Socrates's Question
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Please read. A two-bit author is NOT going to change reality. Neither am I. As for the rational conclusion, you have already acknowledged that morals depend on perception, and to say otherwise is logically fallacious.
Did I say that?
If Perception B was majority opinion, then presumeably they had to adapt to something that made only Perception B stick around. Meaning, yes, it would be right, in those conditions (I can't imagine them, but it doesn't matter, pure speculation). If it was in this world, where A takes the lead, B would be completely ridiculous. But in the world of B, A is more ridiculous.
No! how can it be right just because more people believe in it? How do you define "right?"
No, not really. What if this mentally insane person could run an x-ray and see pink-elephant bones? Let's assume we are all in a "matrix" and some people are running on different parts of the "matrix". To those people, it is VERY real.
I will admit that reality depends on perception sort of. For example, if we are in fact in a matrix, this is our reality because this is the only thing we can percieve. But it's not really reality is it? If one of us was to break through the matrix, we would know the true reality.
Anyway, you moved onto majority consensus. Bringing in a second opinion, an animal's opinion. Let's assume that for every entity you bring on your side, there is an entity on the "loony" side that testifies to the loony side's perception.
What you are doing here is completely undermining science. 2+2=4, no matter how many people say otherwise. That is a verifiable fact that always is, regardless of how many people disagree with it.
Do you agree that there is ONE true reality?That can, will, and has already been programmed out. Look at a few torture victims, look at the victims of CIA experimentation (one prolific experiment involving children, I think). There was a documentary a while back on people born, lived, married, had children, died - what was their affliction? They were literally without the ability to love, empathise, sympathise or socialise in any way that needed those things. One of them had some form of disease that took it away, or maybe a hard impact to the brain, I forgot. The fact remains that something disturbed the arrangement in his head, and that was completely removed. By now, everyone surely has heard of Phineas Gage, who was tapping dynamite in a railway when a pole went through his head, disturbed the arrangement, and transformed him into an aggressive, moral-lacking beast.
Yes, it got programmed out only because the structure of their brains changed. They are not "human" anymore, because physically they work differently.
They didn't develop a new moral system based on perception, they lost the ability to be moral because of a physical change in their bodies.
Your position would only be proven if you could TEACH a person to be amoral. We all have the ability to empathize, just like we all have the ability to talk, and I believe it is this ability which allows us to be moral. If you take that part of the brain that enables empathy, you lose that ability.
The examples you gave do not support your position.Actually, it is. An idea has no basis in reality. An idea, again, is the arrangement of a zillion atoms in your brain. A word, is the arrangement of a zillion atoms in your brain. And so on. Shooting someone in the head puts an end to that "morality" by... moving a zillion atoms in the brain. The fact remains that a person ends when that arrangement is disturbed too much. Abstraction layer, keep that in mind. It makes morality part of perception and not "absolute". It puts morality into the hands of the creator/programmer. Meaning, without "God", there is no morality. THE God, in the Quranic sense, defined by his attributes, not "God" as in the being that claims to be talking from many religious books (if you can understand that).
An idea is real...again, it doesn't matter if it is a zillion atoms in your brain. The electric impulses from your neurons arranged in a certain way what we call an "idea." It is real!
You can end that idea by changing the arrangment. I don't understand how that makes it part of "perception?"I would say the creator creates reality, and morality is part of that. It is part of our human psychology. It is part of what makes us human.
But anyway, do you think morality is something subjective or is it objective? I think morality is the same for everyone. And I guess you believe morality is different for every individual?
Exactly, he believes freedom of will exists by the development of the ability to change/learn. We already have this in computers (chess computers are a good example). Shame, however, that our author was preceded by the Quran 1400 years ago (see 853). Now, perception can be described as your arrangement of a zillion x zillion atoms, morality can be again, described that. Programming is how that arrangement comes by, think of the natural conditions needed to get Perception B above, will it be anything like this world now? The Quran's definition of "God" is immaculate. People are changed by natural conditions, God is described as the one who changes natural conditions on many occasions (see the verses on 'Ad for instance).
