To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Peace
Who told you that I am a Sunni ?
I am a Quran lover muslim not a "Quranist ".
BTW Who is sunni ?? Would you please explain ?My apoligies if you are not a Sunni and dont follow Hadith. But my statements still stand. If you are just here to incite a war or "convert", please dont do so as its only going in circles. Reason I state this is because I notice how you create new topics to virtually convey the same message, which is basically the nature of trolls.
Peace
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What a genious! a leftist is a left hater, a rightist is a right hater bravo
I hate black people, but I have black friends.
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ayman
Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.
Peace,Ayman
It is not hard to figure out, who has turned the great reading in to an idol
offcourse those who have named themselves as "Quranists" in contradiction to Allah's word who has called them "Muslims".
Same is true with "Sunni's" Shia's etc. -
ayman
It is not hard to figure out, who has turned the great reading in to an idol
offcourse those who have named themselves as "Quranists" in contradiction to Allah's word who has called them "Muslims".
Same is true with "Sunni's" Shia's etc.Please show me someone who calls themself a "Quranist" here. Are you making a generic statement?
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LEOXYZ
What is your criteria for a thing to be 100% correct and verified?
Well, strictly speaking, you can't verify something unless you yourself observe it. It's actually quite tricky, one can be exposed to illusions, like in the case of stage magicians, and then we have selective awareness etc etc... and if you really go far, you won't even be able to be sure that the moon is still there once it disappears behind the horizon, if you have no other means of verifying it.
In the case of hadeeth and sunnah... well, all we can go on is verbal testimony over hundreds of years, and such narrations are considered not to be as accurate as the original statements, no matter what the topic is, hadeth or folklore or witness reports of public events.
As far as I understand the "quran alone movement", which is really nothing new or radical, the rejection of hadeeth as something you must follow and obey stems from the quran itself and what is written therein. The possibility to reject hadeeth and sunnah as something obligatory is given through the quran and how different ayas and their context are understood.
I guess there is no need to bring up all ayas etc here and now, that are used as grounds for rejecting hadeeth as something obligatory.. there are so many threads for that already.
HLATIF
Zulf, perhaps you can question your logic a little.
God knew that the messenger will order things outside the Qur'an.
He would not have said "obey the messenger" if He did not want us to obey those orders.
There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means.
All Muslims but you guys understand it the same way.
They disagree on if or what he said, but not on the meaning of the order from God nor the fact that it is mandatory.
Replies to the quotes above
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Of course I can question my logic a little. Do you see some special flaw that you can point out so that I can scrutinize it? I hope I was not asked to question my logic just because my conclusion differs from your/others.
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Speculation! Yes, God is all-knowing, that's not the problem, the problem is the second part of your claim and what it means. Yes, sure, the prophet ordered things, like matters of his household and whatever business he was into. I can't see any reason to believe that the prophet ordered things outside the quran that would be incorporated into the body of law that is obligatory for us to follow. When he received the quran, and was instructed to deliver it, why would he create another body of law in shape of some sort of a quran-wannabe? The prophet was a human being, he was not an organic machine that only and only recited the quran. Obviously he uttered alot of words in all matters of life, such as food, business, war, weather, infrastructure of his village etc etc etc. Every word he uttered didn't become law just becasue he also received the quran. Why would it??
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"Those orders".... so the problem is what exactly "those orders" were. Some people say it was only the ayats of the quran, while others say it was how the prophet instructed people to urinate, eat and move etc. It all boils down to what we believe that the prophet actually ordered. Unfortunately we don't have any digital tapes from those days, so we will never know. I guess this is just another challenge from God. We can however learn from the quran on this matter. We do believe in the quran as an intact scripture from God.
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Yes and No. There is no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means as far as vocabulary and grammar in concerned. This is however is big fat disagreement on what it PRACTICALLY means, i.e. should we obey his message (the quran) or EVERYTHING which he ALLEDGELY said, ordered and did.
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"All muslims"? Well, I think this is a bit dangerous generalization. Neither "muslims" nor "you guys" are homogeneous and welldefined groups... BUT I understand what you mean. You mean "hadeeth/sunnah obeyers" contra "hadeeth/sunnah independents". It doesn't matter who believes/understands what. Number don't count. The quran does not speak well about following the majority anyway... but this is anyway not the issue. Regardless of what other think, we must try to reach a logic, constructive and sound conclusion, and keep improving it.
