Hell
-
I always laugh when I see things like "What a Quranic Thought!!!.Only a Quranist can think on these lines."
The irony of the generalization is killing me
Anyway, on with the discussion, just wanted to get that off my chest. Sorry to intrude
If you do not want this then avoid saying such things.
-Quranic interpretation on may/may not basis
-Qiblatun has no dual form
-ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different i3raab
-If "X" is examplified with "Y" it means "X" does not exist at all .
-To give a book /To teach a book are similar phrases
who has produced such "Pearls of wisdom" ?? -
When one says heaven and hells are metaphoric and allegorical ,it means they do not exist tangibly.
I am simply saying the examples in the quran are not literally what heaven/hell are like (in my opinion). For the reason that you stated and I agreed with
"
-Janna and Hell are among the "alghaib" and these cannot be thought of and sensed by human mind.
-the principle is ,to make a thing thought that is always given example of a perceptible and easily thought of example." -
I am simply saying the examples in the quran are not literally what heaven/hell are like (in my opinion). For the reason that you stated and I agreed with
"
-Janna and Hell are among the "alghaib" and these cannot be thought of and sensed by human mind.
-the principle is ,to make a thing thought that is always given example of a perceptible and easily thought of example."handshake handshake handshake peace
-
Peace cosmicdancer,
You may have to (as may I) really search for what 'rejecter', 'disbeliever' means throught al-quran. Their traits mentioned in al-quran are people who do evil things. Selfish, all about the money, destroying the environment etc... God wouldn't be torturing them , IMO. They would be torturing themselves. Hell IMO could be just the absence of God
-
Peace
Perfect as myself? Please, let's not let this conversation get out of hand or I shall have to close this thread or send you a warning. I did not claim to be perfect of course. I'm just speaking from my own experience which is why I was speaking of me and not we.
Joe
Sorry, I should have made my self clearer.
I meant that although you (and other believers) keep God in mind and acknowledge and thank him constantly - the fact that another person fails to do that is not reason enough to torture him. Particularly if that God claims to be Merciful.
-
I fear for you, if that is your learning technique. Pay attention, it is 4715, not 4712. Also, ask the author, not me.
4715 ...
Even if it is a "Mathal" - it still means painful torture for the unbeliever - or it is not a "Mathal" is it?
-
But i think you missed my point. First remember that these are warnings of the consequences of your actions. For example, if your child was about to touch a hot pot or spinning blades, wouldn't you warn the child? You may say "dont touch that pot, you will burn your hand" or "dont put your hand there, it will get cut off." These are actual consequences of your child action of touching a hot pot or spinning blades. Such is the warnings of the Hell. It is consequences of our actions. God warns us of it (4165).
Yes I must warn my child of dangers and if they ignore them they suffer. But I have no control over the world. If I did, I would make sure they would be safe from harm and would never suffer.
God (if he exists) is not a passive observer of Hell. He is not saying "Watch out you might burn yourself because there is this nasty place called Hell where unbelievers go."
He was the one who put it there and decided unbelievers go there.
So this arguement (which I have heard many times and used to say to myself - once upon a time) is simply false.
God is not comparable to humans who can do nothing about the way the world works.
God can not only do something - but more importantly - He is the one who made the rules.
So when one gets burnt in Hell - it is God who is doing it - you can't say, oh well it's just a consiquence of their own choice to disbelieve.
It is God who decided that disbelief results in torture.
This is an illogical argument. If you believe judgment, accountability, and discipline is about a vain, egotistical, vindictive, petty, and jealous GOD, why do you obey laws of the land? Why don't you rob people? Why don't you rape women? You don't you kill a man? Why do you care for you child? Why try to make other people happy? Why do you behavior with a moral consciousness? Why? Because you fear the consequences.
Did I say judgment, accountability and discipline is about a vain, egotistical God?
I have nothing against punishing real criminals.
I said torturing someone because he doesn't believe in God is about a vain egotistical God.
People you claim they disbelieve in GOD existence are just the most confused deniers,
And you think they deserve to be tortured for being confused and misguided?
-
Peace cosmicdancer,
You may have to (as may I) really search for what 'rejecter', 'disbeliever' means throught al-quran. Their traits mentioned in al-quran are people who do evil things. Selfish, all about the money, destroying the environment etc... God wouldn't be torturing them , IMO. They would be torturing themselves. Hell IMO could be just the absence of God
Re "God wouldn't be torturing them , IMO. They would be torturing themselves"
Please see my post to "SatanHatesMe"
Peace
)
-
Even if it is a "Mathal" - it still means painful torture for the unbeliever - or it is not a "Mathal" is it?
The descriptions there are. What if I said "the pain was as if I was being branded by a hot iron", does that mean I am such?