Okay, I agree that morality depends on our ability to learn. I think that morality, language, and free-will are similar. We all have the potential for it, due to our genetic make-up. We can all be moral, we can all talk, and we can all make free choices, but that doesn't mean all of us do. A child needs to learn how to talk, and we need constant practice to keep up our skill. Similarly, we all have the ability to be moral, but it needs to be brought out...it can be supressed, even without physical damage, but you can't completely take it away.
and can you elaborate a little on "morality depends upon the creator/programmer?" I'm afraid I haven't yet grasped what you're trying to say there.
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peace to all,
yes lobster, you can clearly see it cant you, just as you can see the clouds and the sun, they exist dont they, can you prove my pink elephants dont exist?
Kurt
peace
You're saying it like it's a bad thing! I'm not really trying to disprove the existence of god in this thread...I'm just trying to find a place for god in reality.
I haven't, and will not in the future, give up a chance to question the existence of God. You shouldn't either. -
Is something right because the Gods command it, or do the Gods command something because it is right?
The former is correct something is right because God commands it. There is no morality beside the standard in God, or to put it in another way, it is pure blasphemy and rejection of God's supremacy to refer to Him based on an external standard of morality that exists outside of Him.
The Holy Quran says
Then are men returned unto Allah, their protector, the (only) Reality Is not His the command? and He is the swiftest in taking account (662)
The sufis have not only used this verse to show that Allah alone is the only Reality, and there is no reality in His absence, but that he is Al-Haq (The Truth). If Allah is the Truth, than He is the standard of Truth, not simply the God who acts in accordance with Truth, but He is in fact the Manifestation of Truth.
Similarly, there is no concept of peace outside of the standard in Allah. Allah is not the God who is peaceful, but Allah is the very Manifestation, Source and Definition of Peace (As-Salaam)
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god; the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme Glory to Allah. (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him. (al-Hashr 5923)
So according to my understanding of the Holy Quran, morality and goodness are in God, and He is the definition of them, not that these are outside of Him and that He acts accordingly and is therefore worthy of our worship (God forbid). The reason God is worthy of our worship is simply by virtue of being God, there is no other reason. The real essence of shirk (idolatry) is to not only worship false gods, but also to judge God by another standard
Say "Shall I seek for Judge other than Allah - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt (al-Anam 6114)
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I didn't read through all the posts in the thread, so I apologize if someone already mentioned this. We're told that Good and Evil are different things, but are they really? They are two poles of the same magnet, Good needs evil to exist, just as the opposite is true. The fun in life is that it appears that Evil is going to always overtake the Good, this is the drama, but this will never happen. Just as Chaos doesn't overtake Order, and Nothing doesn't overtake Something, so too, evil doesn't overtake Good. They are just opposite ends of the same thing. If you didn't hear silence in between sounds, you would never hear music, and if you didn't experience death, you wouldn't know what life is.
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Yusha, so whatever god tells you to do is right?
but that raises a problem, doesn't it?
If you're criteria of judging right or wrong and truth is based on what god says, then what do you do if I tell you "god says you should kill your friends right now." How do you judge that?
There are so many "voices" of god, so many different scriptures all saying different things...which one is true? and which commands are right?and if you decide right and wrong based on what god says, then that means you only do right because god told you to. The only reason you aren't killing everyone you don't like, then, is because god said killing is wrong.
and if god decides morality, then can't god just change morality whenever god wants? what if the next generations of humans are commanded to "kill thy neighbors?"
did god just pick and choose which deeds to make wrong and which deeds to make right? or was their a reason? does god know what he's doing?
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Yusha, so whatever god tells you to do is right?
Yes.
If you're criteria of judging right or wrong and truth is based on what god says, then what do you do if I tell you "god says you should kill your friends right now." How do you judge that?
What kind of question is this? First of all I have already told you God is the Truth (Al-Haq) which means he doesn't lie, and in the Holy Quran He has revealed that this is the final law, so youre question doesn't make any sense. I follow what God says directly in His revealed scripture, not what you claim to say about Him without any reason.
There are so many "voices" of god, so many different scriptures all saying different things...which one is true? and which commands are right?