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So the sunnis disagree on if and what the prophet said, but not that obeying him is mandatory. Well, the "quran aloners" along with all other "muslims" have exactly the same idea!! We all agree to obey the messenger!! But we diesagree on if and what the prophet said! That is, we disagree on what the message is!! Some say it is only the quran, others say it is more than the quran. That's it. This is the difference.
All the best!
Peace! -
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Sunnis do not believe that hadeeth is divine law.
Hussein
Salaam Hussein
That's not true. If they believe that a hadith can abrogate a verse, then not only do they believe that hadith is divine law, but they believe that it is more divine than the qur'aan. Example "No will to benefit a heir laa wasiyyata liwaarithin" abrogates 2180; stoning/killing adulterers abrogates 242; killing the apostates contradicts the teachings of the qur'aan. The theory of hadith/actions of the prophet abrogating some verses finds its way to the Islamic law/shari3a
Actually, the schools of thought amongst sunnism differ about whether or not to apply or accept many hadeeths.
This is not like differ in accepting hadith. they accept the main ones. When they differ, they have to add up to the hadith, like that of suckling the adult where those opposing it said it was not "suckling", but she had do "milk" herself and serve him the milk in a cup. As stupid as this explanation is, it is plain forgery. The woman is sterile for heaven's sake, and that's why she adopted this boy-turned-man. Even if she was not, and even if she had children, does this mean she will have milk a la carte?
and...One baseless hadith is too many to find its way in the legislation
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Sunnis belive that these things are order from Allah as the concerned hadith are supposedly hidden revelation only told by the prophet
Throwing gays off a cliff in a bag
Stonning those who leave islam and the adulteres
That you can have 4 wives, in the condition you can please then all.
The 5 prayers a day (with the hadith that tells us that the prophet was sent to heaven to lower down the numbers of prayers... That is the only explanation someone gave me so far for the 5 prayers...)
That your wife has to do whatever you ask her, except if it goes against the orders of AllahThat is what a sunni friend (or a salafi oriented, or wahabi) told to me.
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Rajah wrote
So we know from Quran that
- Prayers are prior to Muhammad
- During Praying to God one must try to create Contact with Allah.
- During Pray one should bow and prostrate.
- During pray there should be a focal point and we should face towrads a specific direction.
Now how to bow? how to prostrate and how to stand? are minor details which have been not discussed in Quran and thus people refer to the way of Prophet because he was Chosen by Allah as the carrier of his Final word, and was exalted over others.
But offcourse if Quran does not mention those minor details then we should not be so critical of them, as to where should be our hands, how high should be the Butt, or how low should be the Shalwar during the prayers as they are not ordered by Allah.This is very detailed topic and My english is the obstacle in explaining it in good way, however if you understand Urdu, we can discuss it further deeply.
But still if you disgaree I am open to discussion, but remember just don't provide links of this site.Please tell me of another way of bowing except for the only possible way humans can bow. We are phisically not capable of multiways of bowing. rotfl
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If it's not in the quran, it means that in the eyes of the quran, it DOES NOT MATTER. Which sandal to put on first, what side to sleep on, "how high should be the Butt," does not matter. Why not focus on what's important? So much energy is wasted on trivial things like this.
The primary aspect of "sujud" and "ruku" is mental. Sujud = obeying/submitting and ruku = being humble
Peace
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LEOXYZ
Well, strictly speaking, you can't verify something unless you yourself observe it. It's actually quite tricky, one can be exposed to illusions, like in the case of stage magicians, and then we have selective awareness etc etc... and if you really go far, you won't even be able to be sure that the moon is still there once it disappears behind the horizon, if you have no other means of verifying it.In the case of hadeeth and sunnah... well, all we can go on is verbal testimony over hundreds of years, and such narrations are considered not to be as accurate as the original statements, no matter what the topic is, hadeth or folklore or witness reports of public events.
As far as I understand the "quran alone movement", which is really nothing new or radical, the rejection of hadeeth as something you must follow and obey stems from the quran itself and what is written therein. The possibility to reject hadeeth and sunnah as something obligatory is given through the quran and how different ayas and their context are understood.
I guess there is no need to bring up all ayas etc here and now, that are used as grounds for rejecting hadeeth as something obligatory.. there are so many threads for that already.
Should I take it that according to you do not believe in Quran
-that it is divine book
-that it is preserved book
Am I getting your point of view correctly ??? -
What a genious! a leftist is a left hater, a rightist is a right hater bravo
No madam .
