Socrates's Question
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peace Navid, everyone
He says that because he believes God is the moral standard. Saying "What if God told you do something immoral?" is contradictory. That is, if you believe as Yusha believes. God is the truth, the moral standard.
Exactly. So I am right in saying that if God commands us to kill others for fun, that will be "good." If God was a liar, then lying would be good. If you believe as Yusha believes, there is no reason for things being right or wrong except that god randomly chose them that way.
My argument is that...
killing people is wrong because of the way reality is. Killing others takes away their life, and causes grief and suffering for many others. That's why it's wrong.
So morality is determined by nature.
God has created reality, and that reality determines morality.
God can only change morality if God changes reality itself.
Right now, shooting people in the face is wrong (it causes harm), but if God had created us with bullet-proof faces, shooting people in the face wouldn't harm them, so it wouldn't be wrong (in normal circumstances).
God cannot say shooting people in the face is good even if it causes harm, because harm is bad. Get it?And there are people who do not follow any religion. There are people who do not believe in God.
How do these people understand morality then? Are good athiests believers then?If you think God creates morality, then you have to admit that God is arbitrary...he can do whatever the hell he wants, and whatever he does is GOOD because he defines morality. There is no reason for right or wrong, it just is the way it is because god decided it that way.
In a way god does create morality because god has created reality, but the point is that the relationship between god and morality is not direct.
And here God has free-will. If you believe in a different type of god this doesn't apply to you at all.I believe the Quran thinks god and morality are seperate. (It's right again!)
Why? Because the Quran praises god. There are a lot of good quality attributed to god in the quran. "Most merciful and most gracious" would mean absolutely nothing if god decided what was good and bad. If god was evil and a liar, we'd praise him with "the most evil, the most dishonest" and those would be considered good qualities.
So god's goodness doesn't mean anything at all.Now Yusha's answer to all of my (excellent) questions was "Allah never breaks his promise and the quran is the last covanent or whatever" which is a statement he can't ever prove.
To think that the one God (if you assume He exists) would arbitrarily command people do "immoral" things doesn't really make sense. As Yusha said, He is the moral standard.
Okay, so let me ask you this
Why doesn't it make sense? -
Yusha, just one question, how do you know the quran is telling the truth?
The Holy Quran is the proven word of Allah. First of all it fulfils the prophecies of the former scriptures. Second of all, Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) is a true Prophet of Allah, and his character, his miracles, his life, are all a testament to his truthfulness. The Holy Quran has issued a challenge to all its detractors to produce even a chapter like it, and to date this has never been achieved, and never will be. There are so many reasons why the Holy Quran is the divine word of Allah and why I believe it to be the truth, but essentially, its teachings give you life and the Muslim community is a testament to the teachings of the Holy Quran. Even though we are nothing compared to the earlier generations of Muslims, yet this community out of all other faith communities is the most dynamic and devoted to God. This means the Holy Quran has to be a special book like no other.
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peace Navid, everyoneExactly. So I am right in saying that if God commands us to kill others for fun, that will be "good." If God was a liar, then lying would be good. If you believe as Yusha believes, there is no reason for things being right or wrong except that god randomly chose them that way.
Personally, I don't believe God would randomly change certain laws and morals He has already established. I am saying because He is the moral standard and (I believe) He has already commanded us not to kill for no reason, He wouldn't arbitrarily tell us to kill others for fun.
My argument is that...
killing people is wrong because of the way reality is. Killing others takes away their life, and causes grief and suffering for many others. That's why it's wrong.
So morality is determined by nature.
God has created reality, and that reality determines morality.
God can only change morality if God changes reality itself.
Right now, shooting people in the face is wrong (it causes harm), but if God had created us with bullet-proof faces, shooting people in the face wouldn't harm them, so it wouldn't be wrong (in normal circumstances).
God cannot say shooting people in the face is good even if it causes harm, because harm is bad. Get it?If I'm understanding you correctly, then I agree. That didn't seem like what you were saying before.
And there are people who do not follow any religion. There are people who do not believe in God.
How do these people understand morality then? Are good athiests believers then?If you think God creates morality, then you have to admit that God is arbitrary...he can do whatever the hell he wants, and whatever he does is GOOD because he defines morality. There is no reason for right or wrong, it just is the way it is because god decided it that way.
God does create morality as well as define it. Based on how He created the universe and the laws therein, there are certain things that He deems right/wrong. I don't see why this means God has to be arbitrary.
In a way god does create morality because god has created reality, but the point is that the relationship between god and morality is not direct.
And here God has free-will. If you believe in a different type of god this doesn't apply to you at all.Yes, God does create reality, and therefore as a component of that, morality.
Could you elaborate on the rest?
I believe the Quran thinks god and morality are seperate. (It's right again!)