There is only one voice of God, and the Holy Quran has superceded and abrogated all the old scriptures.
and if you decide right and wrong based on what god says, then that means you only do right because god told you to. The only reason you aren't killing everyone you don't like, then, is because god said killing is wrong.
Exactly, I don't kill because God doesn't like that. That should be sufficient reason not to kill. And to demonstrate this point, the Holy Quran has mentioned that God commanded Abraham (alaihi salaam) to sacrifice his son, and Abraham (alaihi salaam) obeyed unquestionably, because this came from God. This story demonstrates that there is no moral standard outside of God by which we can judge. God is the moral standard.
and if god decides morality, then can't god just change morality whenever god wants? what if the next generations of humans are commanded to "kill thy neighbors?"
I have already mentioned that God does not lie, and never fails in His promise
for Allah never fails in His promise (al-Imran 39)
And the promise of Allah is that Islam is completed and so are the commandments, there will be no next generation with a new covenant. This is the final dispensation until the day of judgment.
did god just pick and choose which deeds to make wrong and which deeds to make right? or was their a reason? does god know what he's doing?
God is the Most Wise (Al-Hakeem), and He knows what we know not. We should not speculate or judge Him.
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Navid, the question here is, what is "immoral?"
Yusha is saying that if god commands us to kill people, killing people becomes right.Your statement assumes that morality and god are different. If god makes morality, how can god command people to do "immoral" things?
Yusha, just one question, how do you know the quran is telling the truth?
I mean, if I wrote a book that said "this scripture abrogates all others and is the true voice of god, and god commands Yusha to commit suicide this instant" would you believe it? -
Navid, the question here is, what is "immoral?"
Yusha is saying that if god commands us to kill people, killing people becomes right.He says that because he believes God is the moral standard. Saying "What if God told you do something immoral?" is contradictory. That is, if you believe as Yusha believes. God is the truth, the moral standard.
Your statement assumes that morality and god are different. If god makes morality, how can god command people to do "immoral" things?
No, you are assuming that. I am assuming they are the same. Hence "God is the moral standard." That's why I put "immoral" in quotes.
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peace Navid, everyone
He says that because he believes God is the moral standard. Saying "What if God told you do something immoral?" is contradictory. That is, if you believe as Yusha believes. God is the truth, the moral standard.
Exactly. So I am right in saying that if God commands us to kill others for fun, that will be "good." If God was a liar, then lying would be good. If you believe as Yusha believes, there is no reason for things being right or wrong except that god randomly chose them that way.
My argument is that...
killing people is wrong because of the way reality is. Killing others takes away their life, and causes grief and suffering for many others. That's why it's wrong.
So morality is determined by nature.
God has created reality, and that reality determines morality.
God can only change morality if God changes reality itself.
Right now, shooting people in the face is wrong (it causes harm), but if God had created us with bullet-proof faces, shooting people in the face wouldn't harm them, so it wouldn't be wrong (in normal circumstances).
God cannot say shooting people in the face is good even if it causes harm, because harm is bad. Get it?And there are people who do not follow any religion. There are people who do not believe in God.
How do these people understand morality then? Are good athiests believers then?If you think God creates morality, then you have to admit that God is arbitrary...he can do whatever the hell he wants, and whatever he does is GOOD because he defines morality. There is no reason for right or wrong, it just is the way it is because god decided it that way.
In a way god does create morality because god has created reality, but the point is that the relationship between god and morality is not direct.
And here God has free-will. If you believe in a different type of god this doesn't apply to you at all.I believe the Quran thinks god and morality are seperate. (It's right again!)
Why? Because the Quran praises god. There are a lot of good quality attributed to god in the quran. "Most merciful and most gracious" would mean absolutely nothing if god decided what was good and bad. If god was evil and a liar, we'd praise him with "the most evil, the most dishonest" and those would be considered good qualities.
So god's goodness doesn't mean anything at all.Now Yusha's answer to all of my (excellent) questions was "Allah never breaks his promise and the quran is the last covanent or whatever" which is a statement he can't ever prove.
To think that the one God (if you assume He exists) would arbitrarily command people do "immoral" things doesn't really make sense. As Yusha said, He is the moral standard.
