Are the Quran aloners hurting the refomist cause?

Leoxyz

So 7750 (among other countless verses) does not apply? The quran, using CLEAR verses tells you to not follow any other hadith aside the quran, to follow God only and the quran only which is complete and clearly explained, that the quran cites EVERY example, etc. These verses are indisputable. There is only ONE way to interpret them. Yet you deny these verses through upholding the hadith.

Now, let's compare what I said above to the reason you uphold the hadith, which is based on ONE quote that is manipulated to get one meaning. "Obey the messenger" DOES NOT have ONE meaning (to follow everything prophet muhammad does through the narration of long chains, gathered after the prophet's death). "Obey the messenger" can be intepreted in different ways. However, you stick to one interpretation and use that to uphold the hadith.

Do you see the difference? Please approach this with an open mind. How could you not see this?

Please, explain your thoughts on verses such as 7750. What does it mean by "Which hadith after this will they believe?"

Peace

Dear Navid ;
I give you an example;
A country has a constituition .Constituition decrees
"Obey the constituition only and whosoever betrays will be punished
That is true .

Now in the constituition there is another provision of appointing "governors" in different states (provinces ) of the country.Constituition also decrees that governors should be obeyed.
What do you think that this obeying of Governors is
-obedience of constituition or
-disobedience of the constituition

??????????
I will be waiting for you thoughtful reply

Navid

Dear Navid ;
I give you an example;
A country has a constituition .Constituition decrees
"Obey the constituition only and whosoever betrays will be punished
That is true .

Now in the constituition there is another provision of appointing "governors" in different states (provinces ) of the country.Constituition also decrees that governors should be obeyed.
What do you think that this obeying of Governors is
-obedience of constituition or
-disobedience of the constituition

??????????
I will be waiting for you thoughtful reply

With the context of "obey the consitution only and whosoever betrays it will be punished," it is painfully clear that nothing else should be followed beside it as this commandment is clear Obey only the constitution. Now, with this in mind, why on earth would you interpret (out of various interpretations, as opposed to ONE interpretation in "obey only the constitution&quot obey the governors as to mean something beside the constitution.

Similarly

-The quran says it should only be followed (a clear sign, with no other interpretation).
-It also says to obey the MESSENGER (not the human Muhammad, remember quran does not run out of words).
-You choose ONE interpretation of "obey the messenger" and use it to follow something in addition to the quran, when in reality, it could mean anything else since it is not clear like "follow only the quran."
-Thus, there is a contradiction.

This is very easy to see.

Leoxyz

With the context of "obey the consitution only and whosoever betrays it will be punished," it is painfully clear that nothing else should be followed beside it as this commandment is clear Obey only the constitution. Now, with this in mind, why on earth would you interpret (out of various interpretations, as opposed to ONE interpretation in "obey only the constitution&quot obey the governors as to mean something beside the constitution.

Similarly

-The quran says it should only be followed (a clear sign, with no other interpretation).
-It also says to obey the MESSENGER (not the human Muhammad, remember quran does not run out of words).
-You choose ONE interpretation of "obey the messenger" and use it to follow something in addition to the quran, when in reality, it could mean anything else since it is not clear like "follow only the quran."
-Thus, there is a contradiction.

This is very easy to see.

Actually if you could answer my question straightforward ,the things would have been easier.
When "obey the governor " is written in the constituition ,it means
"obeying the governor " is exactly "obeying the constituition" .Because we are obeying him because of constituitional decree.If someone disobeys the governor ,in fact he is disobeying the constituition and that is betraying.
Your said;

-It also says to obey the MESSENGER (not the human Muhammad, remember quran does not run out of words).

I agree with you.Every one has different roles to play.
e.g a man may be

a doctor
a father
a brother
a friend
at one time.Exactly a governer may have all these roles to play.
This is a bit natural that those orders of him which are concerned his constituitnal duty ,people are bound to obey them not those orders which are non-constituinal are not supposed to be obeyed by the people.
But one has to decide which order is
constituitional
non constituinal
Now see another scenario;
constituition says that things should be provided on cheaper rates.
Governor being the administrator of state takes some step to carry out this "order " of the constituition to provide cheaper goods to the people.Don't you think that his taking of that step to fullfil the requirement of the constituition is actually in capacity of a "governer " not in the capacity of a friend or father or husband.
people are bound to obey those steps ordered by the governor.

