According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?
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Could you answer the question?
I thought I did. OK, I'll try this. I look inward. After all, what's the point of trying to ask about anything, whether it be God or reality, if we first don't even understand the person asking the question (ourselves)? I release all desires for what I need to be true. Every opinion either adds to or subtracts from reality. If you are seeing your opinion, you are not seeing reality. If one sees the world through their concepts, they are not seeing reality. Maybe God is found through clarity of reality itself and when it happens, nothing much more, including an afterlife is really needed. If it's there, great !! If it's not, great !! Sometimes it's the people that are the most bothered about what will happen in another life, that are the ones that don't know what to do with this life. ;D Their entire lives were perpetually spent in the future. Their entire lives were nothing really more than wasted on future anticipation. They never actually lived in the now, but perpetually in the past and future. Buddhists can understand what I'm saying, and Sufis can as well. But not main stream Muslims. Too much of an ingrained tit for tat, book of records, bean counting of events where there is a contract between them and God to where they count up their points and redeem them. And of course, the ultimate spiritual bankruptcy behind this concept, is that fact that ultimately, the individual does all of their good works as points for reward, which means that ultimately, they don't do them for God, but rather themselves. Yes, that's right, most people don't realize that all of their sacrifice for God was not really a sacrifice for God at all, but merely a sacrifice for one's self. It was in their own ultimate self interest. Most people don't do things to please God. They do things to please themselves, and pleasing God just so happens to be what they believe to be the best and smartest way to ultimately (one day) please themselves. That's all. Pretty simple. But most people will sleepwalk through their entire lives never realizing this, and adhere to some bogus sort of tit for tat, action for action, book of records contract. As Meister Eckhardt said, it is not by your actions that you will be saved, but by your being. Which to me means, what is ultimately in your heart, or how you see things or the manner or lens which with you perceive everything, and not what you have done in the past. What you are and have learned, not what you were.
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I thought I did. OK, I'll try this. I look inward. After all, what's the point of trying to ask about anything, whether it be God or reality, if we first don't even understand the person asking the question (ourselves)? I release all desires for what I need to be true. Every opinion either adds to or subtracts from reality. If you are seeing your opinion, you are not seeing reality. If one sees the world through their concepts, they are not seeing reality. Maybe God is found through clarity of reality itself and when it happens, nothing much more, including an afterlife is really needed. If it's there, great !! If it's not, great !! Sometimes it's the people that are the most bothered about what will happen in another life, that are the ones that don't know what to do with this life. ;D Their entire lives were perpetually spent in the future. Their entire lives were nothing really more than wasted on future anticipation. They never actually lived in the now, but perpetually in the past and future. Buddhists can understand what I'm saying, and Sufis can as well. But not main stream Muslims. Too much of an ingrained tit for tat, book of records, bean counting of events where there is a contract between them and God to where they count up their points and redeem them. And of course, the ultimate spiritual bankruptcy behind this concept, is that fact that ultimately, the individual does all of their good works as points for reward, which means that ultimately, they don't do them for God, but rather themselves. Yes, that's right, most people don't realize that all of their sacrifice for God was not really a sacrifice for God at all, but merely a sacrifice for one's self. It was in their own ultimate self interest. Most people don't do things to please God. They do things to please themselves, and pleasing God just so happens to be what they believe to be the best and smartest way to ultimately (one day) please themselves. That's all. Pretty simple. But most people will sleepwalk through their entire lives never realizing this, and adhere to some bogus sort of tit for tat, action for action, book of records contract. As Meister Eckhardt said, it is not by your actions that you will be saved, but by your being. Which to me means, what is ultimately in your heart, or how you see things or the manner or lens which with you perceive everything, and not what you have done in the past. What you are and have learned, not what you were.
Very profound and a good introduction to religious philosophy 101.
So.. Could you answer this, perhaps more straightforwardly
Knowing the Bible has errors and contradictions, how do you know what is true and what is not?
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Very profound and a good introduction to religious philosophy 101.
So.. Could you answer this, perhaps more straightforwardly
Knowing the Bible has errors and contradictions, how do you know what is true and what is not?
Through concepts that I have learned that you obviously don't understand as it flew by your head as philosophy 101. That's what every dummy thinks when they don't understand the depth. The truth is inside you, and nowhere else.