Okay, so let me ask you this
Why doesn't it make sense? -
Yusha, just one question, how do you know the quran is telling the truth?
The Holy Quran is the proven word of Allah. First of all it fulfils the prophecies of the former scriptures. Second of all, Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) is a true Prophet of Allah, and his character, his miracles, his life, are all a testament to his truthfulness. The Holy Quran has issued a challenge to all its detractors to produce even a chapter like it, and to date this has never been achieved, and never will be. There are so many reasons why the Holy Quran is the divine word of Allah and why I believe it to be the truth, but essentially, its teachings give you life and the Muslim community is a testament to the teachings of the Holy Quran. Even though we are nothing compared to the earlier generations of Muslims, yet this community out of all other faith communities is the most dynamic and devoted to God. This means the Holy Quran has to be a special book like no other.
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peace Navid, everyoneExactly. So I am right in saying that if God commands us to kill others for fun, that will be "good." If God was a liar, then lying would be good. If you believe as Yusha believes, there is no reason for things being right or wrong except that god randomly chose them that way.
Personally, I don't believe God would randomly change certain laws and morals He has already established. I am saying because He is the moral standard and (I believe) He has already commanded us not to kill for no reason, He wouldn't arbitrarily tell us to kill others for fun.
My argument is that...
killing people is wrong because of the way reality is. Killing others takes away their life, and causes grief and suffering for many others. That's why it's wrong.
So morality is determined by nature.
God has created reality, and that reality determines morality.
God can only change morality if God changes reality itself.
Right now, shooting people in the face is wrong (it causes harm), but if God had created us with bullet-proof faces, shooting people in the face wouldn't harm them, so it wouldn't be wrong (in normal circumstances).
God cannot say shooting people in the face is good even if it causes harm, because harm is bad. Get it?If I'm understanding you correctly, then I agree. That didn't seem like what you were saying before.
And there are people who do not follow any religion. There are people who do not believe in God.
How do these people understand morality then? Are good athiests believers then?If you think God creates morality, then you have to admit that God is arbitrary...he can do whatever the hell he wants, and whatever he does is GOOD because he defines morality. There is no reason for right or wrong, it just is the way it is because god decided it that way.
God does create morality as well as define it. Based on how He created the universe and the laws therein, there are certain things that He deems right/wrong. I don't see why this means God has to be arbitrary.
In a way god does create morality because god has created reality, but the point is that the relationship between god and morality is not direct.
And here God has free-will. If you believe in a different type of god this doesn't apply to you at all.Yes, God does create reality, and therefore as a component of that, morality.
Could you elaborate on the rest?
I believe the Quran thinks god and morality are seperate. (It's right again!)
Why? Because the Quran praises god. There are a lot of good quality attributed to god in the quran. "Most merciful and most gracious" would mean absolutely nothing if god decided what was good and bad. If god was evil and a liar, we'd praise him with "the most evil, the most dishonest" and those would be considered good qualities.
So god's goodness doesn't mean anything at all.I'm still not understanding. You're saying because the quran praises God with "good" attributes, this means that God and morality are separate?
In another universe, where the words "the most evil, the most dishonest" had the connotations of something good, then yes they would be considered good qualities. I really don't see how this has any relevance. It seems to be going in circles. Perhaps I am not thinking thoroughly?
Okay, so let me ask you this
Why doesn't it make sense?Look above, I believe God has established certain morals in this universe that are unchangeable.
Peace
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Personally, I don't believe God would randomly change certain laws and morals He has already established. I am saying because He is the moral standard and (I believe) He has already commanded us not to kill for no reason, He wouldn't arbitrarily tell us to kill others for fun.
Exactly. There's a reason. That's pretty much all I'm saying.
The question was Does God command something because it is right, or is something right because God commanded it?The latter part (called Divine Command theory) obviously implies that there god's commands are arbitrary, because the only reason something is right is because god commanded it.
The former implies that there is a reason why something is right. God commanded a certain action because it was already right. Which means that morality exists independent of God.God does create morality as well as define it. Based on how He created the universe and the laws therein, there are certain things that He deems right/wrong. I don't see why this means God has to be arbitrary.
