism adds no requirements" and yet you say that by deconstructing the book of Bukhari and the like I have deconstructed so-called "Islam" (you don't even seem to know the meaning of the word).
Yes also, you are supposed to do things the way the prophet did it, especially Salat, Zakat, Sawm and so forth.
Everything you need to know about those concepts is in the great reading. It is not my problem that you are too blind to see it.
Not invent your own Sunna as a replacement, very much as waiting for the full moon of the middle of the summer.
Ironically, even die hard Sunnis admit to the fact that the prophet never abstained according to the Umar calendar. You seem to ignore this.
Last but not least. A person who refuses a whole body of knowledge without proving every singles piece of it as being inauthentic is an act of Innovation. God never asked us in the Qur'an to throw whole bodies of knowledge.
This is the classic logical fallacy of negative proof.
It is the same fallacy used by Bush "prove that there are no WMDs". It shifts the burden of proof because you know that you can't prove that it is authentic. You can add this to all the fallacies of Sunnism. Again, everytime you defend Sunnism, you are inadvertently further confirming the fact that it is entirely based on logical fallacies.
Peace,
Ayman
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Since you guys are "Qur'an aloners" then bring an Aya that says that the Qur'an is created. The Qur'an and all the books of God are words of God. Words are not entities that stand alone. Entities are two kinds
1- stand alone and those are then divided into created and uncreated. The only stand alone uncreated entity is God.
2- Entities that do not stand alone. Those are then called attributes of stand alone entities. If it is an attribute of a created entity then it is created and if it is an attribute of an uncreated entity, then they are uncreated.
3- Jesus is called word of God and created by the Quran. However the Qur'an was mentioned as the word of God but no mention of creation. The reason is that Jesus is stand alone and therefore the designation of word for him means that he was created by the word of God "Kun" and not being the actual word of God.
Words or statements are never stand alone. They are always in the speaker, and then they are attribute, in the listener or carried on created means of communication.
not believing some hadeeths is logical and every Sunni does it. Rejecting all hadeeths and then rejecting all language tools except what Ayman approves is illogical. Also bring the evidence from hadeeth sources that the prophet never did Sawm according to this calendar.
However, yes Ayman I believe in what I write. Please do not project what you do on others.
Take care all
Hussein
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It's important to get all concepts straight.
Rejecting all hadeeth does NOT mean that they are all rejected as void of any wisdom or truth. Indeed there may be wisdom and truth in several hadeeth.
The point is that the collection of all hadeeth is rejected as a divine LAW from God. The "quran alone" people may find valuable things within the body of hadeeth, but they won't take it as divine LAW sent from God. Just like we may derive valuable things from the UN declarations, but we don't take it as divine LAW or divine guidance. This is an important difference which must not be misunderstood!Peace!
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Brother Zulf,
That is your opinion but many here disagree with you. Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth. I have no problem with the view that you hold. I have a question for you
If you read a hadeeth that contained an order and you arrive at a conclusion that the prophet probably said it. Would you obey? or not? and why?
Sunnis do not believe that hadeeth is divine law. Actually, the schools of thought amongst sunnism differ about whether or not to apply or accept many hadeeths. They all agree on the principle of "obey the messenger" as ordered in the Qur'an in more than 44 places.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Brother Zulf,
That is your opinion but many here disagree with you. Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth. I have no problem with the view that you hold. I have a question for you
If you read a hadeeth that contained an order and you arrive at a conclusion that the prophet probably said it. Would you obey? or not? and why?
Sunnis do not believe that hadeeth is divine law. Actually, the schools of thought amongst sunnism differ about whether or not to apply or accept many hadeeths. They all agree on the principle of "obey the messenger" as ordered in the Qur'an in more than 44 places.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
Please do not spread falsehood.
Specifically Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth. <== INCORRECT
Here are some hadeeth I accept (not without question and cross reference and quranic verification, however), which are NOT baseless
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The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said "Whoever says there is no god but Allah enters Paradise."