Quran is a constituition along with assigning "Muhammad PBUH " as Rasool.
All his steps taken for implementation of the constituition should be obeyed e.g.
Quran says = Say Salat
Prophet tells = How to say salat

Quran says = perform Hajj
prophet tells = how to perform Hajj

and so on .
No one says that it is essential to wear same dress as he used to wear (as it is usually propagated by quranists) or starts travelling by horses or camels because Holy Prophet used to ride by them..This is wrong concept of Sunna.
please come up if there is any other question.

Navid

Actually if you could answer my question straightforward ,the things would have been easier.
When "obey the governor " is written in the constituition ,it means
"obeying the governor " is exactly "obeying the constituition" .Because we are obeying him because of constituitional decree.If someone disobeys the governor ,in fact he is disobeying the constituition and that is betraying.
Your said;

Yes, exactly.

That doesn't mean obey something outside of the constitution (that in fact add on to the constitution and contradict it), that has been reported about the governor down long chains of narration. Again, you have not responded to what I posted because there is no logical response and deep within you, you know this. You are going against the quran in adding on divine laws/guidance to it, which aside from it being against the quran, is in it of itself flawed, as I showed, and you didn't respond to

-The quran says it should only be followed (a clear sign, with no other interpretation).
-It also says to obey the MESSENGER (not the human Muhammad, remember quran does not run out of words).
-You choose ONE interpretation of "obey the messenger" and use it to follow something in addition to the quran, when in reality, it could mean anything else since it is not clear like "follow only the quran."
-Thus, there is a contradiction.

I agree with you.Every one has different roles to play.
e.g a man may be

a doctor
a father
a brother
a friend
at one time.Exactly a governer may have all these roles to play.
This is a bit natural that those orders of him which are concerned his constituitnal duty ,people are bound to obey them not those orders which are non-constituinal are not supposed to be obeyed by the people.
But one has to decide which order is
constituitional
non constituinal
Now see another scenario;
constituition says that things should be provided on cheaper rates.
Governor being the administrator of state takes some step to carry out this "order " of the constituition to provide cheaper goods to the people.Don't you think that his taking of that step to fullfil the requirement of the constituition is actually in capacity of a "governer " not in the capacity of a friend or father or husband.
people are bound to obey those steps ordered by the governor.

Quran is a constituition along with assigning "Muhammad PBUH " as Rasool.
All his steps taken for implementation of the constituition should be obeyed e.g.
Quran says = Say Salat
Prophet tells = How to say salat

Quran says = perform Hajj
prophet tells = how to perform Hajj

and so on .
No one says that it is essential to wear same dress as he used to wear (as it is usually propagated by quranists) or starts travelling by horses or camels because Holy Prophet used to ride by them..This is wrong concept of Sunna.
please come up if there is any other question.

Not only are you believing everything humans that gathered long chains of narration regarding muhammad as the absolute truth, you are adding on to the quran. There is no need to do this.

AlFajr

Please Post the Hadiths that you think are mandatory to be a muslim.

Leoxyz

Yes, exactly.

That doesn't mean obey something outside of the constitution (that in fact add on to the constitution and contradict it), that has been reported about the governor down long chains of narration. Again, you have not responded to what I posted because there is no logical response and deep within you, you know this. You are going against the quran in adding on divine laws/guidance to it, which aside from it being against the quran, is in it of itself flawed, as I showed, and you didn't respond to

-The quran says it should only be followed (a clear sign, with no other interpretation).
-It also says to obey the MESSENGER (not the human Muhammad, remember quran does not run out of words).
-You choose ONE interpretation of "obey the messenger" and use it to follow something in addition to the quran, when in reality, it could mean anything else since it is not clear like "follow only the quran."
-Thus, there is a contradiction.

Not only are you believing everything humans that gathered long chains of narration regarding muhammad as the absolute truth, you are adding on to the quran. There is no need to do this.

Dear Navid;
You are jumping to some topic very prematurely.
First of all you should decide if the Holy Prophet has got the duty to explain the 'methods of Ibada" as I have mentioned and that we are bound to obey him.

Then this question will arise if those explanations are preserved or not.
The Quran has clearly assigned him three roles;

3164

1Recitation of verses
2Teaching of Book + Hikma (philosophy)
3Purification of souls

These were his constituinal duties(Quranic)
Do you agree with this or not ??

zeljko67

Leo,

First, please stop using the term "holy prophet" when discussing messenger. The two are not the same.

