According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?
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Why would anybody want to wipe out the book that Jesus brought? Why would they want to completely wipe out any mention of that? Like I said, there never was a Gospel according to Jesus. He said the law will be written on the hearts of men. Those books are not corruptions of Jesus' book because he never brought a book with him. Those books are merely a retelling of the story of Jesus.
I believe there are some elements of the original Gospel of Jesus in today's Gospels. They distorted the Gospels to serve thier own purposes. And again, does the Bible have errors in it? You seem to agree with this.
Well, be careful about that, because you're going to have to pull out the hadiths to show me this. There are parts of the Quran that suggest the Muhammad wasn't going to be doing any miracles because nobody believed in past prophets who did miracles anyway.
The Quran is miracle, and also the Night Journey.
Oh, naturally. That's right. I'm the subjective one, and you're the objective one In my experience, when it comes to Islam, nobody is more subjective than Muslims.
May be I am subjective, actually faith is all about subjectivity. I am just trying to reform my people. You just want to demonize the religion.
Telling me to grow up is not an answer and is in fact indicative that you don't have any really good answers and you are beginning to realize this.
No, not at all. It's not indicative of anything. I am just sick of people like Genteel. Apologies if that offended you.
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Good stuff especially for Christian extremist trolls...
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm
The Answer to "Answering Islam"
http//www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm
peace
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I believe there are some elements of the original Gospel of Jesus in today's Gospels. They distorted the Gospels to serve thier own purposes.
Don't you think they would have retained the title of Gospel according to Jesus? Don't you get it? These were narratives by people based on memories.
And again, does the Bible have errors in it? You seem to agree with this
Yes, I think so.
The Quran is miracle,
Says you. So what?
and also the Night Journey.
Yeah, Jesus lives in the second heaven and Moses in the third. and Moses knew better than Allah as to how much prayer the people could bear, which is why he kept sending Muhammad back to change Allah's recommendation, and Allah agrees that his intial recommendation was faulty and too harsh. Huh? And, there are physical gates between the heavens. And, let's not forget about the party of witnesses that saw him take off at night time. Let's face it, either this was a dream on his part, or a purposeful scam.
May be I am subjective, actually faith is all about subjectivity. I am just trying to reform my people. You just want to demonize the religion.
Oh bull. If you call raising logical, iron clad points to be demonizing, then so be it. Sorry if it makes you upset, but that doesn't make it go away. I'm critical of the Bible in some spots too. Does that make you happy? What does it have to do with the Quran? Absolutely nothing. One of the craziest notions I've found from Muslims is that if they can prove the Bible to be wrong, then that automatically proves the Quran to be right. What a faulty, twisted notion that is. I think that Muslims ought to trade a little prayer time for courses in logic and how it works. Christians are logical enough to throw their hands up and say "faith". But Islam is supposed to be the logical religion, (according to Muslims), so therefore, Muslims don't say "faith", they instead embark on all of these crazy, creative explanations that are usually sheer horse manure. But if a Muslim gives me an answer that is 99% impossible, they will say "see? it's 1% possible, so therefore your point has been answered". What a load that is, and Muslims do it all of the time. In fact, you and others are doing this right now.
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Don't you think they would have retained the title of Gospel according to Jesus?
It does not have to.
Yes, I think so.
You follow a man made book that has errors in it?
Says you. So what?
Says the tens of thousands of Pagans of Arabia who converted to Islam.
Yeah, Jesus lives in the second heaven and Moses in the third. and Moses knew better than Allah as to how much prayer the people could bear, which is why he kept sending Muhammad back to change Allah's recommendation, and Allah agrees that his intial recommendation was faulty and too harsh. Huh? And, there are physical gates between the heavens. And, let's not forget about the party of witnesses that saw him take off at night time. Let's face it, either this was a dream on his part, or a purposeful scam.
I do not believe in that hogwash. I believe he journeyed from the Restricted Mosque to the Aqsa Mosque.