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The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said "Whoever says there is no god but Allah enters Paradise even if he commits adultery and even if he steals (i.e. even if he commits great sins)."
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Bashshir al-nasa annahu man qala La ilaha illallahu wahdahu la sharika lahu wajabat lahu al-janna. "Announce to the people the tidings that whoever says No god except Allah alone, without partner, Paradise is guaranteed for him."
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Mafatih al-janna shahadatu an La ilaha illallah. "The keys to Paradise are the witnessing that there is no god but Allah."
On the other hand, here are some baseless hadeeth from the same source
- Adhana fi al-nasi anna man shahida an La ilaha illallah wahdahu la sharika lahu mukhlisan dakhala al-janna. "It was proclaimed among the people that whoever witnesses that there is no god except Allah, alone, without partner, enters Paradise."
8a. Man shahida an La ilaha illallah dakhala al-janna. "Whoever witnesses that there is no god but Allah alone enters Paradise."
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Man kana akhir kalamihi La ilaha illallah dakhala al-janna. "Whoever breathes his last with the words La ilaha illallah, enters Paradise." (see the story of the pharoah in the Quran)
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The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said "Whoever witnesses that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger, Allah forbids the Fire from touching him." (Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars - 6311)
To be precise, I agree 100% with Zulf's post
It's important to get all concepts straight.
Rejecting all hadeeth does NOT mean that they are all rejected as void of any wisdom or truth. Indeed there may be wisdom and truth in several hadeeth.
The point is that the collection of all hadeeth is rejected as a divine LAW from God. The "quran alone" people may find valuable things within the body of hadeeth, but they won't take it as divine LAW sent from God. Just like we may derive valuable things from the UN declarations, but we don't take it as divine LAW or divine guidance. This is an important difference which must not be misunderstood!Peace!
003.103 And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.
003.105 YUSUFALI Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs For them is a dreadful penalty,-
Please be mindful of what you say and do not be a tool of your shaitan and plant the seeds of disunity in such a fashion. This is the fifth time thus far. Please also be mindful that 3104 also shows this unity must be in enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, and clearly there is no harm if such a group comes by and breaks the unity in falsehood. Also re-evaluate your perception of others, the benefit of the doubt is a wondrous thing.
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Peace,
Since you guys are "Qur'an aloners" then bring an Aya that says that the Qur'an is created. The Qur'an and all the books of God are words of God. Words are not entities that stand alone. Entities are two kinds
1- stand alone and those are then divided into created and uncreated. The only stand alone uncreated entity is God.
2- Entities that do not stand alone. Those are then called attributes of stand alone entities. If it is an attribute of a created entity then it is created and if it is an attribute of an uncreated entity, then they are uncreated.
3- Jesus is called word of God and created by the Quran. However the Qur'an was mentioned as the word of God but no mention of creation. The reason is that Jesus is stand alone and therefore the designation of word for him means that he was created by the word of God "Kun" and not being the actual word of God.
Words or statements are never stand alone. They are always in the speaker, and then they are attribute, in the listener or carried on created means of communication.
Then shall we worship Qur?an as Christians do their idols?
Which exact text or voice? What about IRON was it uncreated?
5725 We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).
2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
1037 This QUR'AN is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.151 A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
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Is it not funny that you should quote about iron being physically sent down...
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Brother Zulf,
That is your opinion but many here disagree with you. Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth. I have no problem with the view that you hold. I have a question for you
If you read a hadeeth that contained an order and you arrive at a conclusion that the prophet probably said it. Would you obey? or not? and why?
Dear Hussein, peace!