As for disbelievers vs believers, see things like 292, 3184, 532, so on. Clear signs/arguments are presented. Rejecting the Quran does not only include rejecting the God. As in 532, killing a human being is also rejecting. Then, you have your actual answer in 1047 - they will all be judged justly. Now, if you accept the existance of God, then you must accept God's infinite wisdom which is self-eviden around us, surely the creator knows how to judge his creation? We are nothing but very, very complex supercomputers, keep that in mind. So the creator of us will easily know exactly what is in our hearts and minds. A programmer can take a debugger to his program and see exactly the program's intentions and deeds at any point in time, so why is this impossible for God?
And you think they deserve to be tortured for being confused and misguided?
If you created mankind and guided some and misguided others, would you lavish punishment on those who YOU misguided? Please use your common sense.
When one says heaven and hells are metaphoric and allegorical ,it means they do not exist tangibly.
I sincerely believe your reading comprehension skills get in the way of understanding and working towards the truth. At first it was a joke, but PLEASE, purchase a dictionary or other learning materials. Thanks to Navid for clearing that up )
-
I sincerely believe your reading comprehension skills get in the way of understanding and working towards the truth.
Perhaps Heaven is only for those with good reading comprehension skills.
-
Perhaps Heaven is only for those with good reading comprehension skills.
Is falsely accusing someone because you didn't pay attention a good thing then?
It wasn't directed at you in any case )
-
God is not comparable to humans who can do nothing about the way the world works.
God can not only do something - but more importantly ? He is the one who made the rules.
So when one gets burnt in Hell - it is God who is doing it - you can't say, oh well it's just a consiquence of their own choice to disbelieve.
It is God who decided that disbelief results in torture.
To say that it is GOD fault for creating Hell and Heaven is like say it is GOD fault for creating hot and cold, high and low, close far, good evil, love and hate etc. This is an illogical and has no purpose. God create pairs of everything to assist us with or decisions (5149).
The argument that ?GOD created this and therefore He can make it this way or that way? is illogical because it has purpose. What you desire is a world without purpose and logic to it, where evil receives the same rewards as righteousness. Or righteousness get punish in the same way as evil. This is illogical and you know that.
But I finally understand your true issue. The issue you have is not really with Hell and ?torture?, but applying it as a punishment to one how disbelieve in GOD. And the real reason you have issues with this is because you have misconception on what belief and disbelief is. No one is put in Hell simply because they disbelieve, it is the deeds from that disbelief that are the consequence of Hell .
Like I said earlier, the concept of belief in the Quran and any other scripture is not the simply concept of having any cognitive content held as true. It is actions base on that belief, your deeds.
For example, if I believe fire is cool and safe, I will act on that belief and put my hand in it. After I get 3rd degree burns, my belief will change with regards to fire being safe and cool. However, I got burnt only because I acted on that belief. GOD makes this VERY CLEAR in the Quran
42 30
Anything bad that happens to you is a consequence of your own deeds, and He overlooks many (of your sins).?Anything bad that happens to you? means you deeds has consequences (including Hell), not just our ?belief? or ?disbelief.?
-
Deeds follow belief.
-
If you created mankind and guided some and misguided others, would you lavish punishment on those who YOU misguided? Please use your common sense.
Obviously not, but using the very common sense you speak of, the "god" of religion does and unambigiously clear as per the Quran. This begs the question whether a fathomless supernatural "god" had any sense or this "god" was never as such to begin with? The effects and after-effects of believing in such as god to live a righteous life becomes injurious to self esteem by malicious and deceptive claims and fear enthralled. Righteousness is independent of such ficticious beliefs and the reality speaks of it lucidly.Peace!
-
Obviously not, but using the very common sense you speak of, the "god" of religion does and unambigiously clear as per the Quran. This begs the question whether a fathomless supernatural "god" had any sense or this "god" was never as such to begin with? The effects and after-effects of believing in such as god to live a righteous life becomes injurious to self esteem by malicious and deceptive claims and fear enthralled. Righteousness is independent of such ficticious beliefs and the reality speaks of it lucidly.
Peace!
Provide references. They are fairly judged according to personal responsibility (3722-40).
-
peace
just wanny ask,
why do you focus on hell and punishing? you think God does it for fun or something?why don't you start a topic called heaven
and ask, why is God rewarding people? why should people be in bliss for ETERNITY? what did we do so good?remember, in quran, it's mentioned more times that God forgives then punishes
so these people in hell apparently deserve it
look at the world, God is letting evil exist and corrupted people who cause chaos, it's not like they can't stop or learn,
we are all given a chance, we are all warned, people don't have to do bad things, nobody's forcing them,
so some people deserve to go to hellGod is just
-
No one is put in Hell simply because they disbelieve, it is the deeds from that disbelief that are the consequence of Hell
Are you saying that so long as you are good - you will not go to hell, regardless of whether you disbelieve in God?
-
why don't you start a topic called heaven
and ask, why is God rewarding people? why should people be in bliss for ETERNITY? what did we do so good?Indeed ComicDancer, why only focus on hell?