According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?
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It is strange that Muhammad merely took plainly observable physical laws and occurrences, and arbitrarily attributed them to his God. That's all the guy ever did in the whole Quran. He never really displayed any true wisdom, he just said a lot of "do they not see?" and hijacked all of the wonders of nature and attributed them to his particular God. Anybody can do that. The question is, why believe him?
"Quran is from god" this is an hypothesis that could be either right or wrong. We need to be very careful, certain, and honest to ourselves in our conclusion. Lets say for the sake of discussion, if the hopothesis happens to be true then we are done - big time. This is the only book that claims to be from the God of nature. For me it is either this or nothing.
Off topic You seem to hate muslims and Quran. Who is your god, if any?
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Just nit-picking certain verses out of the Quran
Very self-descriptive of you.
while ignoring its degenerated, vengeful, megalomanic and barbaric nature, including its inconsistent, incomplete, repetitious and contradictory structure becomes misunderstandings or metaphoricals.
Subjective.
Even more funnily, people who defiantly criticize the Quran for what it actually is, the Muslim apologists start cherry-picking neatly selected verses out of an ancient 1500 year old book to throb upon the 21st century generation at face value. The Quran is nothing more than an ancient pagan dogmatic book and out-of-fashion,
Again subjective.
and none of the Muslim countries even practice some of Quran's harsh and disfunctional injunctions
The Quran has no harsh or dysfunctioanal injunctions. Do Christian countries practice the Bible?
yet make all sorts of noises to defend them just to claim superiority and feel good over all other nations and disgracefully among themselves.
Anti-Islam idiots are those who make the noise, Muslims merely defend thier religion because they believe it's the truth, just like the Christians do with thier Bible, the Jews with thier Torah etc...
Seriously get a life and grow up.
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So you basically say that the Bible is not divine and has error in it.Jesus came with a book to teach you the wisdom and oneness of God. Alas, you have corrupted it.
Why would anybody want to wipe out the book that Jesus brought? Why would they want to completely wipe out any mention of that? Like I said, there never was a Gospel according to Jesus. He said the law will be written on the hearts of men. Those books are not corruptions of Jesus' book because he never brought a book with him. Those books are merely a retelling of the story of Jesus.
Muhammed did miracles.
Well, be careful about that, because you're going to have to pull out the hadiths to show me this. There are parts of the Quran that suggest the Muhammad wasn't going to be doing any miracles because nobody believed in past prophets who did miracles anyway.
That's you own subjective distorted opinion.
Oh, naturally. That's right. I'm the subjective one, and you're the objective one ;D In my experience, when it comes to Islam, nobody is more subjective than Muslims.
You mean the Old Testament.Muhammed did not come up with inventions. The Quran is the word of God. Grow up and stop clutching at staws.
Telling me to grow up is not an answer and is in fact indicative that you don't have any really good answers and you are beginning to realize this.
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Why would anybody want to wipe out the book that Jesus brought? Why would they want to completely wipe out any mention of that? Like I said, there never was a Gospel according to Jesus. He said the law will be written on the hearts of men. Those books are not corruptions of Jesus' book because he never brought a book with him. Those books are merely a retelling of the story of Jesus.
I believe there are some elements of the original Gospel of Jesus in today's Gospels. They distorted the Gospels to serve thier own purposes. And again, does the Bible have errors in it? You seem to agree with this.
Well, be careful about that, because you're going to have to pull out the hadiths to show me this. There are parts of the Quran that suggest the Muhammad wasn't going to be doing any miracles because nobody believed in past prophets who did miracles anyway.
The Quran is miracle, and also the Night Journey.
Oh, naturally. That's right. I'm the subjective one, and you're the objective one In my experience, when it comes to Islam, nobody is more subjective than Muslims.
May be I am subjective, actually faith is all about subjectivity. I am just trying to reform my people. You just want to demonize the religion.
Telling me to grow up is not an answer and is in fact indicative that you don't have any really good answers and you are beginning to realize this.
No, not at all. It's not indicative of anything. I am just sick of people like Genteel. Apologies if that offended you.