Oh bull. If you call raising logical, iron clad points to be demonizing, then so be it.
The problem is that they are not "logical" or "iron clad".
Sorry if it makes you upset, but that doesn't make it go away.
It does not make me upset. I truly want to know how other people's brains function.
I'm critical of the Bible in some spots too. Does that make you happy?
It makes me indifferent. I am only concerned with my faith and reforming my people. Good luck to you too in reforming your faith.
What does it have to do with the Quran? Absolutely nothing.
True.
One of the craziest notions I've found from Muslims is that if they can prove the Bible to be wrong, then that automatically proves the Quran to be right. What a faulty, twisted notion that is.
That is not correct, at least with the thousands of Muslims I have met.
I think that Muslims ought to trade a little prayer time for courses in logic and how it works.
Your Christian fellows are in more need of this.
Christians are logical enough to throw their hands up and say "faith". But Islam is supposed to be the logical religion, (according to Muslims), so therefore, Muslims don't say "faith", they instead embark on all of these crazy, creative explanations that are usually sheer horse manure.
Muslims say faith too. The concept of jinn is based on faith for instance.
But if a Muslim gives me an answer that is 99% impossible, they will say "see? it's 1% possible, so therefore your point has been answered". What a load that is
I frankly excuse them when debating close minded people.
and Muslims do it all of the time.
Not true.
In fact, you and others are doing this right now.
I am trying to understand your awkward thinking, you are not helping me.
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It does not have to.
The question was, don't you think they would have preserved the title of Gospel of Jesus? You didn't answer that, you side stepped it.
You follow a man made book that has errors in it?
I believe those stories occurred. You follow a book that clearly has an embarrasing 7th century understanding of the cosmos. So why do you ignore that?
Says the tens of thousands of Pagans of Arabia who converted to Islam.
They do not constitute witnesses. That's what I meant.
I do not believe in that hogwash. I believe he journeyed from the Restricted Mosque to the Aqsa Mosque.
Well then why believe in ANY of the story. you seem to like to make up yopur own stories that are suitable for you
The problem is that they are not "logical" or "iron clad".
Yes they are logical. You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there's nothing illogical about it.
It does not make me upset. I truly want to know how other people's brains function.It makes me indifferent. I am only concerned with my faith and reforming my people. Good luck to you too in reforming your faith<snip>
Look, at this point, it's pretty obvious that you are in the process of inventing your own religion. So a conversation can't be had with you because there is no standard to adhere to. You'll merely reinvent your own standards as need be in the midst of the conversation..
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Peace
6512
Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and from the earth the like thereof/similar to them/similar number. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah encompasses all things in knowledge.What do you reckon the above verse is saying in light of this discussion?
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The question was, don't you think they would have preserved the title of Gospel of Jesus? You didn't answer that, you side stepped it.
No.
I believe those stories occurred.
You follow a book that clearly has many scientific and historical errors and that has an embarassing 4th understanding of humanity, science etc...
They do not constitute witnesses. That's what I meant.
Witnesses to what? You would not have followed Muhammed if he was not genuine.
Well then why believe in ANY of the story. you seem to like to make up yopur own stories that are suitable for you
I only believe what is in the Quran. That Night Journey story is mentioned in the Quran.
Yes they are logical. You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there's nothing illogical about it.
No they are not logical and most of them have been refuted by me. You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there is nothing logical about it.
Look, at this point, it's pretty obvious that you are in the process of inventing your own religion.
So instead of wishing me back luck, you accuse me of "inventing" a new religion? I am a Muslim and will always be one.
So a conversation can't be had with you because there is no standard to adhere to. You'll merely reinvent your own standards as need be in the midst of the conversation..
A conversation can be held based on Quranic facts, not assumptions.
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Peace
6512
Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and from the earth the like thereof/similar to them/similar number. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah encompasses all things in knowledge.What do you reckon the above verse is saying in light of this discussion?
