Hell
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
Surely he was "Fraud".
The proof is just to justify his "methodology" he removed two verses from the Holy Quran.
All of his theory is based on "LIE" and you can imagine what sort of people are following him
"Birds of a feather flock together"
"A man is know by the company he keeps" -
It shows DIRECTLY that religion = lower recidivism. What you said is purely conjecture, yet here we have at least 3 studies directly linking religion to improvement. What you are doing is extrapolating, simply to justify your preconcieved notions, and nothing more. How many prisoners have you surveyed, and analysed that told you that they "felt remorse and wanted to atone"? The fact remains, however, that regardless, people improve with religion. If people who wish to improve tend toward religion, then I am sure you know the meaning of the word "fitrah".
Actually I suspect that it is true that religion does transform the behaviour of many converts or those who have been re-born into the faith. But it neither proves that belief is true, nor does it mean that the remaining prisoners are representative of those who do not believe in God in the general population.
There is no doubt that many find the crutch of religion helps give them boundaries, direction, motivation and comfort. But it also drives many to commit horrendous acts of bigotry and hatred towards the 'other'.
As for "10, 20, 30 years in a prison", we are not talking about that. We are talking about so-called civilised countries where this routinely occurs ("extraordinary rendition", "creative interrogation", "thoughtcrime", etc )). The difference being, that the God who creates us and knows us better than ourselves does it with full justification, contrary to your preconcieved notions, and contrary to the human idea of "torture if you fear".
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
an even better survey would be about how many prisoners practise the religion they claim to follow, especially at the time of their crime. I can predict the results 0.
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
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FM is very diverse. Are you being honest about your background? Not a single educated ("Islamically" soul have I ever seen who did not know about Khalifa. In any case, most on here don't accept the removal of two verses.
As for the 365 count, that comes from Edip Yuksel and others.
I have heard about the Submitters but don't know a great deal about Rashad Khlaifah or the Qur'an only group - except that they reject Hadith and are considered apostates by traditional Muslims. (In my experience most Muslims have heard of the submitters, but - like me - actually know very little about them apart from the fact they reject Hadith)
I never came accross this site before and wasn't aware it was a submitters site.
So is it funded and run by submitters?
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
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Surely he was "Fraud".
The proof is just to justify his "methodology" he removed two verses from the Holy Quran.
All of his theory is based on "LIE" and you can imagine what sort of people are following him
"Birds of a feather flock together"
"A man is know by the company he keeps"What are your beliefs then Leoxyz?
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Why am I here?
I believed the Qur'an was the word of God for 48 years.
Do I doubt myself sometimes? All the time.
Do I think deep down I am wrong about the Qur'an? No.
But I do wonder if there is something I missed. Some angle I overlooked? Some interpretation that I was unaware of?
I have a need to test my limits. Look in every corner and under every rock - probe and poke at every question. I do that here but even more on other internet forums. At the moment the internet is my only outlet as I am now isolated from my old community and friends.
The more I probe and look - the more convinced I am that the Qur'an is false.
Why are you here?
As for the two groups you mention
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
I suspect group 1 have many doubts about Islam also and The Qur'an only group is their last desperate attempt at holding onto their faith. Many come here to seek validation and have their beliefs confirmed so they can feel good about themselves.
As for group 2 - I suspect there are very few of those here.
Most people on this forum have made their mind up already - one way or the other.
Dear cosmicdancer
Please read the following article may be you could find your answer.
http//www.themodernreligion.com/index2.html
May god guide you.
peace
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Actually I suspect that it is true that religion does transform the behaviour of many converts or those who have been re-born into the faith. But it neither proves that belief is true, nor does it mean that the remaining prisoners are representative of those who do not believe in God in the general population.
There is no doubt that many find the crutch of religion helps give them boundaries, direction, motivation and comfort. But it also drives many to commit horrendous acts of bigotry and hatred towards the 'other'.
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
Religion (in this post, synonymous with Quran) does not teach that people should "commit horrendous acts of bigotry towards the other". When you call "religion" a "crutch", are you saying this out of spite of your rejection? How many religious people, and previously atheists and converts to atheism will say their current faith is a "crutch"? Converts are the most extreme, and this applies to both sides.
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
It is not intended to make you believe. It is information, and nothing more, and the moral of the story is "you are responsible for your actions". Again, as for the "horrors described in the Quran", you keep dancing around a simple question - Does the God who created us and knows us better than ourselves, literally inside out, lack the capacity to judge fairly as per the promise in the Quran? Stop appealing to emotion, and start thinking.