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Good stuff especially for Christian extremist trolls...
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm
The Answer to "Answering Islam"
http//www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm
peace
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I believe there are some elements of the original Gospel of Jesus in today's Gospels. They distorted the Gospels to serve thier own purposes.
Don't you think they would have retained the title of Gospel according to Jesus? Don't you get it? These were narratives by people based on memories.
And again, does the Bible have errors in it? You seem to agree with this
Yes, I think so.
The Quran is miracle,
Says you. So what?
and also the Night Journey.
Yeah, Jesus lives in the second heaven and Moses in the third. and Moses knew better than Allah as to how much prayer the people could bear, which is why he kept sending Muhammad back to change Allah's recommendation, and Allah agrees that his intial recommendation was faulty and too harsh. Huh? And, there are physical gates between the heavens. And, let's not forget about the party of witnesses that saw him take off at night time. Let's face it, either this was a dream on his part, or a purposeful scam.
May be I am subjective, actually faith is all about subjectivity. I am just trying to reform my people. You just want to demonize the religion.
Oh bull. If you call raising logical, iron clad points to be demonizing, then so be it. Sorry if it makes you upset, but that doesn't make it go away. I'm critical of the Bible in some spots too. Does that make you happy? What does it have to do with the Quran? Absolutely nothing. One of the craziest notions I've found from Muslims is that if they can prove the Bible to be wrong, then that automatically proves the Quran to be right. What a faulty, twisted notion that is. I think that Muslims ought to trade a little prayer time for courses in logic and how it works. Christians are logical enough to throw their hands up and say "faith". But Islam is supposed to be the logical religion, (according to Muslims), so therefore, Muslims don't say "faith", they instead embark on all of these crazy, creative explanations that are usually sheer horse manure. But if a Muslim gives me an answer that is 99% impossible, they will say "see? it's 1% possible, so therefore your point has been answered". What a load that is, and Muslims do it all of the time. In fact, you and others are doing this right now.
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Don't you think they would have retained the title of Gospel according to Jesus?
It does not have to.
Yes, I think so.
You follow a man made book that has errors in it?
Says you. So what?
Says the tens of thousands of Pagans of Arabia who converted to Islam.
Yeah, Jesus lives in the second heaven and Moses in the third. and Moses knew better than Allah as to how much prayer the people could bear, which is why he kept sending Muhammad back to change Allah's recommendation, and Allah agrees that his intial recommendation was faulty and too harsh. Huh? And, there are physical gates between the heavens. And, let's not forget about the party of witnesses that saw him take off at night time. Let's face it, either this was a dream on his part, or a purposeful scam.
I do not believe in that hogwash. I believe he journeyed from the Restricted Mosque to the Aqsa Mosque.
Oh bull. If you call raising logical, iron clad points to be demonizing, then so be it.
The problem is that they are not "logical" or "iron clad".
Sorry if it makes you upset, but that doesn't make it go away.
It does not make me upset. I truly want to know how other people's brains function.
I'm critical of the Bible in some spots too. Does that make you happy?
It makes me indifferent. I am only concerned with my faith and reforming my people. Good luck to you too in reforming your faith.
What does it have to do with the Quran? Absolutely nothing.
True.
One of the craziest notions I've found from Muslims is that if they can prove the Bible to be wrong, then that automatically proves the Quran to be right. What a faulty, twisted notion that is.
That is not correct, at least with the thousands of Muslims I have met.
I think that Muslims ought to trade a little prayer time for courses in logic and how it works.
Your Christian fellows are in more need of this.
Christians are logical enough to throw their hands up and say "faith". But Islam is supposed to be the logical religion, (according to Muslims), so therefore, Muslims don't say "faith", they instead embark on all of these crazy, creative explanations that are usually sheer horse manure.
Muslims say faith too. The concept of jinn is based on faith for instance.
But if a Muslim gives me an answer that is 99% impossible, they will say "see? it's 1% possible, so therefore your point has been answered". What a load that is
I frankly excuse them when debating close minded people.
and Muslims do it all of the time.