The Quran is being revealed slowly, over the course of 22 years rather than coming down all at once.
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No.
Why would they want to bother to change the title of the book from the Gospel of Jesus to something else? they can alter a book without changing it's title. So why bother to change the title? Have you really thought this through?
You follow a book that clearly has many scientific and historical errors and that has an embarassing 4th understanding of humanity, science etc...
Would you mind telling me how that helps the 7th century blunders of the Quran? It's like the moron parable of the guy who gets a hole in his boat. So what does he do to fix it? He punches a whole in someone else's boat. Yeah, that awta do it ;D
Witnesses to what?
Witnesses to him taking off at all. Get it? Clear?
I only believe what is in the Quran. That Night Journey story is mentioned in the Quran.No they are not logical and most of them have been refuted by me.
Where? You keep saying this and it's not there. Don't just make the claim, be specific or else it's absolutely meaningless and therefore to be ignored. Hasn't anyone ever taught you this?
You don't have to agree with it or accept it, but there is nothing logical about it.
Don't you understand that you can't just make a claim, you have to logically substantiate it. You just make bizarre claims out of nowhere, and until you substantiate, they are ignored. Isn't that the way logic works?
Ex. You are not logical
Why not?
I don't have to explain. If I say you are not logical, you are not logical and you have been refuted.Absolutely ridiculous, and don't think it doesn't go unnoticed. And it's not going to work so try a different angle.
So instead of wishing me back luck, you accuse me of "inventing" a new religion?
Well, you do appear to shun scholars who study it tireless and instead decide to make up ideas that you are more comfortable with. Now maybe that's not inventing your own religion, but it is what's called "self fulfilling prophesy" were objectiveness disappears and things are viewed in a manner in which the person wants or needs them to be. Anyway, I'm here to analyze authentic ideas of Islam, not someone's ala carte of convenience. That stuff is your own business.
I am a Muslim and will always be one. A conversation can be held based on Quranic facts, not assumptions.
Well, I think you take a lot of liberties with the Quran.
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Why would they want to bother to change the title of the book from the Gospel of Jesus to something else? they can alter a book without changing it's title. So why bother to change the title? Have you really thought this through?
Because they wanted to corrupt it so much that they even wanted to change its title. It's extra work but they did it anyway.
Would you mind telling me how that helps the 7th century blunders of the Quran? It's like the moron parable of the guy who gets a hole in his boat. So what does he do to fix it? He punches a whole in someone else's boat. Yeah, that awta do it
I believe the Quran to contain no blunders wether of 7th century or 17th century. And so your analogy is false as usual.
Witnesses to him taking off at all. Get it? Clear?
They knew Muhammed was genuine and that's why all of Arabia followed him.
Where? You keep saying this and it's not there. Don't just make the claim, be specific or else it's absolutely meaningless.
What are you talking about there?
Don't you understand that you can't just make a claim, you have to logically substantiate it. You just make bizarre claims out of nowhere, and until you substantiate, they are ignored. Isn't that the way logic works?
Ex. You are not logical
Why not?
I don't have to explain. If I say you are not logical, you are not logical and you have been refuted.Absolutely ridiculous, and don't think it doesn't go unnoticed. vAnd it;'s not going to work so try a different angle.
I substantiated my claims in the other threads.
Well, you do appear to shun scholars who study it tireless
They tried to interpret it in light of thier culture.
and instead decide to make up ideas that you are more comfortable with.
I make up nothing. I only study the Quran.
Now maybe that's not inventing your own religion, but it is what's called "self fulfilling prophesy" were objectiveness disappears and things are viewed in a manner in which the person wants or needs them to be.
I substantiate my claims and so it's objective.
I'm here to analyze authentic ideas of Islam, not someone's ala carte of convenience. That stuff is your own business.
Unfortunately, you are not analyzing authentic ideas of Islam.
Well, I think you take a lot of liberties with the Quran.