Do yo want the truth? The truth is beyond words. Finding the truth is directly proportional to the amount of falsehoods one identifies. Truth can never truly be put into words sufficiently, because the truth isn't something we invented. But falsehoods can certainly be perfectly described by words because we invented falsewords, and we used our own words to do so. Therefore, falsehoods easliy fit into words. The truth isn't something that is found, because it's always right next to you. But, if you think it's something else, then you will search and search, to no avail. All you have is a system of rules written by some man's idea of justice that isn't really particularly spectacular at all. General common sense. I certainly couldn't win all of the battles Muhammad did, but when it comes to deeper wisdom, I could blow the Quran away. The Quran is philosophically and spiritually childish.
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Through concepts that I have learned that you obviously don't understand as it flew by your head as philosophy 101. That's what every dummy thinks when they don't understand the depth. The truth is inside you, and nowhere else.
Oh, I completely understand, regardless of my "dummy"-ness. I agree the truth is inside of us. However, I do not see how this means it is impossible for the truth to be elsewhere, in order to help us find the truth within. I asked a simple question regarding the Bible - assuming you believe it is, at some point, from God. If you do not, then disregard my question and we will continue the current discussion.
Do yo want the truth? The truth is beyond words. Finding the truth is directly proportional to the amount of falsehoods one identifies. Truth can never truly be put into words sufficiently, because the truth isn't something we invented. But falsehoods can certainly be perfectly described by words because we invented falsewords, and we used our own words to do so. Therefore, falsehoods easliy fit into words. The truth isn't something that is found, because it's always right next to you. But, if you think it's something else, then you will search and search, to no avail.
Again, look above. The truth is inherently within us, which we do need to "find." We (can) do this by getting help from an external source that also contains the truth. But this seems to offend you.
All you have is a system of rules written by some man's idea of justice that isn't really particularly spectacular at all. General common sense. I certainly couldn't win all of the battles Muhammad did, but when it comes to deeper wisdom, I could blow the Quran away. The Quran is philosophically and spiritually childish.
Pure subjectivity. The thing you need to understand is, there are some people with beliefs - yes, actual individual beliefs that differ from others! Yes, some concepts can be found anywhere, but we believe the quran is the direct word of God so we choose to follow it, Others don't, fine. This seems to deeply bother you. You seem to rejoice in statements like "but when it comes to deeper wisdom, I could blow the Quran away."
To you are your beliefs, to me are mine. Sorry if this bothers you.
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Oh please. NEXT !!!
As usual when you have no answers.
How about every single thread I've started. Well, let's be clear. You answered them, but your answers were holier than swiss cheese and I showed you precisely why. No, just because you can type an answer does not mean you have settled the issue, so quit trying to pretend you have. It doesn't work.
And I answered your "answers". So what are you talking about here?
Citing? I haven't seen much of that, but go ahead, just make the claim.
That's your problem. I do cite my arguments.
Doesn't your answer have to at least add up or is that not a requirement for you? As far a sources go, I'm the one who provides the multiple translations for the verse, the Arabic text of the verse, the tafsir for the verses, and even some related hadiths if desired. Me. Not you. Me.
And I've already told you that I do not often consider traditional "Tafsir" or "Hadiths". I also provided verses with Arabic translations.
I said translators, not tafsir. Pay attention. Stop flubbing it.
they translate it according to the "Tafsir" of Ibn Kathir and the likes.
Are you insane or something?. I'm the guy who has provided the most sources, you have provided the most imagination.
See above.
Are you just trying to parrot what I say and then swap it around for no particularly good reason? It doesn't work. Try something else.
No.
Thank you.
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Oh, I completely understand, regardless of my "dummy"-ness. I agree the truth is inside of us. However, I do not see how this means it is impossible for the truth to be elsewhere, in order to help us find the truth within. I asked a simple question regarding the Bible - assuming you believe it is, at some point, from God. If you do not, then disregard my question and we will continue the current discussion.
Do yo want the truth? The truth is beyond words. Finding the truth is directly proportional to the amount of falsehoods one identifies. Truth can never truly be put into words sufficiently, because the truth isn't something we invented. But falsehoods can certainly be perfectly described by words because we invented falsewords, and we used our own words to do so. Therefore, falsehoods easliy fit into words. The truth isn't something that is found, because it's always right next to you. But, if you think it's something else, then you will search and search, to no avail.
Again, look above. The truth is inherently within us, which we do need to "find." We (can) do this by getting help from an external source that also contains the truth. But this seems to offend you.