Why? Because the Quran praises god. There are a lot of good quality attributed to god in the quran. "Most merciful and most gracious" would mean absolutely nothing if god decided what was good and bad. If god was evil and a liar, we'd praise him with "the most evil, the most dishonest" and those would be considered good qualities.
So god's goodness doesn't mean anything at all.I'm still not understanding. You're saying because the quran praises God with "good" attributes, this means that God and morality are separate?
In another universe, where the words "the most evil, the most dishonest" had the connotations of something good, then yes they would be considered good qualities. I really don't see how this has any relevance. It seems to be going in circles. Perhaps I am not thinking thoroughly?
Okay, so let me ask you this
Why doesn't it make sense?Look above, I believe God has established certain morals in this universe that are unchangeable.
Peace
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Personally, I don't believe God would randomly change certain laws and morals He has already established. I am saying because He is the moral standard and (I believe) He has already commanded us not to kill for no reason, He wouldn't arbitrarily tell us to kill others for fun.
Exactly. There's a reason. That's pretty much all I'm saying.
The question was Does God command something because it is right, or is something right because God commanded it?The latter part (called Divine Command theory) obviously implies that there god's commands are arbitrary, because the only reason something is right is because god commanded it.
The former implies that there is a reason why something is right. God commanded a certain action because it was already right. Which means that morality exists independent of God.God does create morality as well as define it. Based on how He created the universe and the laws therein, there are certain things that He deems right/wrong. I don't see why this means God has to be arbitrary.
Yes, god has created reality and our morality is based on that reality. But the point is that morality has to agree with reality. You can never make hurting others right. But those who believe in divine command believe that right and wrong depends on what god commanded.
Let's take religious rituals for instance, most people want to know why it is right to perform them and why it is wrong not to. Why is it wrong to eat pork? There always has to be a reason.
To us it doesn't make sense if god said "eating pork is wrong just because I said so."I would say most people, including Yusha, don't really believe in Divine Command because we keep discussing all the reasons why certain things are wrong in the quran. If all of us just believed that whatever god commands is right, then we wouldn't have 30 page discussion on gay marriage.
Look above, I believe God has established certain morals in this universe that are unchangeable.
Okay. That's sort of what Yusha said too. But I don't think it's relevant to what Socrates was asking.
I think the point of the question really was is there a reason why something is right and another thing is wrong, or is it just based on the will of god?
Another problem with believing in the latter is that how do you figure out what the will of god is?
With the former, you can easily figure out morality based on your observations of reality. With the latter, you are forced to search for the true voice of god, which is basically finding the true religious scripture and it's true interpretation and translation...which as you can see is almost impossible.
Because morality and religion are seperate, we can continue doing good deeds without having to solve all the complicated religious dilemmas.I'm still not understanding. You're saying because the quran praises God with "good" attributes, this means that God and morality are separate?
In another universe, where the words "the most evil, the most dishonest" had the connotations of something good, then yes they would be considered good qualities. I really don't see how this has any relevance. It seems to be going in circles. Perhaps I am not thinking thoroughly?
Well, this was just a trivial part of my argument, I think you probably agree with what I've said. I think we're just confused over terminology.
Anyway, my point was that the quran is telling us to serve/worship god because god is good. It tells us that god is merciful, gracious etc etc and he is worthy of our service. Would we follow someone who is a liar and a cheat?
But if we believe that god decides what's good, then even if god was a liar and a cheat, that would be considered "good." Get it? I have to go now i'll explain this part later if needed.
Peace! -
Exactly. There's a reason. That's pretty much all I'm saying.
The question was Does God command something because it is right, or is something right because God commanded it?The latter part (called Divine Command theory) obviously implies that there god's commands are arbitrary, because the only reason something is right is because god commanded it.
The former implies that there is a reason why something is right. God commanded a certain action because it was already right. Which means that morality exists independent of God.This is a bit circular. Both the former and latter are intertwined. Saying "God commanded a certain action because it was already right" is assuming that God did not create the universe and came into existence after everything was established, in which case you are right. However, if you believe that God is the creator of all, this does not make sense. God is the source of all, including what is right, and therefore commands that.
Yes, god has created reality and our morality is based on that reality. But the point is that morality has to agree with reality. You can never make hurting others right. But those who believe in divine command believe that right and wrong depends on what god commanded.
Let's take religious rituals for instance, most people want to know why it is right to perform them and why it is wrong not to. Why is it wrong to eat pork? There always has to be a reason.
To us it doesn't make sense if god said "eating pork is wrong just because I said so."I would say most people, including Yusha, don't really believe in Divine Command because we keep discussing all the reasons why certain things are wrong in the quran. If all of us just believed that whatever god commands is right, then we wouldn't have 30 page discussion on gay marriage.