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
Are you joking?!? Of course they weren't. The Quran is FULL of examples of these people, they are called hypocrites who claim belief and do not follow through with actions and intentions, and by Quranic standards, they are definitely kaffir, since to do their acts would require rejecting many verses of the Quran and scripture, and in turn, God. These people are concretely such, having acknowledged that the book is the word of God, yet still turning away. This is a perfectly valid argument, but militant atheisms have attempted to spin it into the "No true X" fallacy, backed up by "Islam" as a label as opposed to a system, and hypocrites. Belief is by action, then by affirmation, and these peoples' actions show their complete lack of belief. Remember that in the Quran, it states hypocrites have been made easy to see (631-2, especially note 632 which describes their exact psyche, http//free-minds.org/articles/hadith/testimony.htm - this goes in-depth, though the main topic is unrelated). In any case, be careful where you throw that argument. It is purely baseless. Such enlightening logic from the "beacon of logic, rationality and free thinking" (ahem - not you, but the general source of that particular argument).
Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
Your usage of the concept of hell-fire to reject the Quran. Someone should not use the hell-fire to compel another into belief, and someone simply should not use it to reject belief. It falls into the domain of unverifiable knowledge of the unseen (see 37, 1736, and others).
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
Your choice. It doesn't affect any of us in this life, in any case. Rather, it does, but it should never if one strives to be a good human without compulsion.
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I have heard about the Submitters but don't know a great deal about Rashad Khlaifah or the Qur'an only group - except that they reject Hadith and are considered apostates by traditional Muslims. (In my experience most Muslims have heard of the submitters, but - like me - actually know very little about them apart from the fact they reject Hadith)
I never came accross this site before and wasn't aware it was a submitters site.
So is it funded and run by submitters?
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
This site has zero to do with "Submitters", to my perception.
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
LOL. www.yuksel.org
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Dear cosmicdancer
Please read the following article may be you could find your answer.
http//www.themodernreligion.com/index2.html
May god guide you.
peace
Thanks - Actually I know the sister who set up that site - it is a good site and she is a sweet sister )
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Does the God who created us and knows us better than ourselves, literally inside out, lack the capacity to judge fairly as per the promise in the Quran? Stop appealing to emotion, and start thinking.
If God exists - then, yes, I would expect him to know us better than ourselves.
That doesn't make it any easier for me to accept the idea that unbelievers will burn in Hell.
It only encourages me to defer such questions to such a time that God can answer them.
I used to say that to myself.
But now I feel that it is my responsibility to ask questions and if the answers don't satisfy me then how can I believe? Surely that's why God put us here?
If I am wrong - then God can of course punish me for rejecting him and Islam.
But I can only call it as I see it - and in my heart of hearts I do not believe God will punish me for that - even if I am wrong.
Are you joking?!? Of course they weren't.
Whatever you think of Bin Laden and his merry men - they ardently believe what they believe.
Of course you consider them Kafirs.
They consider you Kafir.
They have their interpretations - you have yours.
From what I have seen on this site (i.e regarding the verse about hitting one's wife) I can't say I am very impressed with either of you.
There are so many people claiming they represent 'true' Islam - it's a joke and I can fully understand why so many non-Muslims ask
Will the real Islam please stand up.
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What's 991 bombers? Whats "7/7 bombers" got to do with "believers"? ???
Again - of course you don't consider them believers - nor do they consider you a believer.
You say you have clear proof - they say they have clear proof.
Let's assumeyou are right and these people are not believers. The problem is there is a huge number of them who persistently and consistently seem to be unable to recognise the simple fact that they are actually going completely against Islam.
I guess they must be completely insane or something.
Because it is so clear and obvious that they are not following Islam.
Isn't it wierd?
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If God exists - then, yes, I would expect him to know us better than ourselves.
That doesn't make it any easier for me to accept the idea that unbelievers will burn in Hell.
It only encourages me to defer such questions to such a time that God can answer them.
I used to say that to myself.
But now I feel that it is my responsibility to ask questions and if the answers don't satisfy me then how can I believe? Surely that's why God put us here?
If I am wrong - then God can of course punish me for rejecting him and Islam.
But I can only call it as I see it - and in my heart of hearts I do not believe God will punish me for that - even if I am wrong.
Whatever you think of Bin Laden and his merry men - they ardently believe what they believe.
Of course you consider them Kafirs.
They consider you Kafir.
They have their interpretations - you have yours.