Regarding your question
If I read a hadeeth which contained an order that I concluded that the prophet must have said, then yes, I would have probably followed it. I mean, this is the reason why people follow hadeeth and sunnah... they really do (or want to) (or are raised/culturally programmed to) believe that the prophet said those words. Its simple. The break arises when someone comes to the conclusion that either the prophet didn't say those words, or they just can't tell if he did or didn't. We are afterall required to use our intellect and verify things as per the words of the quran.So, my answer to your question is clear, under the circumstances you detailed,
However,
- As per my reading, pondering, application of logic, I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to be sure whether the prophet said this or that, simply becasue there is no way to verify it. We can only trust in narrations and what various people have said, but we can?t verify it 100%.
- As per my reading, pondering and application of logic, I believe that the prophet (the last one) would not give universal orders, laws, decrees for eveyone to follow, and at the same time saying the they are laws from God that you should follow. I mean to say that the prophet handed over the quran to humanity from God so that we may have some wise guidance. I believe that even if the prophet explained the whole, or parts, of the quran, those words themselves cannot be law. Only the quran, imo, is law, and the interpretation for goodness is part of the human challenge. We are instructed through the quran to follow the best of what we learn, when we have options. Our goodness also shows in our interpretation of the quran to some extent.
To summarize I believe that
a) the prophet didn?t give laws outside the quran
b) explanations and their wordings are not directly laws, since they are not necessarily eternal or 100% determined.
c) we cannot determine if and what someone (e.g. the prophet) said. it is just impossible to sure.That is your opinion but many here disagree with you. Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth.
A) If many disagree with me,.. well, no problem.
B) What does baseless mean? Without wisdom? Unauthorized? I have some difficuilty understanding this word right now.Sunnis do not believe that hadeeth is divine law. Actually, the schools of thought amongst sunnism differ about whether or not to apply or accept many hadeeths. They all agree on the principle of "obey the messenger" as ordered in the Qur'an in more than 44 places.
Actually, I'm glad we are having this conversation... it's a chance for me to learn something. I'd love to get this topic clarified to myself.
Q1. Ok. For simplicity, let's assume we have a collection of hadeeth that are agreed upon that come from the prophet and that are sensible. Are they then law or not? If sunnis don't believe hadeeths are divine law, then what do they believe they are? If quran is divine law, and we should follow it, what level does hadeeth come at, according to sunnis, and how much and how closely should we follow hadeeth?
Q2. So everyone agrees that we should obey the messenger, but there are different interpretations to this. I guess the sunnis interpretation is that we should follow, beside the quran, the things the prophet has (according to sunnis) recommended and ordered through Hadeeth and Sunnah. So it is clear we should obey, but it is not clear what to obey. How important is it to follow hadeeth and sunnah in comparison with the quran? I guess this is the same as the previous question...
Peace!
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B) What does baseless mean? Without wisdom? Unauthorized? I have some difficuilty understanding this word right now.
Just for reference, the word in question, lahwa, basically entails something which is diversionary. It is different from recreation (in the context of Quran at the least), and basically, it is something which serves as a distraction/decoy/occupier. In any case, it does not entail anything positive whatsoever. As for "baseless", that entails something which has zero relevance and can only distract, and has no foundation. So a baseless saying, would thus be conjecture. Both meanings you gave were correct.
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However,
- As per my reading, pondering, application of logic, I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to be sure whether the prophet said this or that, simply becasue there is no way to verify it. We can only trust in narrations and what various people have said, but we can?t verify it 100%.
Dear
I appreciate your thoughts and agree to certain points also.But.......What is your criteria for a thing to be 100% correct and verified?
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Dear
I appreciate your thoughts and agree to certain points also.But.......What is your criteria for a thing to be 100% correct and verified?
Peace,
There might not be such a source ???
Majidah
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Salaam all,
It is not the sent down that is the reason for the Qur'an being not created. Also iron is created because it is in the earth and God said that He created the earth and what is in it. Also, the iron is standing alone. The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God, in the listener or carried on created means of communications. The words themselves are not standing alone and therefore the question of being created does not apply.