Again, because God has created certain things right (as a result of knowing those things cause harm, loss, people to turn backwards), He obviously commands those things that are right (which came from Him, as mentioned). I believe that there is no such thing as God making things wrong for no reason. This doesn't make sense lined up with God as per the quran. However, if Socrates is referring to a god that is not outside of this universe, then it is a good question.
Okay. That's sort of what Yusha said too. But I don't think it's relevant to what Socrates was asking.
I think the point of the question really was is there a reason why something is right and another thing is wrong, or is it just based on the will of god?
Another problem with believing in the latter is that how do you figure out what the will of god is?
With the former, you can easily figure out morality based on your observations of reality. With the latter, you are forced to search for the true voice of god, which is basically finding the true religious scripture and it's true interpretation and translation...which as you can see is almost impossible.
Because morality and religion are seperate, we can continue doing good deeds without having to solve all the complicated religious dilemmas.Look above.
Also, I don't think that is almost impossible.
Well, this was just a trivial part of my argument, I think you probably agree with what I've said. I think we're just confused over terminology.
Anyway, my point was that the quran is telling us to serve/worship god because god is good. It tells us that god is merciful, gracious etc etc and he is worthy of our service. Would we follow someone who is a liar and a cheat?
But if we believe that god decides what's good, then even if god was a liar and a cheat, that would be considered "good." Get it? I have to go now i'll explain this part later if needed.
Peace!I also think, for the most part, we agree.
Again, this goes back to my original argument. If God created a universe in which "lying" and "cheating" benefitted people and was good, then yes it would be considered good. I think what you're trying to get across is that simply because God does/is something, doesn't mean it's right, which I think is flawed (if you believe in the God as per the quran).
Interesting discussion, though.
Peace -
The Holy Quran is the proven word of Allah. First of all it fulfils the prophecies of the former scriptures. Second of all, Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) is a true Prophet of Allah, and his character, his miracles, his life, are all a testament to his truthfulness. The Holy Quran has issued a challenge to all its detractors to produce even a chapter like it, and to date this has never been achieved, and never will be. There are so many reasons why the Holy Quran is the divine word of Allah and why I believe it to be the truth, but essentially, its teachings give you life and the Muslim community is a testament to the teachings of the Holy Quran. Even though we are nothing compared to the earlier generations of Muslims, yet this community out of all other faith communities is the most dynamic and devoted to God. This means the Holy Quran has to be a special book like no other.
yeah voodoo -
Again, this goes back to my original argument. If God created a universe in which "lying" and "cheating" benefitted people and was good, then yes it would be considered good. I think what you're trying to get across is that simply because God does/is something, doesn't mean it's right, which I think is flawed (if you believe in the God as per the quran).
Yes. That's my point, to change morality, god would have to change reality itself.
In our current reality, lying leads to harm, thus it is wrong. But if God changes reality, lying might lead to good, in which case it would be the right thing to do.
I'm not saying god came into existence after the universe. Let's take the quran to be the voice of god. Obviously the quran came thousands of years after morality was established. So the quran isn't creating right and wrong, it is only pointing the way.
God has already created reality. The reality is the same for everyone, and it's unchanging. Religious laws are never the same for everyone, and they are always changing. That is the key point.
If you think religion creates morality, then...you have problems to deal with.I think what you're trying to get across is that simply because God does/is something, doesn't mean it's right, which I think is flawed (if you believe in the God as per the quran)
No that's not really what I said. Just see above, I've tried to explain it in a different way.
Maybe we're confusing "god" and "religion?"
in my original post, I said "here, god = quran." Basically, by god I mean religion/religious scriptures because they claim to be the voice of god.Okay, just answer this,
do you agree that if something is right or wrong, there is a reason behind it? -
Okay, then. Someone finally admits to agreeing with me.
I think most other members already agree with me too. This question is kind of like when in math you know the answer but you don't know how you got it. Or like when people can talk perfectly in a language but cannot explain the grammar rules. You understand it intuitively but you can't make it precise.
I think most people on this forum (and this is based on all the debating I've seen) probably agree with me. If they believed in the Divine Command theory, we wouldn't have this forum. We'd all accept that whatever god wills is right and so there's no point in asking "why" because there is no answer.peace
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Okay, then. Someone finally admits to agreeing with me.
I think most other members already agree with me too. This question is kind of like when in math you know the answer but you don't know how you got it. Or like when people can talk perfectly in a language but cannot explain the grammar rules. You understand it intuitively but you can't make it precise.
I think most people on this forum (and this is based on all the debating I've seen) probably agree with me. If they believed in the Divine Command theory, we wouldn't have this forum. We'd all accept that whatever god wills is right and so there's no point in asking "why" because there is no answer.peace
Agreed. I think the question is just a little vague (perhaps in the context of FM). As you said, I (and I would assume a lot of us here) don't believe in a god that arbitrarily decides what is good for no reason.
Peace