the biggest one of them did it
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Salaams All,
i think its all about their killing of their eldest children.
Abraham was the only one to stand against this act-thus saved Moses from slaughter.
For standing against this very act and telling them off, the word reaches their leader and he summons Abraham to explain himself, for going against their pious act. But Abraham explains The big man is the one who is keeping up the impious way and he should explain himself and they go blue in the face.
Although the killings then stop - but the big man never is reprimanded for his evil and the Israelites hush it all up until Moses comes after the forty years - thirty he spends with Pharaoh and another ten in midyan.
I think,
God Bless All.
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Peace Samia,
QXP is an Exposition, not a literal translation. It tries to present the Quranic message and the Arabic defintions used, Dr.Shabbir tried to understand the verse in a way that did not point out to Abraham lying as Prophets are rolemodels.
I agree with your translation and I had the same argument, my understanding is that "The biggest one did it" means that Abraham wanted to point out that the biggest one must have allowed it if he truly had power. But this understanding would create the question if this would only enforce the "power" of the biggest one compared to the other statues/idols in the eyes of Abraham's people.
Thus I was partially convinced by Dr.Shabbir's understanding.
Parwez's exposition is more logical in some ways
(For Abraham the time had come to achieve the purpose for which he had done all this. If he had given a simple reply like "Why are you behaving so innocently in asking me all this. Had I not forewarned you how I was going to deal with your deities?? This would surely have aroused people's feelings and the truth would not have manifested itself.) Abraham said, "This may be looked into later; but for the present just reflect over it. You believe that your deities possess lots of powers to fulfill the wishes of their followers and destroy their enemies. In your opinion the powers of the biggest one are unlimited. Now all this has happened in his presence. Why did he not stop the one who has done this by employing his might and saving all the other deities from destruction?"
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Yes Yasin, I understand, but I do not think this is the right way to confirm a principle no matter how noble it is. I personally do not see that he was lying, but rather mocking or it's sarcasm. He knew they knew he did it, because he said he would destroy them
2157 "And by God, I have planned to deal with your idols when you turn back and leave the temple?.
This is very normal language when you want to explain by practice the foolishness of something someone holds as truth.
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Explorer
There is no lie.
Please read up to verse 65. There you understand the point Abraham is making.
He said, 'No; it was this great one of them that did it. Question them; if they are able to speak!'
So they returned one to another, and they said, 'Surely it is you who are the evildoers.'
Then they were utterly put to confusion saying, 'Very well indeed thou knowest these do not speak.'
Please be reminded of the following
So high exalted be God, the true King! And hasten not with the Koran ere its revelation is accomplished unto thee; and say, 'O my Lord, increase me in knowledge.'
Hati
hati
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The message there is that all the messengers are fallible.
I think he was being sarcastic, more like 'will you look at yourselves'
I don't think the rasool is fallible because of its nature.
QXP is an Exposition, not a literal translation. It tries to present the Quranic message and the Arabic defintions used, Dr.Shabbir tried to understand the verse in a way that did not point out to Abraham lying as Prophets are rolemodels.
Prophets are also human.
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^ That shows nothing. 2156 refers to God.
Prophets have decieved, and they have been rebuked for it.
Hi Br,
So Abraham being a witness can only be that he was around when the heavens and the earth was created - how else can he be a witness? very unusual to my understandings.
2156 He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Sustainer of the heavens and the earth, Who initiated them from nothing. I am of those who bear witness to this truth ."
God Bless.
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Hi Br,
So Abraham being a witness can only be that he was around when the heavens and the earth was created - how else can he be a witness? very unusual to my understandings.
2156 He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Sustainer of the heavens and the earth, Who initiated them from nothing. I am of those who bear witness to this truth ."
God Bless.
003.052
YUSUFALI When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples "We are Allah's helpers We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
PICKTHAL But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
SHAKIR But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said We are helpers (in the way) of Allah We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.003.053
YUSUFALI "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
PICKTHAL Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).
SHAKIR Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the messenger, so write us down with those who bear witness.005.082
YUSUFALI Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians" because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
PICKTHAL Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
SHAKIR Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.005.083
YUSUFALI And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth they pray "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
PICKTHAL When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messengers, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses.
SHAKIR And when they hear what has been revealed to the messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth). -
Hi Br,
So Abraham being a witness can only be that he was around when the heavens and the earth was created - how else can he be a witness? very unusual to my understandings.
2156 He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Sustainer of the heavens and the earth, Who initiated them from nothing. I am of those who bear witness to this truth ."
2156
Khalifa
He said, "Your only Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, who created them. This is the testimony to which I bear witness.
Yusuf Ali
He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing) and I am a witness to this (Truth).
"Progressive Muslims"
He said "No, your lord is the Lord of heavens and earth, the One who initiated them. And I bear witness to such."http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat21_files/21_56.gif
Abraham's "bearing witness" to the truth.
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Salaams Br?s,
Br. OP,
Some one there is asked to be a witness to a real situation;
We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims (those who are peaceful).
They are asking the lord to bear witness to their following the messenger.
Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the messenger, so write us down with those who bear witness.
Now they are asking the lord to bear witness to them accepting the revelation.
And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth they pray "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
And from all the above someone else is being asked to witness a certain event.
And Br.DA,
How on earth does a person witness his own revelation? I think facts are stronger when it?s some one other witnessing.
2156 He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Sustainer of the heavens and the earth, Who initiated them from nothing. I am of those who bear witness to this truth ."