Yes, god has created reality and our morality is based on that reality. But the point is that morality has to agree with reality. You can never make hurting others right. But those who believe in divine command believe that right and wrong depends on what god commanded.
Let's take religious rituals for instance, most people want to know why it is right to perform them and why it is wrong not to. Why is it wrong to eat pork? There always has to be a reason.
To us it doesn't make sense if god said "eating pork is wrong just because I said so."I would say most people, including Yusha, don't really believe in Divine Command because we keep discussing all the reasons why certain things are wrong in the quran. If all of us just believed that whatever god commands is right, then we wouldn't have 30 page discussion on gay marriage.
Look above, I believe God has established certain morals in this universe that are unchangeable.
Okay. That's sort of what Yusha said too. But I don't think it's relevant to what Socrates was asking.
I think the point of the question really was is there a reason why something is right and another thing is wrong, or is it just based on the will of god?
Another problem with believing in the latter is that how do you figure out what the will of god is?
With the former, you can easily figure out morality based on your observations of reality. With the latter, you are forced to search for the true voice of god, which is basically finding the true religious scripture and it's true interpretation and translation...which as you can see is almost impossible.
Because morality and religion are seperate, we can continue doing good deeds without having to solve all the complicated religious dilemmas.I'm still not understanding. You're saying because the quran praises God with "good" attributes, this means that God and morality are separate?
In another universe, where the words "the most evil, the most dishonest" had the connotations of something good, then yes they would be considered good qualities. I really don't see how this has any relevance. It seems to be going in circles. Perhaps I am not thinking thoroughly?
Well, this was just a trivial part of my argument, I think you probably agree with what I've said. I think we're just confused over terminology.
Anyway, my point was that the quran is telling us to serve/worship god because god is good. It tells us that god is merciful, gracious etc etc and he is worthy of our service. Would we follow someone who is a liar and a cheat?
But if we believe that god decides what's good, then even if god was a liar and a cheat, that would be considered "good." Get it? I have to go now i'll explain this part later if needed.
Peace! -
Exactly. There's a reason. That's pretty much all I'm saying.
The question was Does God command something because it is right, or is something right because God commanded it?The latter part (called Divine Command theory) obviously implies that there god's commands are arbitrary, because the only reason something is right is because god commanded it.
The former implies that there is a reason why something is right. God commanded a certain action because it was already right. Which means that morality exists independent of God.This is a bit circular. Both the former and latter are intertwined. Saying "God commanded a certain action because it was already right" is assuming that God did not create the universe and came into existence after everything was established, in which case you are right. However, if you believe that God is the creator of all, this does not make sense. God is the source of all, including what is right, and therefore commands that.
Yes, god has created reality and our morality is based on that reality. But the point is that morality has to agree with reality. You can never make hurting others right. But those who believe in divine command believe that right and wrong depends on what god commanded.
Let's take religious rituals for instance, most people want to know why it is right to perform them and why it is wrong not to. Why is it wrong to eat pork? There always has to be a reason.
To us it doesn't make sense if god said "eating pork is wrong just because I said so."I would say most people, including Yusha, don't really believe in Divine Command because we keep discussing all the reasons why certain things are wrong in the quran. If all of us just believed that whatever god commands is right, then we wouldn't have 30 page discussion on gay marriage.
Again, because God has created certain things right (as a result of knowing those things cause harm, loss, people to turn backwards), He obviously commands those things that are right (which came from Him, as mentioned). I believe that there is no such thing as God making things wrong for no reason. This doesn't make sense lined up with God as per the quran. However, if Socrates is referring to a god that is not outside of this universe, then it is a good question.
Okay. That's sort of what Yusha said too. But I don't think it's relevant to what Socrates was asking.
I think the point of the question really was is there a reason why something is right and another thing is wrong, or is it just based on the will of god?
Another problem with believing in the latter is that how do you figure out what the will of god is?
With the former, you can easily figure out morality based on your observations of reality. With the latter, you are forced to search for the true voice of god, which is basically finding the true religious scripture and it's true interpretation and translation...which as you can see is almost impossible.
