Under what circumstances believer can lie
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Salaam Brothers and Sisters,
When do believer allowed to lie;
Quran does not categorically say not to lie. It does indirectly, prohibits lying in the following verse;
The Major Commandments
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
If Quran did categorically asked us not to lie then there would have been contradiction in the Quran. But Quran reassures us that there is no contradiction;
Proof of Divine Authorship
Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
The Prophets of God had to lie twice in the Quran to make point to the disbelievers. In both situations they were in an oppressive situation;
Joseph Keeps His Brother
When he provided them with their provisions, he placed the drinking cup in his brother's bag, then an announcer announced "The owners of this caravan are thieves."
Abraham Proves His Point
He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."
The word for oppression in Arabic is FITNATU geometric value of 935 as follows;
Fi=80, Tie=400*2=800, Na=50, Hu=5. Thus 800+80+50+5=935.
When we concatenate 935, 70 and 63, geometric value of fitnatu, verse 70 and verse 63 respectively we get 9357063, which, is exactly, 492477 * 19. This confirmed the fact that the prophets had to lie because of oppression. Elsewhere Quran tells us that oppression is worse then murder;
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
Kind Regards
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Joseph didn't lie because of "oppression", he was the bloody king of Egypt! From what I see, he lied because of his emotional attachment to his brother, but it was also part of God's greater plan.
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The word for oppression in Arabic is FITNATU geometric value of 935 as follows;
Fi=80, Tie=400*2=800, Na=50, Hu=5. Thus 800+80+50+5=935.
When we concatenate 935, 70 and 63, geometric value of fitnatu, verse 70 and verse 63 respectively we get 9357063, which, is exactly, 492477 * 19. This confirmed the fact that the prophets had to lie because of oppression. Elsewhere Quran tells us that oppression is worse then murder;
So if I want to find out if Moses did a murder under oppression then can I do this?
935+40 = 975 (not divisible by 19).
2040 "That your sister should follow, and say "Shall I guide you to a person who will nurse him" Thus We returned you to your mother, so that she may be pleased and not be sad. And you killed a person, but We saved you from harm and We tested you greatly. So it was that you stayed with the people of Midyan for many years, then you came here by fate O Moses."
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Salaam Brothers and Sisters,
When do believer allowed to lie;
Quran does not categorically say not to lie. It does indirectly, prohibits lying in the following verse;
The Major Commandments
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
If Quran did categorically asked us not to lie then there would have been contradiction in the Quran. But Quran reassures us that there is no contradiction;
3370 O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth.
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So if I want to find out if Moses did a murder under oppression then can I do this?
935+40 = 975 (not divisible by 19).
2040 "That your sister should follow, and say "Shall I guide you to a person who will nurse him" Thus We returned you to your mother, so that she may be pleased and not be sad. And you killed a person, but We saved you from harm and We tested you greatly. So it was that you stayed with the people of Midyan for many years, then you came here by fate O Moses."
Salaam Explorer,
I believe Moses killed because of his anger, not opression. The code I have presented is for lieing. Thus the two verses. The reason I did that was because I could not found complete answer to why the prophets lied, like you I believed lieing was a big sin. 7431, point 4 RK's QT says that the miracle of 19 removes traces of doubt. Therefore I used this method to establish that under oppression one can lie. Why did I use "Oppression" as a triger, this was because it says somewhere in the Quran that Opression is worse then murder, hense I used this word for my code.
Now about Moses and him killing a man, what doubts do you have about this incidence and why. To me it was an accident Moses did not realise how strong he was etc, and the verses explain all the circumstances very clearly thus there is no need for the code. Hence the reason it is not divisible by 19.
Regards
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Please don't be so silly as to think Allah leaves out very basic commandments in his quran.
Moses vs Pharaoh
Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses, and let him implore his Lord. I worry lest he corrupts your religion, or spreads evil throughout the land."
Moses said, "I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord, from every arrogant one who does not believe in the Day of Reckoning."
God Guides Not the Liars
A believing man among Pharaoh's people, who was concealing his belief, said, "How can you kill a man just for saying, `My Lord is GOD,' and he has shown you clear proofs from your Lord? If he is a liar, that is his problem, and if he is truthful, you benefit from his promises. Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar.
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Please don't be so silly as to think Allah leaves out very basic commandments in his quran.
Moses vs Pharaoh
Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses, and let him implore his Lord. I worry lest he corrupts your religion, or spreads evil throughout the land."
Moses said, "I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord, from every arrogant one who does not believe in the Day of Reckoning."
God Guides Not the Liars
A believing man among Pharaoh's people, who was concealing his belief, said, "How can you kill a man just for saying, `My Lord is GOD,' and he has shown you clear proofs from your Lord? If he is a liar, that is his problem, and if he is truthful, you benefit from his promises. Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar.
OPF,
My argument is that there is no contridiction in the Quran then why does prophets lied in those two circumstances, and I am sticking with my argument, that lieing is not totally forbidden for a believer, because under extreme circumstances like oppression one can lie like I proved above.