Not true.
In fact, you and others are doing this right now.
I am trying to understand your awkward thinking, you are not helping me.
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It does not have to.
The question was, don't you think they would have preserved the title of Gospel of Jesus? You didn't answer that, you side stepped it.
You follow a man made book that has errors in it?
I believe those stories occurred. You follow a book that clearly has an embarrasing 7th century understanding of the cosmos. So why do you ignore that?
Says the tens of thousands of Pagans of Arabia who converted to Islam.
They do not constitute witnesses. That's what I meant.
I do not believe in that hogwash. I believe he journeyed from the Restricted Mosque to the Aqsa Mosque.
Well then why believe in ANY of the story. you seem to like to make up yopur own stories that are suitable for you
The problem is that they are not "logical" or "iron clad".
Yes they are logical. You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there's nothing illogical about it.
It does not make me upset. I truly want to know how other people's brains function.It makes me indifferent. I am only concerned with my faith and reforming my people. Good luck to you too in reforming your faith<snip>
Look, at this point, it's pretty obvious that you are in the process of inventing your own religion. So a conversation can't be had with you because there is no standard to adhere to. You'll merely reinvent your own standards as need be in the midst of the conversation..
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Peace
6512
Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and from the earth the like thereof/similar to them/similar number. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah encompasses all things in knowledge.What do you reckon the above verse is saying in light of this discussion?
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The question was, don't you think they would have preserved the title of Gospel of Jesus? You didn't answer that, you side stepped it.
No.
I believe those stories occurred.
You follow a book that clearly has many scientific and historical errors and that has an embarassing 4th understanding of humanity, science etc...
They do not constitute witnesses. That's what I meant.
Witnesses to what? You would not have followed Muhammed if he was not genuine.
Well then why believe in ANY of the story. you seem to like to make up yopur own stories that are suitable for you
I only believe what is in the Quran. That Night Journey story is mentioned in the Quran.
Yes they are logical. You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there's nothing illogical about it.
No they are not logical and most of them have been refuted by me. You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there is nothing logical about it.
Look, at this point, it's pretty obvious that you are in the process of inventing your own religion.
So instead of wishing me back luck, you accuse me of "inventing" a new religion? I am a Muslim and will always be one.
So a conversation can't be had with you because there is no standard to adhere to. You'll merely reinvent your own standards as need be in the midst of the conversation..
A conversation can be held based on Quranic facts, not assumptions.
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Peace
6512
Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and from the earth the like thereof/similar to them/similar number. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah encompasses all things in knowledge.What do you reckon the above verse is saying in light of this discussion?
The Quran is being revealed slowly, over the course of 22 years rather than coming down all at once.
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No.
Why would they want to bother to change the title of the book from the Gospel of Jesus to something else? they can alter a book without changing it's title. So why bother to change the title? Have you really thought this through?
You follow a book that clearly has many scientific and historical errors and that has an embarassing 4th understanding of humanity, science etc...
Would you mind telling me how that helps the 7th century blunders of the Quran? It's like the moron parable of the guy who gets a hole in his boat. So what does he do to fix it? He punches a whole in someone else's boat. Yeah, that awta do it ;D
Witnesses to what?
Witnesses to him taking off at all. Get it? Clear?
I only believe what is in the Quran. That Night Journey story is mentioned in the Quran.No they are not logical and most of them have been refuted by me.
Where? You keep saying this and it's not there. Don't just make the claim, be specific or else it's absolutely meaningless and therefore to be ignored. Hasn't anyone ever taught you this?
You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there is nothing logical about it.
Don't you understand that you can't just make a claim, you have to logically substantiate it. You just make bizarre claims out of nowhere, and until you substantiate, they are ignored. Isn't that the way logic works?
Ex. You are not logical
Why not?
I don't have to explain. If I say you are not logical, you are not logical and you have been refuted.Absolutely ridiculous, and don't think it doesn't go unnoticed. And it's not going to work so try a different angle.
So instead of wishing me back luck, you accuse me of "inventing" a new religion?