Quran is all about liberties and freedom of thought.
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Because they wanted to corrupt it so much that they even wanted to change its title. It's extra work but they did it anyway.
;D ;D Yeah, let's corrupt it and give it a less authorative name. ;D
I believe the Quran to contain no blunders wether of 7th century or 17th century.
Yes, just ignore everything that has been shown that you can't answer. It's better for you that way. ;D
And so your analogy is false as usual.They knew Muhammed was genuine and that's why all of Arabia followed him.
I think they followed him because he was winning battle and they were gaining much booty. So much booty that an entire Sura had to be dedicated to how to split the booty up
What are you talking about there?I substantiated my claims in the other threads
And it continually gets easily refuted. An answer does not constitute any old tripe that you can imagine and type, it has to work. I get this so often from Muslims. They give me this highly unlikely answer with holes in it, and then say I have been answered and refuted. Almost like just the fact that they come up with some answer automatically means the point has been answered and refuted. Ridiculous. Often it's a cover for a lack of answer. Don't think I haven't seen it before. I have.
They tried to interpret it in light of thier culture.
Nice try, but most of those translators are from the 20th century. Whoops !!!
I make up nothing.
;D
I only study the Quran.I substantiate my claims and so it's objective.
Do you mean that if you can type some words and then claim you have substantiated, then you have substantiated? ;D
Unfortunately, you are not analyzing authentic ideas of Islam.Quran is all about liberties and freedom of thought.
Oh boy. Well that's an entirely different topic. I'm not touching that here and now. Maybe later.
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Yeah, let's corrupt it and give it a less authorative name.
Yea, they were so dumb.
Yes, just ignore everything that has been shown that you can't answer. It's better for you that way.
You continue to dwell in your little world. I have answered every point you have raised. Bring me an instance where I have not.
I think they followed him because he was winning battle and they were gaining much booty.
He did not win battle at the beginning of his message, yet thousands upon thousands joined him.
So much booty that an entire Sura had to be dedicated to how to split the booty up
?
And it continually gets easily refuted.
And your claims continually get refuted too. I cite my claims however, you just base them on your own preconcieved assumptions.
An answer does not constitute any old tripe that you can imagine and type, it has to work. I get this so often from Muslims. They give me this highly unlikely answer with holes in it, and then say I have been answered and refuted. Almost like just the fact that they come up with some answer automatically means the point has been answered and refuted. Ridiculous. Often it's a cover for a lack of answer. Don't think I haven't seen it before. I have.
I have also seen your likes before. We provide answers with sources. You do not. Just mere assumptions.
Nice try, but most of those translators are from the 20th century. Whoops !!!
Yea, Tabari and Ibn Kathir lived in the 20th century. Brilliant.
;D
A sign of nervouseness.
Do you mean that if you can type some words and then claim you have substantiated, then you have substantiated?
I provide sources, you do not. So I substantiate them, you do not.
Oh boy. Well that's an entirely different topic. I'm not touching that here and now. Maybe later.
If it's an entirely different topic, then do not bring it up in irrelevant discussions.
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I highly recommend everyone read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. It is historical fact that "the bible" has been tampered with a lot throughout time
This is common knowledge, except for some brainwashed people.
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I highly recommend everyone read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. It is historical fact that "the bible" has been tampered with a lot throughout time
Why does this mean that Jesus brought a Gospel with him and wrote it just like Muhammad did? As far as the Bible goes, all I see are varying accounts of events, but that in general they are fairly common with each other. All it was supposed to be was a recounting of events that happened from the different perspectives, and yes, possibly different memories of the apostles. That's it. Jesus said the law will be written on the hearts of men, not in some book he was writing, nor in any future book. Why would people want to purposefully add this verse? There's no benefit.