So this translation doesn?t make sense as Abraham is saying he is a witness to the creation of the heaven???
Or he is saying he bears witness to this fact that his lord created the heavens ??..In both cases he isn?t a very weighty witness in any court room on earth ? no evidence!
God Bless.
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Salaams Br?s,
Br. OP,
Some one there is asked to be a witness to a real situation;
They are asking the lord to bear witness to their following the messenger.
Now they are asking the lord to bear witness to them accepting the revelation.And from all the above someone else is being asked to witness a certain event.
And Br.DA,
How on earth does a person witness his own revelation? I think facts are stronger when it?s some one other witnessing.
So this translation doesn?t make sense as Abraham is saying he is a witness to the creation of the heaven???
Or he is saying he bears witness to this fact that his lord created the heavens ??..In both cases he isn?t a very weighty witness in any court room on earth ? no evidence!
God Bless.
if a person cannot be witness to his own revelation ,then what about Quran's authenticity.What is the evidence that it is God's word?
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Salaams Allen,
since childhood we live our lives and for all our actions we receive reactions - we know a lot of these and when someone says the same or even a little more wouldn't you think highly of them, whether you call them God or something other- but with the greatest admiration?
So where was/is the evidence?
In our experiences!
God Bless.
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Salaams Brs,
Br. OP,
Some one there is asked to be a witness to a real situation;
They are asking the lord to bear witness to their following the messenger.
Now they are asking the lord to bear witness to them accepting the revelation.And from all the above someone else is being asked to witness a certain event.
And Br.DA,
How on earth does a person witness his own revelation? I think facts are stronger when its some one other witnessing.
So this translation doesnt make sense as Abraham is saying he is a witness to the creation of the heaven
Or he is saying he bears witness to this fact that his lord created the heavens ..In both cases he isnt a very weighty witness in any court room on earth no evidence!
God Bless.
The example in the verses I posted are believers bearing witness to the truth, as DArgento put it. Naturally, these disciples didn't have infinite knowledge, allowing them to verify the whole scripture (37 - notice that the most knowledgeable still have a faith position, 4143 - see that the Quranic message which is still partly allegorical/unknown today has been said to previous messengers) and hence, their bearing of witness MUST, absolutely MUST be based on inferences (i.e. A is verified to be true, B is verified to be true, C, D, etc, etc, thus Z which we haven't seen or have no means of verification is true since A-Y are assuredly verified to the point of certainty, and Z is from the same source), and this is definitely possible for those with a messenger around them. It of course, has a base in faith.
Same thing, with Abraham. Maybe it's my preconceptions, but I really can't believe that Abraham was around, despite being a human being, despite the sheer fact that man came from Earth, and so on, and so on.
There are two types of witness here - a) "I bear witness that Person X did Y" and b) "I bear witness that Person X told me that he did Y". I believe this is a case of the latter, same with them messengers. Remember that Abraham's faith was personally completely certain, zero doubt in it, based on the story of birds. Whose courtroom are we talking about, humans, or God's? I believe it would be rather weighty evidence in the latter, given 1736 and the bird's story.
if a person cannot be witness to his own revelation ,then what about Quran's authenticity.What is the evidence that it is God's word?
Hello, Leo ;D
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if a person cannot be witness to his own revelation ,then what about Quran's authenticity.What is the evidence that it is God's word?
You either believe it or you don't. It's a personal adventure...It's hard to prove that to someone (let alone in a single post ahem), because we think differently and have a unique gene. But in the grandest scheme of things does it matter? Remember God is the beginning, so everything stems from God. If quran is sending a good message why would you not follow it? I follow good messages everywhere... whether it's a t.v. show, organized religions, bible, movies etc...
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Sister Samia, should I take this translation seriously or think just in hurry of attending to the post you pasted it?
You're right, I copied it from Yasin's post, because my intention was not based on the exact translation. It is not accurate, but not wrong.
It should be And by God I will plan a plot to your idols when you have gone away and turned your backs (to them).
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Now Sister why have you added (to them)? They all are sitting under the open sky at night. One man is talking to a group of men. They will go/turn away from him. And it is told that when they turned away from him then he went to the temple/idols and did what he did that night.
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Salaam mazhar
I understood that after they eave "them, i.e the statutes" of what happened afterwards He destroyed the statutes when nobody was there.
According to how you understand it, I think it should have been "if" not "after". Or maybe I did not get your point?
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Then what is the opinion/understanding of the Sustainer Lord of Worlds?
{There was no response/answer} Then he moved his eyes in the stars.
This is the scene of night. They are under the open sky. One can move his eyes in the stars only at night when stars are visible. To say that these words mean ?he looked into the sky thoughtfully? is merely playing foul with the words of the Book. Traditionalist did it to lend support to a so called hadith of Bukhari.
And said to them, ?I am dismayed/disappointed/fed up?
And for that they turned away from him and walked away?
{ }
?And I swear by Allah that I will do something with your idols after you have turned and gone away from me?. He had used a word which should have reflected to them that he will do something mischievous from their point of view. {Refer 2157}?And when they had turned/gone away from him then he went to the lords of them and said, ?What is the matter you don?t eat anything?
What is the matter with you that you don?t speak?
And then upon them he started striking with right hand?
{Refer 3787-92}?And resultantly he broke them into pieces except the one who was bigger for those people so that those people my approach/return to him? {Refer 2158}
Sister Samia, I hope the point has been clarified.