What about the muslims before Muhammad
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A Muslim is a person who follows the will of God at his or her time and place and within the available material and their understandings to him or her. So, a Muslim before Muhammad is Muslim and complete one at that. A Muslim after Muhammad (PBUH) is complete in his Islam as long as he does what he needs to do within what is available to him in that time and place.
Hussein
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A Muslim is a person who follows the will of God at his or her time and place and within the available material and their understandings to him or her.
Do you not follow the will of God by following His words?
, a Muslim before Muhammad is Muslim and complete one at that. A Muslim after Muhammad (PBUH) is complete in his Islam as long as he does what he needs to do within what is available to him in that time and place.
I'm not completely understanding. Firstly, the way to follow God is to follow His words. Secondly, are you asserting
- Muhammad's hadith is necessary in addition to God's message
- The people before Muhammad did not have Muhammad's hadith
- The people before Muhammad are as "complete in Islam" as the people after?
If this is what you are saying, it is not logical at all. If not, please elaborate.
Peace
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Then why the need to follow muhammad? And the obsession with his every move
Does Ibrahim get lesser credits than muhammad and his 'followers?
Exactly, if the people before Muhammad who didn't have his hadith are just as "complete" muslims, then what need is there to follow hearsay regarding Muhammad?
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Because you live after he came. You follow the last and not the first. Students of medicine read the latest edition of their textbook and will be tested on it and not the first edition. You can wish that you came before him but you are stuck where you are. You can wish that you never heard of hadeeth, but you have. You can wish that you never read a hadeeth but you have. You can wish that there is no "obey the messenger in the Qur'an" but there is.
You can have many wishes and you can ask many questions about the people before. The issue is you will be asked about yourself and your time and your place and your knowledge that you have and your obligations in them, whether you failed and passed.
Take care
Hussein
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Because you live after he came. You follow the last and not the first.
4213
"Progressive Muslims"
He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus "You shall uphold this system, and do not divide it." Intolerable for those who have set up partners is what you invite them towards. God chooses to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent. -
Because you live after he came. You follow the last and not the first. Students of medicine read the latest edition of their textbook and will be tested on it and not the first edition. You can wish that you came before him but you are stuck where you are. You can wish that you never heard of hadeeth, but you have. You can wish that you never read a hadeeth but you have. You can wish that there is no "obey the messenger in the Qur'an" but there is.
If there is a medicine book that says it is from God and should only be followed, I would only follow that.
To say "students follow the latest edition and not the earliest edition" is to imply Muhammad's message from God is somehow better than say, Jesus' message from God. It is all one message, from God.
You can have many wishes and you can ask many questions about the people before. The issue is you will be asked about yourself and your time and your place and your knowledge that you have and your obligations in them, whether you failed and passed.
I am not concerned with these substance-less arguments and your glittering generalities. I am concerned with logic, and you have yet to respond to it.
Peace
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- Muhammad's hadith is necessary in addition to God's message
- The people before Muhammad did not have Muhammad's hadith
- The people before Muhammad are as "complete in Islam" as the people after?
If this is what you are saying, it is not logical at all. If not, please elaborate.
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Salaam all,
Ok, here is 4213 from a more trustworthy source
Muhammad Assad
4213 In matters of faith, He has ordained for you that which He had enjoined upon Noah - and into which We gave thee insight through revelation as well as that which We had enjoined upon Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus Steadfastly uphold the faith, and do not break up your unity therein. that to which thou callest them appears oppressive to those who are wont to ascribe to other beings or forces a share in His divinity, God draws unto Himself everyone who is willing, and guides unto Himself everyone who turns unto Him.In addition, the Aya did not say that all what God ordered Noah, He ordered us.
Navid, for the book of medicine analogy, there are two things
1- No one will go to a doctor who just studied books of medicine without learning from his teachers on how to practice it.2- yes the book of Muhammad is above other books. God called it Muhaiminan= reign over the other books. So, yes the last edition is to be followed.
- Muhammad's hadith is necessary in addition to God's message
- The people before Muhammad did not have Muhammad's hadith
- The people before Muhammad are as "complete in Islam" as the people after?