Genius is that one who translates the aya according to weather of the day
If hot then translate it as = wash the feet
If cold then translate it as = rub the feetThis is intellectual somersault.
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Salaam all,
Nun, the "make" in make easy for Yassarna does not have to mean the make of create. You can make your speech easy or difficult. Your speech is still not a creation because the words are always in you and never leave you. They are merely communicated to others through means of communication. The words themselves are in the speaker or the listener or carried in means of communication. They never stand alone.
Samia,
That's not true. If they believe that a hadith can abrogate a verse, then not only do they believe that hadith is divine law, but they believe that it is more divine than the qur'aan. Example "No will to benefit a heir laa wasiyyata liwaarithin" abrogates 2180; stoning/killing adulterers abrogates 242; killing the apostates contradicts the teachings of the qur'aan. The theory of hadith/actions of the prophet abrogating some verses finds its way to the Islamic law/shari3a
The opinion of Imam Shafii who wrote on the importance of hadeeth is that Hadeeth never abrogates the Qur'an and that is the opinion of the bigger scholars of Sunnis Islam, esepcially the four Imams. As for the examples that you brought out. They are examples of particular exceptions to general rules, but no abrogation. The particular exception to general rules apply to all the general statements of the Qur'an, whether there is hadeeth or not. It is part of the language. The hadeeth in those examples, gives you particular exceptions. Other exceptions, if applicable, may work too.
This is not like differ in accepting hadith. they accept the main ones. When they differ, they have to add up to the hadith, like that of suckling the adult where those opposing it said it was not "suckling", but she had do "milk" herself and serve him the milk in a cup. As stupid as this explanation is, it is plain forgery. The woman is sterile for heaven's sake, and that's why she adopted this boy-turned-man. Even if she was not, and even if she had children, does this mean she will have milk a la carte?
and...One baseless hadith is too many to find its way in the legislation
You were not there to say or know what she did. Some scholars that the hadeeth was for her only and cannot be applied to anyone else. A rule made on a hadeeth can be always reversed if the hadeeth is proven wrong or disputed. That has always been the case. As for your last sentence, the risk is there in hadeeth and it is present when you are allowed to use your brain for a ruling or to play mainpulative games with the Qur'anic statements. I can see many examples from posters on this forum, where their "rulings" can cause chaos all over.
Throwing gays off a cliff in a bag
Stonning those who leave islam and the adulteres
That you can have 4 wives, in the condition you can please then all.
The 5 prayers a day (with the hadith that tells us that the prophet was sent to heaven to lower down the numbers of prayers... That is the only explanation someone gave me so far for the 5 prayers...)
That your wife has to do whatever you ask her, except if it goes against the orders of Allah1- There is not a single hadeeth in Bukhari that says that. In fact there is a wide variation in Sunni Scholars opinions there from light punishment to punishment equal to Zina to the one you mentioned. That last opinion is only present in the maliki school, the Shia and some but not all hanbalis school of thought.
2- Again, the Imam Abu Hanifa refused to kill the apostate. This is an example of someone who is Sunni but had a different opinion depending either on his understanding of the main hadeeth or early muslim practice. As for the stoning, the books of hadeeth, as in Bukhari, give us clues to questions whether the practice of stoning was abrogated. This same question is in Shafii's book, Alrisala.
3- four wives is in the Qur'an. Yes you will come back and say that the Aya says if you cannot and you will not be able to treat them equally then one. However, then one would ask Why would God be so convoluted when He wanted us to only marry one? That defeats the literary miracle and clarity of the Qur'an. Mainly, you cannot make that Aya mean only one wife without having significant dissenting opinions from anyone.
No comment on five prayers. there is more evidence on it and that is thousands prayed with him for years. That is the bigger evidence.
As for the wife obeying her husband in God's path. What does Nushuz mean? It is all in 434.
Dion,
Please tell me of another way of bowing except for the only possible way humans can bow. We are phisically not capable of multiways of bowing.
Ask your fellow members of this forum who do not believe in a ritual prayer. Also ask Tanveer who does Sujood with his chin touching the ground.
Zulf,
Well, strictly speaking, you can't verify something unless you yourself observe it.
