Ramadan is here. How many will fast and how will you spend your time?

zenje

Peace Ayman and all,

It's a pity, I tried to search for that thread where I had that discussion with you and Wakas, but I got an error message. I think it's one of those old threads that just dissappeared. I wasn't convinced at the time, I remember that much, but I don't remember what points I had raised that made me think otherwise. (must be getting old)

But , sun set is described as Ghoroob ul shams.

could you eloborate on above please? we need another debate to clarify this issue.

siki

I agree with siki on this point. Let's clarify, perhaps on another thread?

peace

seekingtruth

salam all

i will be fasting the tradition timing this yr due to the fact i am still a beginner in learning the quran and require alot more information regarding this issue before can come to a firm conclusion. god willing.

can anyone help me by explaining why the traditional timing is incorrect and the history behind how the method was estabilished i have trouble finding it, is there any historical evidence that shows that the prophet fasted during the hottest month.

thanks.

ayman

Peace Siki and Zenje,

But , sun set is described as Ghoroob ul shams.
could you eloborate on above please? we need another debate to clarify this issue.

It is very simple. In English, we have sun set (sun setting through the horizon), twilight (period between sunset and night where there is some light) and then night (the sky is completely dark).

In the great reading, we hear

This is with that the god merges the night in the daylight and merges the daylight in the night and the god is hearer, seer.

022.061
YUSUFALI That is because Allah merges night into day, and He merges day into night, and verily it is Allah Who hears and sees (all things).
PICKTHAL That is because Allah maketh the night to pass into the day and maketh the day to pass into the night, and because Allah is Hearer, Seer.
SHAKIR That is because Allah causes the night to enter into the day and causes the day to enter into the night, and because Allah is Hearing, Seeing.
KHALIFA It is a fact that GOD merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and that GOD is Hearer, Seer.

The only way that "night" can be merged into daylight and daylight can be merged into "night" is if "night" starts at sunset and ends after daybreak. So what we call in Arabic "layl" is actually equivalent to what is in English "twilight-night-twilight".

This is why when the god wants to point out the dark part of the "layl", he uses the term "ghasak al-layl" (the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight", i.e. the middle part that we call in English "night&quot

Persist in the learning connection at the rubbing of the sun (i.e. at sunset) until the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight" and the reading at daybreak, indeed the reading at daybreak is witnessed.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Seekingtruth,

i will be fasting the tradition timing this yr due to the fact i am still a beginner in learning the quran and require alot more information regarding this issue before can come to a firm conclusion. god willing.
can anyone help me by explaining why the traditional timing is incorrect and the history behind how the method was estabilished i have trouble finding it, is there any historical evidence that shows that the prophet fasted during the hottest month.

It is good to study and ponder before taking action. You are definitely asking the right questions. You can look at history and spend years studying the subject. However, the simple and concise answers can all be found in the great reading

Why the traditional timing is incorrect

Tradition creates contradictions in the great reading. In 2184 we hear that the abstinence is for a few days/"ayam ma3doodat" (10 days or less) and then according to tradition 2185 is supposed to be saying to abstain for a whole month! The only way that this contradiction can be resolved is if the word ?shahr? in 2185 doesn?t mean month.
Another contradiction is that in 2185 we hear about completing the count. If the traditional month is what is talked about then there is no counting action needed to complete it. According to tradition, you have to observe the moon, which is not counting. On the other hand, this is perfectly consistent with completing the count of a few days (10 days or less), which is reaching the maximum (10 days).
The traditional understanding ignores the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? in 2185 and assumes that it is meaningless. This word provides the most important information for the timing and yet it is completely ignored by traditionalists.

When you realize the above problems with the traditional understanding, the next step is to try to resolve them. When you are researching any meaning in any language, the first step is to look in the dictionary for the various meanings and then see if a particular meaning fits well in the context.

According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabic word ?ramadan? literally means ?scorching heat?. Like when you hear about ?scorching? coals, the word ?ramadan" invokes the imagery of ?heat? and ?reddish color?. Also, one of the meanings given for ?shahr? is ?full-moon? and this is the meaning that best agrees with its etymology and fits in the passage.

By seeing that the word ?ramadan" is not meaningless and finding the correct meaning for the expression ?shahr ramadan", all the above traditional contradictions are automatically resolved. Now we can see that the abstinence starts on the night of the scorching full-moon and is for the complete count of a few days (10 days) and this naturally resolves all the contradictions created by tradition.

So the next question is when does the scorching full-moon occur?

The hottest times of the year start after the summer solstice when the sun is at its highest point. The sun and moon are on opposite sides of the earth. So the first full-moon after the summer appears much lower on the horizon (and thus reddish in color) than all the other full-moons during the hottest time of the year. Therefore, this full-moon naturally fits best the description of a ?scorching (red hot) full-moon?.

For more information, please see

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

Peace,

Ayman

Navid

I missed the July 1st - July 10th fasting times. So I thought I might as well do the traditional way for this year. So breaking your fast at twilight is okay? Is the same true for in the morning?

Peace

siki

Peace Ayman

I went through your article, confused it is digestable, and seems like a good effort.

siki

zenje

Peace Navid,

I missed the July 1st - July 10th fasting times. So I thought I might as well do the traditional way for this year. So breaking your fast at twilight is okay? Is the same true for in the morning?

Peace

It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.

amuslim

Peace to all,

Ramadan Mubarak. God has already bestowed plenty on me already in this one day and I am greatful. Appreciation of all things during Ramadan and the rest of the year. God be with us all for Ramadan. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds.