No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God. The words of God are attributes because they are not standing alone.
Zulf, perhaps you can question your logic a little.
Q1. Ok. For simplicity, let's assume we have a collection of hadeeth that are agreed upon that come from the prophet and that are sensible. Are they then law or not? If sunnis don't believe hadeeths are divine law, then what do they believe they are? If quran is divine law, and we should follow it, what level does hadeeth come at, according to sunnis, and how much and how closely should we follow hadeeth?
Q2. So everyone agrees that we should obey the messenger, but there are different interpretations to this. I guess the sunnis interpretation is that we should follow, beside the quran, the things the prophet has (according to sunnis) recommended and ordered through Hadeeth and Sunnah. So it is clear we should obey, but it is not clear what to obey. How important is it to follow hadeeth and sunnah in comparison with the quran? I guess this is the same as the previous question...
If all and you as well concluded that the prophet ordered something, then you are bound to obey it. The Qur'an tells you to obey the messenger. God knew that the messenger will order things outside the Qur'an. He would not have said "obey the messenger" if He did not want us to obey those orders. God could have easily said otherwise, unless you guys want to make God order what he did not know about, then it will be much worse of a situation. There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means. All Muslims but you guys understand it the same way. They disagree on if or what he said, but not on the meaning of the order from God nor the fact that it is mandatory.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.
Please remember that for a word to have been uttered for a human, the brain must work in such and such a way to create the appropriate sequence, and sounds. As for God, he is all-powerful.
There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means.
I agree, it is quite obvious that it means "obey he who brought forth the message".
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Peace all,
The absurdity of the "uncreated Quran" only demonstrates how Sunnism and its blind followers are completely irrational. Thus it is not surprising to see Hussein dance around the major logical problems that his dogmatic absurdity has created. He is not the first or the last, no Sunni was ever able to address the following issues
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Since the great reading is uncreated it also follows that every word in the great reading is uncreated. So the words of Moses and all the other people who speak and even Iblis's words (he speaks there too) are all uncreated. Of course this is absurd.
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Since the great reading is in Arabic and it is uncreated and eternal then Arabic must be uncreated and eternal too!!! Of course this is another absurdity.
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Since Jesus is clearly descibed as as "the god's word", then he too is uncreated and eternal. Of course Hussein keeps dancing around this issue and dismisses it because he can't properly address it.
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The god told us that he has sent previous books, however those were corrupted. Hussein is saying that the words of god are like god and thus are uncreated and eternal. Since we know that those words were corrupted, then they are certainly not eternal and certainly god cannot be corrupted so Hussein' analogy is completely false.
Others have brought many other issues and I can bring many more problems with the Sunni anti-rationalist dogma of the "uncreated Quran", but let's see if they can answer the above. I know they can't and they will continue to dance around the issues.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace OPF,
Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.
Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God,
No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God.
Re-read your post; an obvious contradiction using deductive reasoning if A then B.
In addition to what Ayman posted; read...
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi...
1037 And this the Qur'an was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than God,...Inna jaAAalnahu qur-anan AAarabiyyan laAAallakum taAAqiloona
433 We made it an Arabic Qur?an, maybe/perhaps you reason/comprehend.Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona
4458 So We eased it/We made it flexible with your tongue/language, maybe/perhaps they mention/remember. -
Salaam all,
1- The issue is that Sunnis are not going outside of the Qur'an to claim the Qur'an created. You guys however, are using your nonsense logic to make things up, and then imposing it on the Qur'an. Where is the Qur'an alone business?.
2- I responded to the issue of Jesus before.
3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.
4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.
5- The Qur'an is the word of God. When it mentions the words of the creation in it, it is still the word of God narrating what the others said. We do that all the time.
6- As for the corruption of the bible and the Torah, that is God's business. His words were not changed, they were always with him. He allowed the people to make changes because He was planning for another message. It is part of God employing abrogation.
Take care all.
hussein