The Muslims before Muhammad did not have Qur'an either and they are as complete as anyone else. Why? because they did what was required of them. They were not required to follow Muhammad or the Qur'an because they were not there. Now, that Muhammad came, the formula is totally different and you cannot be Muslim if you do not follow Muhammad and His book including everything it tells you to do as in "obey the messenger". You cannot pick and choose.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
Ok, here is 4213 from a more trustworthy source
Muhammad Assad
4213 In matters of faith, He has ordained for you that which He had enjoined upon Noah - and into which We gave thee insight through revelation as well as that which We had enjoined upon Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus Steadfastly uphold the faith, and do not break up your unity therein. that to which thou callest them appears oppressive to those who are wont to ascribe to other beings or forces a share in His divinity, God draws unto Himself everyone who is willing, and guides unto Himself everyone who turns unto Him.In addition, the Aya did not say that all what God ordered Noah, He ordered us.
Navid, for the book of medicine analogy, there are two things
1- No one will go to a doctor who just studied books of medicine without learning from his teachers on how to practice it.2- yes the book of Muhammad is above other books. God called it Muhaiminan= reign over the other books. So, yes the last edition is to be followed.
The Muslims before Muhammad did not have Qur'an either and they are as complete as anyone else. Why? because they did what was required of them. They were not required to follow Muhammad or the Qur'an because they were not there. Now, that Muhammad came, the formula is totally different and you cannot be Muslim if you do not follow Muhammad and His book including everything it tells you to do as in "obey the messenger". You cannot pick and choose.Hussein
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You didn't respond. Even assuming it is somehow better than the other messages, how does this mean we must follow hearsay regarding Muhammad?
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Can you show the verse? I was not aware of this.
The quran's message was there and the universal deen was there, and that's what was to be followed. To add in following long chains of narrations regarding Muhammad's actions as part of the universal deen, doesn't make it universal anymore and implies that the people before Muhammad were not muslim. Not to mention the fact that taking divine guidance from other than the quran is wrong, but whatever.
Peace
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Then why the need to follow muhammad? And the obsession with his every move
Does Ibrahim get lesser credits than muhammad and his 'followers?It is because Allah commanded us to obey/follow the Holy Prophet PBUH.
332
(332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger.3132
(3132) And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.459
(459) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.2454
(2454) Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, you should note it well that the Messenger is responsible for the duty entrusted to him and you are responsible for the duty entrusted to you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, for the responsibility of the Messenger is only to convey the Message clearly to you.469
(469) And he who obeys Allah and the Messenger -they shall be with those whom Allah has favoured -the Prophets, those steadfast in truthfulness *99, the martyrs, and the righteous." How excellent will they be for companions!464
(464) (And tell them that) We never sent a Messenger but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah. *94 If whenever they wronged themselves they had come to you praying to Allah for forgiveness, and had the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would indeed have found Allah All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate480
(480) He who obeys the Messenger thereby obeys Allah; as for he who turns away, We have not sent you as a keeper over them!
414
(414) And he who disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses the bounds set by Him - him shall Allah cause to enter the Fire. There he will abide. A humiliating chastisement awaits him.3336
(3336) It *65 does not behove a believing man and a believing woman that when Allah and His Messenger have given their decision in a matter, they should exercise an option in that matter of theirs; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Prophet, has indeed strayed into manifest error7223
(7223) My mission is only to convey what I receive from Him and His messages. *22 Now whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger for him awaits the fire of Hell such people shall dwell in it for ever.813
(813) This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. Whoever defies Allah and His Messenger must know that Allah is severe in punishment.963
(963) Do they not know that whoso opposes Allah and His Messenger shall have the Fire of Hell for him wherein he shall abide for ever? This is a great ignominy.2456
(2456) Therefore, establish Salat, pay the Zakat dues and obey the Messenger; it is expected that you will be shown mercy4115
(4115) As for him who sets himself against the Messenger and follows a path other than that of the believers even after true guidance had become clear to him, We will let him go to the way he has turned to, *143 and We will cast him into Hell - an evil destination.533
(533) He does not speak of his own desire;534
(534) it is but a Revelation which is sent down to him331
(331) (O Messenger!) Tell people 'If you indeed love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.'332
(332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger. *283164
(3164) Surely Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He raised from among them a Messenger to recite to them His signs, and to purify them, and to teach them the Book and Wisdom. For before that they were in manifest error.
4113
(4113) (O Messenger!) But for Allah's favour and mercy upon you, a party of them had resolved to mislead you,yet they only misled them selves, and could not have harmed you in any way. *142 Allah revealed to you the Book and Wisdom, and He taught you what you knew not. Great indeed has been Allah's favour upon you.