From what I have seen on this site (i.e regarding the verse about hitting one's wife) I can't say I am very impressed with either of you.
There are so many people claiming they represent 'true' Islam - it's a joke and I can fully understand why so many non-Muslims ask
Will the real Islam please stand up.
That doesn't make it any easier for me to accept the idea that unbelievers will burn in Hell.
Can you please stop parroting that statement? It has been parroted back that God judges fairly, PERIOD. You or I have zero authority to judge who rejects and who accepts. Your appeal to emotion is very weak in this regard, because the emotions should not even be formulated or felt.
If I am wrong - then God can of course punish me for rejecting him and Islam.
Your view of "rejection" is frankly, just strange. Is being punished for not accepting something you yourself have not, and can not, verify, fair? No, it isn't. Please use your human instinct. In the Quran, it is said this instinct is programmed into us by the creator. So, don't attribute lack of mercy to God when you would (probably) be more merciful.
But I can only call it as I see it - and in my heart of hearts I do not believe God will punish me for that - even if I am wrong.
See above. The deen is engraved into us, but God guides whom God wills.
Whatever you think of Bin Laden and his merry men - they ardently believe what they believe.
Do they? Their goals are mostly political. http//www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism.html
They cannot justify their religious goals with the Quran, and this is plain to see.
Of course you consider them Kafirs.
They consider you Kafir.
I am not in a position to judge them "kaffir", authority for that rests with the best of judges. But they are clearly contradicting many Quranic principles, such as no compulsion in religion, and no aggression except for aggression.
They have their interpretations - you have yours.
So, do you agree with communism because "they have their idealogies and you have yours"? What about Nazi-ism? Or any other such diabolical plans? Again, an invalid argument, based on fallacious reasoning - that it cannot be differentiated which is right and which is wrong. The Quran clearly states that it makes a clear delineation between truth and falsehood, and by this principle, can Bin Laden and his cronies be shown as the hypocrites they are.
From what I have seen on this site (i.e regarding the verse about hitting one's wife) I can't say I am very impressed with either of you.
Your entirely subjective opinion is not fact. Nor is it well-grounded, as the sheer volume of pages this thread has, shows.
There are so many people claiming they represent 'true' Islam - it's a joke and I can fully understand why so many non-Muslims ask
Will the real Islam please stand up.
Anybody claiming they represent "true Islam" is either liar and a hypocrite, or a rasool or nabi. The latter are exceedingly rare. Can it be agreed that Islam, if it is taken as the word of God, can be derived purely from the Quran? In that, if Sunni-ism is the true Islam, the Quran will point to this directly and logically?
Again - of course you don't consider them believers - nor do they consider you a believer.
You say you have clear proof - they say they have clear proof.
Let's assumeyou are right and these people are not believers. The problem is there is a huge number of them who persistently and consistently seem to be unable to recognise the simple fact that they are actually going completely against Islam.
I guess they must be completely insane or something.
Because it is so clear and obvious that they are not following Islam.
Isn't it wierd?
Political influences and other things do that to people. What about the Western oppression, which you concretely cannot deny the existance of (see Iranian coup, Saudi support, which are the tip of the iceberg), does that not also demonstrate mass stupidity? What about the sheer fact that George Bush was voted in twice, is that not stupidity on a mass scale? Also, where is this "huge number"? If there was such a huge number, it appears they are either a) jinn, i.e. invisible, or b) exceedingly good at concealing themselves or c) they would die on an equally large scale. But, as you know, terrorists & insurgents don't die on a large scale, civillians do, however (especially USA vs Iraq, Israel VS Lebanon, disgusting people).
So what if it is "clear and obvious that they are not following Islam"? The psyche of these people are also detailed in the Quran. They have eyes with which they cannot see, brains that cannot percieve, etc. The atheist argument is also based on this appeal to majority - apparently, the entirety of mankind save a few tribes and a billion people nowadays are wrong, but cannot see they are wrong.
It is not weird to the person that listens to the Quran, because the Quran and previous scripture already confirm this will happen.
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Again - of course you don't consider them believers - nor do they consider you a believer.
You say you have clear proof - they say they have clear proof.
Let's assumeyou are right and these people are not believers. The problem is there is a huge number of them who persistently and consistently seem to be unable to recognise the simple fact that they are actually going completely against Islam.
I guess they must be completely insane or something.
Because it is so clear and obvious that they are not following Islam.
Isn't it wierd?
You didn't understand my question - "What's 991 bombers?" Are you talking about 9/11 hijackers? I was confused by what you wrote, that's why I asked. ???