Well, you do appear to shun scholars who study it tireless and instead decide to make up ideas that you are more comfortable with. Now maybe that's not inventing your own religion, but it is what's called "self fulfilling prophesy" were objectiveness disappears and things are viewed in a manner in which the person wants or needs them to be. Anyway, I'm here to analyze authentic ideas of Islam, not someone's ala carte of convenience. That stuff is your own business.
I am a Muslim and will always be one. A conversation can be held based on Quranic facts, not assumptions.
Well, I think you take a lot of liberties with the Quran.
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Why would they want to bother to change the title of the book from the Gospel of Jesus to something else? they can alter a book without changing it's title. So why bother to change the title? Have you really thought this through?
Because they wanted to corrupt it so much that they even wanted to change its title. It's extra work but they did it anyway.
Would you mind telling me how that helps the 7th century blunders of the Quran? It's like the moron parable of the guy who gets a hole in his boat. So what does he do to fix it? He punches a whole in someone else's boat. Yeah, that awta do it
I believe the Quran to contain no blunders wether of 7th century or 17th century. And so your analogy is false as usual.
Witnesses to him taking off at all. Get it? Clear?
They knew Muhammed was genuine and that's why all of Arabia followed him.
Where? You keep saying this and it's not there. Don't just make the claim, be specific or else it's absolutely meaningless.
What are you talking about there?
Don't you understand that you can't just make a claim, you have to logically substantiate it. You just make bizarre claims out of nowhere, and until you substantiate, they are ignored. Isn't that the way logic works?
Ex. You are not logical
Why not?
I don't have to explain. If I say you are not logical, you are not logical and you have been refuted.Absolutely ridiculous, and don't think it doesn't go unnoticed. vAnd it;'s not going to work so try a different angle.
I substantiated my claims in the other threads.
Well, you do appear to shun scholars who study it tireless
They tried to interpret it in light of thier culture.
and instead decide to make up ideas that you are more comfortable with.
I make up nothing. I only study the Quran.
Now maybe that's not inventing your own religion, but it is what's called "self fulfilling prophesy" were objectiveness disappears and things are viewed in a manner in which the person wants or needs them to be.
I substantiate my claims and so it's objective.
I'm here to analyze authentic ideas of Islam, not someone's ala carte of convenience. That stuff is your own business.
Unfortunately, you are not analyzing authentic ideas of Islam.
Well, I think you take a lot of liberties with the Quran.
Quran is all about liberties and freedom of thought.
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Because they wanted to corrupt it so much that they even wanted to change its title. It's extra work but they did it anyway.
;D ;D Yeah, let's corrupt it and give it a less authorative name. ;D
I believe the Quran to contain no blunders wether of 7th century or 17th century.
Yes, just ignore everything that has been shown that you can't answer. It's better for you that way. ;D
And so your analogy is false as usual.They knew Muhammed was genuine and that's why all of Arabia followed him.
I think they followed him because he was winning battle and they were gaining much booty. So much booty that an entire Sura had to be dedicated to how to split the booty up
What are you talking about there?I substantiated my claims in the other threads
And it continually gets easily refuted. An answer does not constitute any old tripe that you can imagine and type, it has to work. I get this so often from Muslims. They give me this highly unlikely answer with holes in it, and then say I have been answered and refuted. Almost like just the fact that they come up with some answer automatically means the point has been answered and refuted. Ridiculous. Often it's a cover for a lack of answer. Don't think I haven't seen it before. I have.
They tried to interpret it in light of thier culture.
Nice try, but most of those translators are from the 20th century. Whoops !!!
I make up nothing.
;D
I only study the Quran.I substantiate my claims and so it's objective.
Do you mean that if you can type some words and then claim you have substantiated, then you have substantiated? ;D
Unfortunately, you are not analyzing authentic ideas of Islam.Quran is all about liberties and freedom of thought.
Oh boy. Well that's an entirely different topic. I'm not touching that here and now. Maybe later.
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Yeah, let's corrupt it and give it a less authorative name.
Yea, they were so dumb.