Because morality and religion are seperate, we can continue doing good deeds without having to solve all the complicated religious dilemmas.Look above.
Also, I don't think that is almost impossible.
Well, this was just a trivial part of my argument, I think you probably agree with what I've said. I think we're just confused over terminology.
Anyway, my point was that the quran is telling us to serve/worship god because god is good. It tells us that god is merciful, gracious etc etc and he is worthy of our service. Would we follow someone who is a liar and a cheat?
But if we believe that god decides what's good, then even if god was a liar and a cheat, that would be considered "good." Get it? I have to go now i'll explain this part later if needed.
Peace!I also think, for the most part, we agree.
Again, this goes back to my original argument. If God created a universe in which "lying" and "cheating" benefitted people and was good, then yes it would be considered good. I think what you're trying to get across is that simply because God does/is something, doesn't mean it's right, which I think is flawed (if you believe in the God as per the quran).
Interesting discussion, though.
Peace -
The Holy Quran is the proven word of Allah. First of all it fulfils the prophecies of the former scriptures. Second of all, Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) is a true Prophet of Allah, and his character, his miracles, his life, are all a testament to his truthfulness. The Holy Quran has issued a challenge to all its detractors to produce even a chapter like it, and to date this has never been achieved, and never will be. There are so many reasons why the Holy Quran is the divine word of Allah and why I believe it to be the truth, but essentially, its teachings give you life and the Muslim community is a testament to the teachings of the Holy Quran. Even though we are nothing compared to the earlier generations of Muslims, yet this community out of all other faith communities is the most dynamic and devoted to God. This means the Holy Quran has to be a special book like no other.
yeah voodoo -
Again, this goes back to my original argument. If God created a universe in which "lying" and "cheating" benefitted people and was good, then yes it would be considered good. I think what you're trying to get across is that simply because God does/is something, doesn't mean it's right, which I think is flawed (if you believe in the God as per the quran).
Yes. That's my point, to change morality, god would have to change reality itself.
In our current reality, lying leads to harm, thus it is wrong. But if God changes reality, lying might lead to good, in which case it would be the right thing to do.
I'm not saying god came into existence after the universe. Let's take the quran to be the voice of god. Obviously the quran came thousands of years after morality was established. So the quran isn't creating right and wrong, it is only pointing the way.
God has already created reality. The reality is the same for everyone, and it's unchanging. Religious laws are never the same for everyone, and they are always changing. That is the key point.
If you think religion creates morality, then...you have problems to deal with.I think what you're trying to get across is that simply because God does/is something, doesn't mean it's right, which I think is flawed (if you believe in the God as per the quran)
No that's not really what I said. Just see above, I've tried to explain it in a different way.
Maybe we're confusing "god" and "religion?"
in my original post, I said "here, god = quran." Basically, by god I mean religion/religious scriptures because they claim to be the voice of god.Okay, just answer this,
do you agree that if something is right or wrong, there is a reason behind it? -
Okay, then. Someone finally admits to agreeing with me.
I think most other members already agree with me too. This question is kind of like when in math you know the answer but you don't know how you got it. Or like when people can talk perfectly in a language but cannot explain the grammar rules. You understand it intuitively but you can't make it precise.
I think most people on this forum (and this is based on all the debating I've seen) probably agree with me. If they believed in the Divine Command theory, we wouldn't have this forum. We'd all accept that whatever god wills is right and so there's no point in asking "why" because there is no answer.peace
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Okay, then. Someone finally admits to agreeing with me.
I think most other members already agree with me too. This question is kind of like when in math you know the answer but you don't know how you got it. Or like when people can talk perfectly in a language but cannot explain the grammar rules. You understand it intuitively but you can't make it precise.
I think most people on this forum (and this is based on all the debating I've seen) probably agree with me. If they believed in the Divine Command theory, we wouldn't have this forum. We'd all accept that whatever god wills is right and so there's no point in asking "why" because there is no answer.peace
Agreed. I think the question is just a little vague (perhaps in the context of FM). As you said, I (and I would assume a lot of us here) don't believe in a god that arbitrarily decides what is good for no reason.
Peace