As for 7/7 bombers, search for this video when you get the chance - terrorstorm. You'll see what I mean by they have nothing to do with 'believers'.
I'm not sure if you remember, but in reply to you 3rd post on this forum, I asked if you could visit threads in regard to 9/11. If you don't mind, I'd like to hear what you think.
peace
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Terrorstorm is a great documentary
Anyway, CD, I didn't get any response. What do you think of the many scientific and mathematical signs in the quran? I'm not basing my whole belief solely on that, but just wondering. You seem to not take these into consideration simply because some verses don't appeal to you... and because things like 9/11 happen? ..lol
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Can you please stop parroting that statement? It has been parroted back that God judges fairly, PERIOD.
I have no proof of that statement.
The Qur'an may well say God judges fairly - but saying something - and it being true are two different things.
I don't think burning unbelievers in Hell seems very fair.
So, do you agree with communism because "they have their idealogies and you have yours"?
That's irrelevent. I reject both you and Bin Laden. But which of you is closer to true Islam, I couldn't say for sure. Like I say, they have their proofs and you have yours (though if you twisted my arm I would have to say that the arguments I have seen here are weaker.)
Political influences and other things do that to people. What about the Western oppression, which you concretely cannot deny the existance of (see Iranian coup, Saudi support, which are the tip of the iceberg), does that not also demonstrate mass stupidity? What about the sheer fact that George Bush was voted in twice, is that not stupidity on a mass scale?
But The Jihadists/Salafists are quite different - they are driven by their complete devotion to their religious beliefs.
Also, where is this "huge number"? If there was such a huge number, it appears they are either a) jinn, i.e. invisible, or b) exceedingly good at concealing themselves or c) they would die on an equally large scale. But, as you know, terrorists & insurgents don't die on a large scale, civillians do, however (especially USA vs Iraq, Israel VS Lebanon, disgusting people).
Well actually there are many Salafis - I used to teach at a Muslim school don't forget and knew the Muslim community around North London well. I also know Morocco and Egypt well and the Salafi ideology is widespread and support for Bin Laden is popular amongs many Muslims on the streets of Egypt, Morocco and even England.
On the other hand I have NEVER met a Qur'an only believer.
It is not weird to the person that listens to the Quran, because the Quran and previous scripture already confirm this will happen.
Then what is the matter with all these Jihadis, Wahhabis, Salafis and even the vast majority of traditional Muslims who follow the traditional Mathabs?
How come only a tiny minority of Muslims in this day and age have been able to read the Qur'an and understand the obvious like you?
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You didn't understand my question - "What's 991 bombers?" Are you talking about 9/11 hijackers? I was confused by what you wrote, that's why I asked. ???
Yes - sorry - I meant 911.
I can't visit any other thread right now - my brain has internet forum overload.
)
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Terrorstorm is a great documentary
Anyway, CD, I didn't get any response. What do you think of the many scientific and mathematical signs in the quran? I'm not basing my whole belief solely on that, but just wondering. You seem to not take these into consideration simply because some verses don't appeal to you... and because things like 9/11 happen? ..lol
Even if they are true - they would not convince me to believe unless I believed in the content - the actual message.
But it seems that even these mathematical miracles seem to be false anyway from what I read about the first one on your link (365 days) it seems that he randomly decided what forms of Yawm to count and what forms to dismiss to reach the required number. It also seem the guy who did the 19 miracle also ignored some verses.
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Even if they are true - they would not convince me to believe unless I believed in the content - the actual message.
Oh alright, that explains a lot. So ANY extraordinary signs wouldn't even raise your eyebrow simply because somethings don't appeal to you?
By all means, believe what you want. Again, I tend to go more with objectivity.
But it seems that even these mathematical miracles seem to be false anyway from what I read about the first one on your link (365 days) it seems that he randomly decided what forms of Yawm to count and what forms to dismiss to reach the required number. It also seem the guy who did the 19 miracle also ignored some verses.
You realize there are at least hundreds more scientific/mathematical signs on that site? I really don't know how you would explain some of them coming from a human.
I don't look at a few Muslims who commit crimes like 9/11 (supposedly) and apply that to the quran. What Muslims do does not equal what the quran says. I also don't say that simply because a group of people are the minority, they're more inclined to being wrong, as if Galileo wasn't a minority.
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I have no proof of that statement.
The Qur'an may well say God judges fairly - but saying something - and it being true are two different things.
I don't think burning unbelievers in Hell seems very fair.