Secondly regarding verse 3164

God has bestowed favour upon the believers by sending them a messenger from amongst themselves reciting His revelations and bettering them and teaching them the Scripture and the wisdom, and they were before in manifest darkness.

Just by the fact that the messenger delivers the message;he recites the message, he betters people through the message and he teaches them scripture and wisdom which is cotained in the message.

Leoxyz

Leo,

First, please stop using the term "holy prophet" when discussing messenger. The two are not the same.

Secondly regarding verse 3164

God has bestowed favour upon the believers by sending them a messenger from amongst themselves reciting His revelations and bettering them and teaching them the Scripture and the wisdom, and they were before in manifest darkness.

Just by the fact that the messenger delivers the message;he recites the message, he betters people through the message and he teaches them scripture and wisdom which is cotained in the message.

What is meant by Teaching of book ?

What is Hikma (Philosophy)

First of all explain these two words .then we can move forward.
Why is the word "Holy" pricking you? Is this very painful??

zeljko67

What is meant by Teaching of book ?

What is Hikma (Philosophy)

Z Imparting knowledge to others, and in this case imparting scripture and wisdom to others.
The message delivered(quran) contains explicitly both scripture and wisdom(hikma).

Why is the word "Holy" pricking you? Is this very painful??

Z Actually the painful part was your illogical equivocation of using the term prophet when discussing the messenger.

zeljko67

PEace,

Just thinking..

If the messenger stated..."obey god and the quran" the response the messenger would have probably received, "What quran are you talking about" To which the messenger would have probably replied along the lines of, "Ok, you got me there, what I mean is the words that are coming from my mouth which one day will be compiled in a book called the quran".

And then as a probable rejoinder to the messengers reply, "So, are you saying we can wait to obey the god and the quran, at least until your words are compiled into a book called the quran".

Messenger No thats not what I am saying, okay, how about we try this, Obey the god and the messenger(who delivers gods message to you so that you may obey the god).

and from there someone might say, this might be a problem, for the pagans might actully try to attribute other words to you outside the message/quran.

To which we might hear the messenger saying something along the lines of..to which hadith besides the one I am speaking would they uphold, cursed pagan fabricators..

Anyways, thats what I was thinking.

Peace

Bigmo

Dear Navid;
You are jumping to some topic very prematurely.
First of all you should decide if the Holy Prophet has got the duty to explain the 'methods of Ibada" as I have mentioned and that we are bound to obey him.

Then this question will arise if those explanations are preserved or not.
The Quran has clearly assigned him three roles;

3164

1Recitation of verses
2Teaching of Book + Hikma (philosophy)
3urification of souls

These were his constituinal duties(Quranic)
Do you agree with this or not ??

There are some issues you are not looking at. The command to obey the porphet I believe is valid. But the problem we were not there to know what he commanded. Neither the prophet nor his companions left behind them and spread anything except the Quran and I believe the rituals of performing Ibada.

Second the hikmah is the Quran. Since the Quran say

Ya Sin. By the Quran full of Wisdom--thou art indeed one of the messengers, on a Straight Way. It is a Revelation sent down by (Him). The Exalted in Might, Most Merciful, in order that thou mayest admonish a people whose fathers had received no admonition, and who therefore remained heedless (of the Signs of Allah). The Word is proved true against the greater part of them; for they do not believe. (Quran 361-7)

33.34. And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of God and His Wisdom for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them).

Obviously what people would recite in their homes was the Quran. Yet it also says the hikmah. So maybe in theory you maybe correct but it was not something WE were exposed to and neither did the prophet and his companions exposed us to the prophet's hadiths. So I take that the command was a command of leadership of a community.

unknownuser

Why is the word "Holy" pricking you? Is this very painful??

It should prickle anyone who knows the meaning of holy and claims to be monotheist.