Peace

Yosemite

And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

I got a hard time to understand the english there. What does it mean "until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn"?

Does it mean i have to eat betwen the two?

Apparently right now i should be eating. But the sky is still bright, it starts to be red/pink.

zenje

And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

I got a hard time to understand the english there. What does it mean "until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn"?

Does it mean i have to eat betwen the two?

You don't 'have to' eat at all! If you wake up real early in the morning, depending where you live I guess, just before the sunrise, there is a "white thread" of light in the sky. You can eat anytime before and up to that time. But no, you don't HAVE TO wake up just to eat.

Peace

Navid

Peace Zein,

Thank you for posting the verse. )

Wakas

peace alalmakt, siki, Ayman, Zenje, all,

Re layl

Our past discussion revolved around the following

3637 And a sign for them is the night/layl, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.

See also
http//pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/quranic-day-night/

aly-sam

i remember my first ramadan, the first day, i fell asleep in the afternoon and had a dream about eating something out of my fridge and spitting it out all scared and feeling sorry, it wasnt pleasant.
3rd ramadan this one
may God protect and bless us all
peace

Hey ...I have a dream every year that I forget I am fasting and start eating. How strange is that? And yes I too start spitting the food out in my dreams.

Samia

Hey ...I have a dream every year that I forget I am fasting and start eating. How strange is that? And yes I too start spitting the food out in my dreams.

In my country we have a proverb "the dream of a hungry person is a piece of bread" ;D

aly-sam

In my country we have a proverb "the dream of a hungry person is a piece of bread" ;D

unknownuser

Happy and Blessed RamaDdan to all who are fasting.

siki

peace alalmakt, siki, Ayman, Zenje, all,

Re layl

Our past discussion revolved around the following

3637 And a sign for them is the night/layl, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.

See also
http//pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/quranic-day-night/

wakas !

The article is well researched, however i have following questions,

2187, permitted for you is sexual intercourse with your wives during the night of fasting?You may eat and drink until the white thread (of light) becomes distinguishable from the black thread at dawn. Then, you shall fast until the night?

If the night starts at sun set and finishes at sun rise, then , do you think that it is ok to have an intercourse with one's wife from dawn to sun rise? because that period , by the article's logic should be night.

2.The parameter at which we are breaking fast is Ghouroobul shams, and is many a times used in quran, i want to ask, why did God not use a clear and unimbigous term to decribe this parameter? where as , he is very precise about when we should start fasting.

3637 And a sign for them is the night/layl, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.

when the day light is removed from the night(fully) that is what God is defining as night(layal). so the night is darkness , and does not contain daylight in it.

peace

siki

ayman

Peace Siki,

2187, permitted for you is sexual intercourse with your wives during the night of fasting?You may eat and drink until the white thread (of light) becomes distinguishable from the black thread at dawn. Then, you shall fast until the night?

If the night starts at sun set and finishes at sun rise, then , do you think that it is ok to have an intercourse with one's wife from dawn to sun rise? because that period , by the article's logic should be night.

Yes.

2.The parameter at which we are breaking fast is Ghouroobul shams, and is many a times used in quran, i want to ask, why did God not use a clear and unimbigous term to decribe this parameter? where as , he is very precise about when we should start fasting.

Another term used for "ghouroob alshams" is "duluk alshams" (see 177. The terms "ghouroob alshams" and "duluk alshams" describe the period when the sun is setting. So the sun is on the horizon and it is gradually disappearing below the horizon (i.e. you can see it passing through or rubbing the horizon). On the other hand, "layl" starts when you can't see the sun because it is completely below the horizon. When "layl" starts is very precise. On the other hand "ghouroob/duluk alshams" is not precise because it takes a few minutes for the sun to pass through the horizon between when it is on the horizon and when it is below it.

3637 And a sign for them is the night/layl, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.
3. when the day light is removed from the night(fully) that is what God is defining as night(layal). so the night is darkness , and does not contain daylight in it.

It is impossible to remove daylight from "layl" unless "layl" has some daylight in it.

If you are saying that "layl" means "night/darkness" then the passage should have said "then whereupon they are in "layl"".

I think that the mental block that is apparent from your above comment and that I have seen with everyone who has a hard time understanding this issue is that they automatically equate the English "night" with the Arabic "layl". In Modern Arabic those two have become synonymous but clearly in the Classical Arabic of the great reading they have two different meanings. So you need to mentally dissassociate them to see the clear fact that when the god is talking about "layl", he is not talking about the English "night".

Peace,

Ayman

nimnimak_11

Assallam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa borokatuhu

Insh allah I will fast again for Ramadan. I will carry on my work (teaching) and try to do as much as I can to renew my Faith.

Peace to All

Peace Hamid

May i ask what you mean by renewing your faith??

zenje

Peace Ayman, siki, Wakas...

I think that the mental block that is apparent from your above comment and that I have seen with everyone who has a hard time understanding this issue is that they automatically equate the English "night" with the Arabic "layl". In Modern Arabic those two have become synonymous but clearly in the Classical Arabic of the great reading they have two different meanings. So you need to mentally dissassociate them to see the clear fact that when the god is talking about "layl", he is not talking about the English "night".

Peace,

Ayman

I agree, and this is why I had a hard time and refused to accept this. I kept thinking in terms of english or other languages where there is no dispute on what night means, so why should there be in arabic. However, when there are explanations for different parts of the night, then there is no problem in deciphering a particular/specific point.

So is layl/night, only the time between ghuroob alshams/duluk alshams/sunset and ghasak allayl/ darkness of the night. Or does layl encompass the whole night as well?

peace