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Why does this mean that Jesus brought a Gospel with him and wrote it just like Muhammad did? As far as the Bible goes, all I see are varying accounts of events, but that in general they are fairly common with each other. All it was supposed to be was a recounting of events that happened from the different perspectives, and yes, possibly different memories of the apostles. That's it. Jesus said the law will be written on the hearts of men, not in some book he was writing, nor in any future book. Why would people want to purposefully add this verse? There's no benefit.
So you agree the Bible is not the word of God and not originally what Jesus preached?
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Yea, they were so dumb.
Oh please. NEXT !!!
You continue to dwell in your little world. I have answered every point you have raised. Bring me an instance where I have not.
How about every single thread I've started. Well, let's be clear. You answered them, but your answers were holier than swiss cheese and I showed you precisely why. No, just because you can type an answer does not mean you have settled the issue, so quit trying to pretend you have. It doesn't work.
He did not win battle at the beginning of his message, yet thousands upon thousands joined him.?And your claims continually get refuted too. I cite my claims however, you just base them on your own preconcieved assumptions
Citing? I haven't seen much of that, but go ahead, just make the claim.
I have also seen your likes before. We provide answers with sources.
Doesn't your answer have to at least add up or is that not a requirement for you? As far a sources go, I'm the one who provides the multiple translations for the verse, the Arabic text of the verse, the tafsir for the verses, and even some related hadiths if desired. Me. Not you. Me.
You do not. Just mere assumptions.Yea, Tabari and Ibn Kathir lived in the 20th century.
I said translators, not tafsir. Pay attention. Stop flubbing it.
Brilliant.A sign of nervouseness.I provide sources, you do not.
Are you insane or something?. I'm the guy who has provided the most sources, you have provided the most imagination.
So I substantiate them, you do not.If it's an entirely different topic, then do not bring it up in irrelevant discussions.
Are you just trying to parrot what I say and then swap it around for no particularly good reason? It doesn't work. Try something else. Thank you.
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So you agree the Bible is not the word of God and not originally what Jesus preached?
Oh no, I think it's essentially what he preached. Plenty good enough to see what he was really talking about if one has the right eye. But rememeber, first and foremost is that the New Tesatment is not a rulebook, it is a recounting of events that may have lessons and perhaps some rules in it. This is the way a lot of the OLd Testament was as well. It was a recounting of events between God and man with lessons to be gained. The Quran is far different than any book in the Torah, Old Testament or New Testament. It is completely different in style, format and it's objective than any other books that it was supposedly a follow up to.
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Oh no, I think it's essentially what he preached. Plenty good enough to see what he was really talking about if one has the right eye. But rememeber, first and foremost is that the New Tesatment is not a rulebook, it is a recounting of events that may have lessons and perhaps some rules in it. This is the way a lot of the OLd Testament was as well. It was a recounting of events between God and man with lessons to be gained. The Quran is far different than any book in the Torah, Old Testament or New Testament. It is completely different in style, format and it's objective than any other books that it was supposedly a follow up to.
So what do you make of the countless errors and contradictions within the Bible?
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Oh no, I think it's essentially what he preached. Plenty good enough to see what he was really talking about if one has the right eye. But rememeber, first and foremost is that the New Tesatment is not a rulebook, it is a recounting of events that may have lessons and perhaps some rules in it. This is the way a lot of the OLd Testament was as well. It was a recounting of events between God and man with lessons to be gained. The Quran is far different than any book in the Torah, Old Testament or New Testament. It is completely different in style, format and it's objective than any other books that it was supposedly a follow up to.
2136 Say "We believe in God and what was descended to us and what was descended to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Issac, and Jacob, and the Jewish tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not distinguish between anyone from them, and we are to Him submitters/Muslims."
WayuAAallimuhu alkitaba waalhikmata waalttawrata waal-injeela
348 And He teaches him The Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel.The Book refers to revelation transmitted; although some hearsay does echo Qur'an...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com
The numbers on the left are for an estimated range of dating.
30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 OrigenWORD OF GOD---SURAT AL-QALAM & TRANSLATION
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wb89XupQuQ
Peace