Bigmo

The divisions here run deep. We need a compromise. However Leoxyz did not respnd to this yet

Total number of traditions in 9 volumns of Bukhari 7068

Aisha the mother of faithful 1250 (17.68%)

Abu Hurairah 1100 (15.56%)

Ibn-Umar, son of Umar 1100 (15.56%)

Anas-Ibn-Malik 900 (12.73%)

Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas 700 (9.9%)

Jobair-Ibn-Abdullah 275 (3.89%)

Abu-Musa-Ashari 165 (2.33%)

Abu-Said-Al-Khedri 130 (1.84%)

Ali-Ibn-Abitaleeb 79 (1.11%)

Umar-Ibn-Khattab 50 (0.71%)

Umm Salamh 48 (0.68%)

Abdullah-Ibn-Masud 45 (0.64%)

Muawiyah-Ibn-Abusofyan 10 (0.14%)

Hasan-Ibn-Ali 8 (0.11%)

Ali-Ibn-Husain 6 (0.08%)

Husain-Ibn-Ali 2 (0.03%)

(83% on the whole)

So tell me why have so few knew the "hikmah" and bothered letting other generation know about it? Why did the 4 caliphs who spread islam to many places not spread that hikma with them? I just don't get it.

Leoxyz

There are some issues you are not looking at. The command to obey the porphet I believe is valid. But the problem we were not there to know what he commanded. Neither the prophet nor his companions left behind them and spread anything except the Quran and I believe the rituals of performing Ibada.

Second the hikmah is the Quran. Since the Quran say

Ya Sin. By the Quran full of Wisdom--thou art indeed one of the messengers, on a Straight Way. It is a Revelation sent down by (Him). The Exalted in Might, Most Merciful, in order that thou mayest admonish a people whose fathers had received no admonition, and who therefore remained heedless (of the Signs of Allah). The Word is proved true against the greater part of them; for they do not believe. (Quran 361-7)

33.34. And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of God and His Wisdom for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them).

Obviously what people would recite in their homes was the Quran. Yet it also says the hikmah. So maybe in theory you maybe correct but it was not something WE were exposed to and neither did the prophet and his companions exposed us to the prophet's hadiths. So I take that the command was a command of leadership of a community.

Dear
Let me put the Aya again

3164

I hope you will not run away and talk sensibly backed with proper reference of authenticated book.
Our concerned topic are
= Recitation of Verses
= Teaching (Ta3leem) of the "book" and "Hikma"
= Purification of the soul of the people.

Allah has used three different Verbs and four different objects.
If it was duty of only that of a "postman" then " " would have been sufficient.Why does the Holy quran uses different verbs i.e , "

You said

Ya Sin. By the Quran full of Wisdom--

That is true Quran is Hikma ,no one denies.He not only handed over that Hikma to people but also "Taught them"
Tell me what is this teaching ?? So simple question
Or prove from any classical Arabic dictionary that
"Ta3leem "
"Talaawat"
are synonymous terms.
Ma3zaallah Allah has shown -"redundancy" in the in the sentence.
This is such an allegation on the language of the Quran which even the Disbelievers of that time and Today could put on the Quran which ,today's "Modern Zamakhsharies" are putting.
prove it.

unknownuser

Dear

You are 100% correct. Muhammad and the preceding messengers/nabis recited al-kitab, taught kitab and hikma, and purified their souls.

2219 - (a)They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. (b)Say In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. (c)Say What you can spare. (d)Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

2220 - On this world and the hereafter. (e) And they ask you concerning the orphans Say To set right for them (their affairs) is good, and if you become co-partners with them, they are your brethren; and Allah knows the mischief-maker and the pacemaker, and if Allah had pleased, He would certainly have caused you to fall into a difficulty; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

So, a, they asked him about the subject matter, asbab-e-nuzool, as the hadeethists like. In (b), he taught them what they did not know (of course, Allah taugh Muhammad the messenger wha he did not know, and Muhammad the messenger passed on the message in turn) and because he is told to be vocal, he is also reciting the Quran to them. Thus, these two things result in purification of the soul, should the people in question heed it. Muhammad the messenger had no power to guide them, his only duty was to pass the message, if they turned away.

So now, in (e), he is also doing the same. Teaching, reciting, and passing wisdom, and hence, purifying their souls.

2222 - And they ask you about menstruation. Say It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

More authentic hadeeth from the best source of hadeeth. The following verses also show how detailed the Quran can be when God wishes it to be.

3183 - (Those are they) who said Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?

So here he is attempting to judge from the book.

4127 - And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.

So, here is the isnad for this authentic hadeeth (the original arabic text)

God ==> Muhammad ==> Us.

zenje

I was in a discussion with some Muslims and they say the abandoning or questioning of hadiths would lead to chaos. They say look at the Quran aloners and how divided and lost they are?
Chaos? Division?... More than there is right now? What, 74 sects instead of 73? -\

Peace

Leoxyz