. It doesn't offend me, what I said apparently flew completely over your head, based on the direction of your response. No biggie.Pure subjectivity. The thing you need to understand is, there are some people with beliefs - yes, actual individual beliefs that differ from others! Yes, some concepts can be found anywhere, but we believe the quran is the direct word of God so we choose to follow it, Others don't, fine. This seems to deeply bother you. You seem to rejoice in statements like "but when it comes to deeper wisdom, I could blow the Quran away."
To you are your beliefs, to me are mine. Sorry if this bothers you.
Heh, i show you things. You don't like them? Fine. Doesn't bother me at all. I show things, and generally, people here are the ones who get upset, not me. So why would you try to make me out as being bothered in anyway? I meant what I said. The Quran, from a spiritual perspective, is rather childish. For example, yes, I know it's supposed to be a warning, but it can't even seem to go more than 20 or 30 verses without mentioning punishment and reward. and if they reject guidance.....and if they accept guidance.....over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I remember thinking, geez, would you shut up already? I heard you the first time. ;D Seems like in many suras, he might run out of real points to make, so he always uses the threats and rewards, and long descriptions of them as a filler of sorts to fill out the sura
Now, while it mentions some good social rules (and maybe some not so good ones, depending on who you talk to), these rules are not what I would qualify as wisdom. They are common sense thinking from someone who seemed to want to create a social system of fairness. But I can't find anything deep or esoteric in the Quran. What verses of the Quran would you consider to be wisdom? For the most part, the Quran is nothing but a constant repeat of the same basic ideas that are merely repeated in different but similar ways. Those ideas are.
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There is only one God, and Muhammad is his last and most prominent messenger
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If you reject guidance, you'll drink molten lava. And you will cry out to the people that you see in paradise for a drink, and they will tell you that they are not allowed to help you. And your face will be burned, and then healed so that it can be re-burned. And Allah will rebuild you so that he can subject you to the torture of hell.
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If you accept guidance, you will be in paradise with rivers of wine that doesn't make you hung over, and gardens and couches, and (ahem) companions who nether man nor jinn have (ahem) touched, and you will wear green silk and silver bracelets, and apparently, you will see those in hell who's fate was different than your's and you will rejoice that you did not make the same mistakes. And you will feel vindicated and justified (your breast healed)
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Christians worship 3 Gods, the father the mother and the son. They are wrong and are going to hell for associating partners with Allah. And they have said a monstrous charge by claiming God had sex with Mary from behind in the missionary position, and that God has taken a human wife and son.
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Jesus was not crucified, God only made it look that way to deceive the Jews, after he had already saved Jesus and lifted him up. So the issue between Christians and Jews is settled, and both should be Muslims.
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Jews have always been rejectors and will surely go to hell as well.
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Both the Christians and Jews have purposefully corrupted their scriptures and the Quran is the only thing that is valid.
Fight the unbelievers, and spread the religion for Allah's sake until Allah's law rules all.
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Social recommendations and laws, including the infamous inheritance laws.
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Ideas of how Allah created everything and how things operate.
I'd say that's most of it right there. That's essentially the message of the Quran
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I read some mystics, and then went back and read the NT, and suddenly it was an entirely different book. Almost made me giggle.
Does it still contain the same errors? How did it almost make you "giggle"? You sound like a Sufi Muslim.
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Does it still contain the same errors? How did it almost make you "giggle"? You sound like a Sufi Muslim.
I am probably similar. Sufis have some interesting things to say, although they didn't get most of their concepts from the Quran because the Quran does not have deep concepts in it. They mostly borrowed from eastern thought.
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although they didn't get most of their concepts from the Quran because the Quran does not have deep concepts in it.
The Quran is all about deep concepts. You can ask one of them.
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I'd say that's most of it right there. That's essentially the message of the Quran
Nope.
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Well, perhaps you can give me a few deep concepts.
Even the fanatic Christians admit to deep concepts in the Quran. It'd be a waste of time explaining them to you.
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I am probably similar. Sufis have some interesting things to say, although they didn't get most of their concepts from the Quran because the Quran does not have deep concepts in it. They mostly borrowed from eastern thought.
You did not answer the questions.
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The core message of the Quran is in 6151-160.
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there aren't any to waste your time with. I've read it.
Billions have read it and found it full it full beauty, deep concepts etc.
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Who?
Many missionaries.