You have asked many questions on this forum, now may I ask something Leoxyz?
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Peace David,
I have not verified code 19 in the quran. It may be a fact that it exist, but if it does not exist in the original arabic language(nabatean), then in my opininions we can't accept it as a miracle of the Quran. There are a lot of numerical miracles in the quran, but the whole code 19 thing seems to be exaggareted and even idolized.
I can tell you to study the fraudulent "mathematics" called numerology. This is the same type of false mathematics that the Greeks used to make up hidden codes for their idols names and dimensions (hence the word "Gematria" that Edip appeals to, which like geometry originally refers to dimensions, in this case sacred dimensions of stone idols). The Jews later used numerology to invent hidden codes in their religious books. Even today Christians used the same nonsense to invent the Bible Code. As I said, I can tell you to study all this but if you want to get straight to the truth and have faith in the great reading then the only and most important thing you need to study is 7430-31.
In there, you will hear that "the counting of 19 is ONLY a "fitna"/trial/affliction". This is empirically verifiable truth. Who is counting 19 everywhere?
Peace,
Ayman
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Thank you Ayman, however if I may ask people, I could have responded to Yusha's comments in kind, but I want to avoid the kind of arguments that have spiralled in the past - although people may not see this right now, my simple question and simple answer session will have a point.
I just want Yusha to answer just one or two more questions uninterrupted without having to answer further refutations to some of the claims he's made from others. This does have a point, so please Yusha as much as it may be hard for you not to respond to what Ayman said, could you simply respond to my next couple of questions and you can refute as much as whatever anyone else says here promise! (My response is a few posts up)
Salam all
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Sure al Quraishi what is your next question?
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Anyways, Yusha just in case you find my reply hard to find (understandably ) here's what I said one more time
At first the sayings were obviously memorized by his companions, word for word. Than a few generations later it became in impending necessity to record these sayings on paper. So a group of highly righteous and pious people began the task of compiling the most authentic ahadeeth possible. They were the likes of Imam Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmizi, Nasai, and Ibn Maja to name a few. They interviewed people who had learned the hadith, and questioned about where they got their source, so they made a chain and ensured that the chain of narrators go back to the Holy Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) and his illustrious companions. So in a nutshell this is how they were recorded in text/book form.
How accurate are these narrations?
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How accurate are these narrations?
Well based on the vigorous research over centuries by first rate scholars who memorized these sayings and even the chain of their narrators and studying the meticulous details of those narrators' character, they set the standards to determine which sayings are strong and which are weak, not on the basis of its text or substance, but on the basis of the chain of narrators. Bukhari and Muslim were the foremost compilors of authentic sayings, their compilations are 100% authentic. The other ones are mostly authentic, but they contain a few weak and fabricated reports which have been identified. This is a science which I am not very familiar with because I am not a fluent Arabic speaker of Islamic historian, but this is what little I know on the subject.
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Right, this is the first step I want us to all logically agree on, that Hadith, is not 100% authentic and it can be proven not to be
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Number 1623
...I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.Sahih Al-Bukhari, At-Ta'rikh Al-Kabir, iii, 96
...Verily, I have left two precious things (thaqalayn) among you, one of which is greater than the other the Book of God and my `Itrah, my Ahl al?Bayt.These are two hadith, 'Sahih' (Authentic) of a saying of the prophet which were supposedly uttered at the same place at the same time, as you can see, they are different, which shows undoubtedly that even the 'most authentic' hadith is certainly not authentic.
Can we first agree on this same thing?
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which were supposedly uttered at the same place at the same time
What makes you think this is the case?
Sahih Al-Bukhari, At-Ta'rikh Al-Kabir, iii, 96
...Verily, I have left two precious things (thaqalayn) among you, one of which is greater than the other the Book of God and my `Itrah, my Ahl al?Bayt.Tarikh al Kabir is not part of the Sahih al Bukhari, it is basically an appendix of various sayings with a rating on them by Imam Bukhari.
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Peace "ayman",
You said amongst other stuff...Some would have even loved to change 7431 to say that the counting of 19 is a "miracle" and not a "trial/affliction", etc., etc... BUT THEY COULDN'T...
JK- Where does the Quran talk about the COUNT of 19 being a fitnah. Yes the number 19 is a trial/affliction/test for the disbeleivers AMONGST four other purposes one of which is to stregthen the faith of the believers which it did in my case, bro Edip's, Bahman's and many others. Moreover it is a trial/test for the likes of yourself and apparently your still failing. Looks like the prophecy was indeed fulfilled wasnt it? GOD Bless!
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Tarikh al Kabir is not part of the Sahih al Bukhari, it is basically an appendix of various sayings with a rating on them by Imam Bukhari.
Sorry, Al-Dhahabi wrong reference, however it is in Al-Bukhari - I'll get the other one, they ain't hard to find, I've read more of the 'ahlul Bayt' variety than the 'sunnah' variety.
What makes you think this is the case?
The numerous hadith (that differ) on this issue refer to the same event at the same time and place.
Please bear with me.