That's irrelevent. I reject both you and Bin Laden. But which of you is closer to true Islam, I couldn't say for sure. Like I say, they have their proofs and you have yours (though if you twisted my arm I would have to say that the arguments I have seen here are weaker.)
But The Jihadists/Salafists are quite different - they are driven by their complete devotion to their religious beliefs.
Well actually there are many Salafis - I used to teach at a Muslim school don't forget and knew the Muslim community around North London well. I also know Morocco and Egypt well and the Salafi ideology is widespread and support for Bin Laden is popular amongs many Muslims on the streets of Egypt, Morocco and even England.
On the other hand I have NEVER met a Qur'an only believer.
Then what is the matter with all these Jihadis, Wahhabis, Salafis and even the vast majority of traditional Muslims who follow the traditional Mathabs?
How come only a tiny minority of Muslims in this day and age have been able to read the Qur'an and understand the obvious like you?
A) Please read the posts, SHM's post and my last. All citations are there.
B) And can you prove that statement to be true or false? NO. Simple as that. Likewise, you cannot prove Hell to be true or false, in the here and now. So, the entire argument is irrelevant.
C) Please stop parroting that statement. It has zero basis in reality.
D) Again, your subjective opinion. If the person's argument who is advocating genocide on a large scale is more appealing to you, you have severe mental deficiencies, and this is written in all seriousness.
E) Yet the demands by so-called Jihadists are almost entirely political, and mostly blowback from the actions of Israel, the USA, and Britan before the Commonwealth.
F) I have yet to meet a single person who openly or secretly advocates genocide in the form that Al-Qaida do, in the heart of London. Am I living in a cocoon? I just don't see these evil islamofascististic terrists anywhere here.
G) The point being? Have you ever met Mother Theresa?
H) This is a result of parrot fashion & indoctrination. Have you ever set foot in a madrassa? Almost every single student there will probably be able to repeat vocalised Arabic, as if they were a native speaker. Show them text without the short vowels, and they all drop. Ask them to recite the meaning of one of those surahs or a verse - and they all drop. Strangely, of course, this doesn't happen for hadeeth. How many of these "jihadist salafi wahhabis" actually have knowledge or have bothered to question their beliefs past what they were taught by their fathers (another Quranic example)? The language barrier is milked to the core by so-called Mullahs and others. How many non-Arabic people sitting at a Friday jumah are secretly thinking "What the hell is this gibberish?"? So on, and so on. Plus, in many countries, Islam is heavily mixed with tradition, and very little knowledge of actual Quran (parrot fashion aside) is rare - translations and such. However, the village elders will instantly tell you this and this hadeeth that says you should or should not urinate to the direction of the qiblah. Can they give a reference to this hadeeth in Sahih Bukhari or another compilation? No, because they are parroting what they were told by their mullah who was parroting what he was told by some other, until we get up to the point of a remotely educated scholar. Chinese whispers in full effect. How many people at the "muslim school" you taught at were placed their by the parents because it was "Muslim" and how many questioned their beliefs? The Quran is filled to the brim of these examples, but it wooshes over their heads.
G) How come only a tiny minority of the ENTIRE BODY OF MANKIND have suddenly come to the realisation, that after eight thousand plus years of civilised human history, there is no God? As for the "understand the obvious", perhaps because they had no access to "the obvious". And of course, mass misguidance. Where a verse says one thing clearly and can only end in one result, traditionalists will still add such and such an interpretation so that it will fit with their preconceptions. Of course, this riddles the Quran with even more logical fallacies (in a similar way that taking out one building block of Khalifa's counting destroys the rest and creates a new set), and creates a new religion when compounded. And FYI, it is not a "tiny minority" that has "islam", a lot of people (non-adherents) believe in God and use their own instincts to go about. Most "Muslims" do so too (unless you are telling me that the person reciting Arabic in parrot fashion in a rural village is magically drawing guidance from the book).
I don't look at a few Muslims who commit crimes like 9/11 (supposedly) and apply that to the quran. What Muslims do does not equal what the quran says. I also don't say that simply because a group of people are the minority, they're more inclined to being wrong, as if Galileo wasn't a minority.
Well said
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Even if they are true - they would not convince me to believe unless I believed in the content - the actual message.
But it seems that even these mathematical miracles seem to be false anyway from what I read about the first one on your link (365 days) it seems that he randomly decided what forms of Yawm to count and what forms to dismiss to reach the required number. It also seem the guy who did the 19 miracle also ignored some verses.
He counted the singulars, did he not?