Yes, just ignore everything that has been shown that you can't answer. It's better for you that way.
You continue to dwell in your little world. I have answered every point you have raised. Bring me an instance where I have not.
I think they followed him because he was winning battle and they were gaining much booty.
He did not win battle at the beginning of his message, yet thousands upon thousands joined him.
So much booty that an entire Sura had to be dedicated to how to split the booty up
?
And it continually gets easily refuted.
And your claims continually get refuted too. I cite my claims however, you just base them on your own preconcieved assumptions.
An answer does not constitute any old tripe that you can imagine and type, it has to work. I get this so often from Muslims. They give me this highly unlikely answer with holes in it, and then say I have been answered and refuted. Almost like just the fact that they come up with some answer automatically means the point has been answered and refuted. Ridiculous. Often it's a cover for a lack of answer. Don't think I haven't seen it before. I have.
I have also seen your likes before. We provide answers with sources. You do not. Just mere assumptions.
Nice try, but most of those translators are from the 20th century. Whoops !!!
Yea, Tabari and Ibn Kathir lived in the 20th century. Brilliant.
;D
A sign of nervouseness.
Do you mean that if you can type some words and then claim you have substantiated, then you have substantiated?
I provide sources, you do not. So I substantiate them, you do not.
Oh boy. Well that's an entirely different topic. I'm not touching that here and now. Maybe later.
If it's an entirely different topic, then do not bring it up in irrelevant discussions.
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I highly recommend everyone read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. It is historical fact that "the bible" has been tampered with a lot throughout time
This is common knowledge, except for some brainwashed people.
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I highly recommend everyone read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. It is historical fact that "the bible" has been tampered with a lot throughout time
Why does this mean that Jesus brought a Gospel with him and wrote it just like Muhammad did? As far as the Bible goes, all I see are varying accounts of events, but that in general they are fairly common with each other. All it was supposed to be was a recounting of events that happened from the different perspectives, and yes, possibly different memories of the apostles. That's it. Jesus said the law will be written on the hearts of men, not in some book he was writing, nor in any future book. Why would people want to purposefully add this verse? There's no benefit.
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Why does this mean that Jesus brought a Gospel with him and wrote it just like Muhammad did? As far as the Bible goes, all I see are varying accounts of events, but that in general they are fairly common with each other. All it was supposed to be was a recounting of events that happened from the different perspectives, and yes, possibly different memories of the apostles. That's it. Jesus said the law will be written on the hearts of men, not in some book he was writing, nor in any future book. Why would people want to purposefully add this verse? There's no benefit.
So you agree the Bible is not the word of God and not originally what Jesus preached?
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Yea, they were so dumb.
Oh please. NEXT !!!
You continue to dwell in your little world. I have answered every point you have raised. Bring me an instance where I have not.
How about every single thread I've started. Well, let's be clear. You answered them, but your answers were holier than swiss cheese and I showed you precisely why. No, just because you can type an answer does not mean you have settled the issue, so quit trying to pretend you have. It doesn't work.
He did not win battle at the beginning of his message, yet thousands upon thousands joined him.?And your claims continually get refuted too. I cite my claims however, you just base them on your own preconcieved assumptions
Citing? I haven't seen much of that, but go ahead, just make the claim.
I have also seen your likes before. We provide answers with sources.
Doesn't your answer have to at least add up or is that not a requirement for you? As far a sources go, I'm the one who provides the multiple translations for the verse, the Arabic text of the verse, the tafsir for the verses, and even some related hadiths if desired. Me. Not you. Me.
You do not. Just mere assumptions.Yea, Tabari and Ibn Kathir lived in the 20th century.
I said translators, not tafsir. Pay attention. Stop flubbing it.
Brilliant.A sign of nervouseness.I provide sources, you do not.
Are you insane or something?. I'm the guy who has provided the most sources, you have provided the most imagination.
So I substantiate them, you do not.If it's an entirely different topic, then do not bring it up in irrelevant discussions.
Are you just trying to parrot what I say and then swap it around for no particularly good reason? It doesn't work. Try something else. Thank you.