Have you observed God? This is an example of why you need to question your logic. Will you reject God because you have not observed him? It is true that you should not accept everything that you cannot verify, but neither should you reject it either. Sometimes you have to depend on your heart and mind and on probabilities rather than strictly observing.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Samia,The opinion of Imam Shafii who wrote on the importance of hadeeth is that Hadeeth never abrogates the Qur'an and that is the opinion of the bigger scholars of Sunnis Islam, esepcially the four Imams. As for the examples that you brought out. They are examples of particular exceptions to general rules, but no abrogation.
Salaam Hussein
Whose opinion it is does not matter. This is not the subject here. What matters is that such an opinion found its way to Islamic law.
Please tell me how "for the parents and nearest of kin" is general and contains "no heirs"? Which is a general rule and which is an exceptional rule? When you say it is (a particular exception to a general rule) the two should not be mutually exclusive. These are mutually exclusive. You can't have the parents and nearest of kin on a will and no heirs at the same time. Contradicting laws and only one is applicable means the applied one abrogated the non applied one. You just can't say it is not abrogation and get away with it. This is false by logic. Actually, this is given as an example of abrogation of a verse by hadith. Stoning is given as an example of abrogation by action.
You were not there to say or know what she did.
Nor was the mulla who was justifying the story. If I remember, it was you who wrote this story of justification in one of your posts. I do not remember you commenting that this mulla was not there.
At least I am commenting on the comments of someone who was not there either. I am not commenting on the hadith. I am taking it as it is told and throwing it altogether in the garbage No make up would work.A rule made on a hadeeth can be always reversed if the hadeeth is proven wrong or disputed. That has always been the case.
Please tell me of the last time, or anytime, the Islamic law went under a reform scheme.
As for your last sentence, the risk is there in hadeeth and it is present when you are allowed to use your brain for a ruling or to play mainpulative games with the Qur'anic statements. I can see many examples from posters on this forum, where their "rulings" can cause chaos all over.
Typical. When you have no valid argument, jump to your personal attacks.
You can't equate me or any individual person to the law maker mulla. If I want to write a will the way I want, my opinion is useless and the Islamic law will prevail no matter what. And please give an example of any ruling in this forum that can cause chaos all over. -
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Which is low in your case your age or your IQ?
Both
I know you must beyond 70yr and your IQ = 130.
Your posts about "Khimaar" are pretty obvious.
Proof is HereSamia said
"Sorry, I am not in a position to say which is correct, and I do not see why both cannot be correct. When it is cold, and I have no access to warm water, I would rub my feet; or if I am somewhere where the sink is too high for me, I can't just splash water on the floor, so I rub. Otherwise I wash them (washing is the default in my case). Perhaps God left it like that as a way of making things easy for us".
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Zulf,Have you observed God? This is an example of why you need to question your logic. Will you reject God because you have not observed him? It is true that you should not accept everything that you cannot verify, but neither should you reject it either. Sometimes you have to depend on your heart and mind and on probabilities rather than strictly observing.
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LEOXYZ I believe that the quran is from God and that its message has been preserved.
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HUSSEIN
Can anyone observe God? Can God be proven? How? God gives us signs. God asks us to observe his creation so that we may realize his existence. In that way I have indeed observed God.. and I think that the existence of God is quite logical as far as we humans can comprehend.
Well, my thinking goes like this I have chosen to believe that the quran is from God due to how the quran is written and what is written in it etc. It is from the quran that I derive the basis for my hadeeth-independence.
If we may depend on the heart, mind and probabilities in accepting that written laws are from God, then we may accept hadeeth, BUT in that case we must also accept OTHER sources as a law from God and follow them on the same conditions! Such sources could be anything, e.g. Biblical texts, Vedas, Talmud and many other texts and scriptures that have "Godly" messages. If we not only follow the quran, but also hadeeth, then there are no resons not to follow further other texts!
IMO, the proving of hadeeth as mandatory through the quran has a strong resemblance to the christians proving that jesus is the son of God through the bible.
Ok.
One straight question Do you think that one may enter heaven if one has consciously decided to reject hadeeth as something mandatory to follow??
Another version of the same question Is it necessary to follow hadeeth for salvation??
Yet another version Can one neter heaven if you live only by the quran and don't follow the hadeeth(i.e. not taking it as anything necessary)??Peace!
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btw, God is not part of his creation imo. God is beyond the creation. Proving/verifying God would not be the same as proving/verifying some part of his creation. Or?
Classical Quranist mentality Avoid and circumvent the Question.
So you Admit that Quran is not "Creation" .
Right ?
Would you please tell this to other friends of you??