Now regarding (402 and ..Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar.. The word surley here makes me think that this new believer was not sure, he was a new believer and he was not familiar with all the laws thus the word "Surley" used above.. Therefore this statement cannot be taken as Gospal..
Regards
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242 And do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.
Confound means to confuse or to throw into disorder.
So when it says And do not confound the truth.. Is this truth specific or general.. To clarify this when we take the gv of Quran 382 and concatenate with the chapter and verse above the number is completely multiple of 19. This proves that the Truth above is the Quran and when it says nor keep the truth secret, it is talking about disbelievers who hide the truth in the Quran to keep their face and reputation a well known fact..
382 2 42 = 20118 x 19 or 2235 / 3 Position 3 clarifies and confirms attribute to an entity, the entity above is Quran and attribute which clarifies is the Truth..
Therefore 242 is not not a general statement telling believers not to lie but a specific statement telling us not to hide truth in the Quran..
Regards
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It is implicating that nobody should mix the Quran/truth with lies.
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Peace Ijaz, everyone,
Joseph Keeps His Brother
When he provided them with their provisions, he placed the drinking cup in his brother's bag, then an announcer announced "The owners of this caravan are thieves."The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
Abraham Proves His Point
He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."This is certainly not a lie. This is using irony as a rhetoric device. When I tell you "it was a cool 45 degrees C in the shade", this is obviously not a lie because everyone knows that this is not what I meant. It is a device to make you think more about how hot it is. It provokes a "wait a minute" kind of response as opposed to a "so what" kind. This is a normal rhetoric device that people use and it is not a lie.
For example, if I came to your computer and smashed all the number keys on your keyboard and I just left the 1 and 9. Knowing that I criticize your beloved numerology codes, you ask me if I did this with your numbers. I would reply, "it is the big 19 who did it. Go ask your Code 19, if it can speak". Well...you get the picture. Who knows, you may realize your folly or you may do like the people of Ibrahim. In this case you might "ask" your Code 19 by trying my name concatenated with the date of the incident and err... unfortnately it doesn't add up to a 19 divisible. But hey you add the missing 4 because your computer is a Pentium 4 and now it adds up to a 19 divisible!!! So this confirms to you that I must have done it. We are in the information age not the stone age (for some at least) so as you can see modern idolators are getting more and more creative and modern day idols can be made to appear to "answer"!
The word for oppression in Arabic is FITNATU geometric value of 935 as follows;
Good so you know very well that 7431 is clearly saying that the counting of 19 is ONLY an oppression/"fitna". Who is counting 19 everywhere? Not me.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace all
Well explained bro Ayman.
4135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.
You can't even lie for yourself, your parents, or your relatives.
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peace all
Well explained bro Ayman.
4135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.
You can't even lie for yourself, your parents, or your relatives.
We are encouraged not to lie, however, where does it catogaricaly ban us from lieing in the Quran, no where, because if it did then that would have been contridiction to prophets who lied, and this is not possible.
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peace all
in some circumstances we are allowed to hide our believes - which is to lie
16-106 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
Concerning abraham, i wouldn't say he was lying, imo its irony. actually according to the verse above he had authorization to lie in this case, he clearly was in danger. but abraham was stronger than that - one of the reasons he was a prophet i guess and not just one of us...
lk
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peace all
in some circumstances we are allowed to hide our believes - which is to lie
16-106 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
Concerning abraham, i wouldn't say he was lying, imo its irony. actually according to the verse above he had authorization to lie in this case, he clearly was in danger. but abraham was stronger than that - one of the reasons he was a prophet i guess and not just one of us...
lk
Thank's lk, this is more in line with what I am thinking as well..
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Peace Ijaz, everyone,
The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
This is certainly not a lie. This is using irony as a rhetoric device. When I tell you "it was a cool 45 degrees C in the shade", this is obviously not a lie because everyone knows that this is not what I meant. It is a device to make you think more about how hot it is. It provokes a "wait a minute" kind of response as opposed to a "so what" kind. This is a normal rhetoric device that people use and it is not a lie.
For example, if I came to your computer and smashed all the number keys on your keyboard and I just left the 1 and 9. Knowing that I criticize your beloved numerology codes, you ask me if I did this with your numbers. I would reply, "it is the big 19 who did it. Go ask your Code 19, if it can speak". Well...you get the picture. Who knows, you may realize your folly or you may do like the people of Ibrahim. In this case you might "ask" your Code 19 by trying my name concatenated with the date of the incident and err... unfortnately it doesn't add up to a 19 divisible. But hey you add the missing 4 because your computer is a Pentium 4 and now it adds up to a 19 divisible!!! So this confirms to you that I must have done it. We are in the information age not the stone age (for some at least) so as you can see modern idolators are getting more and more creative and modern day idols can be made to appear to "answer"!
Good so you know very well that 7431 is clearly saying that the counting of 19 is ONLY an oppression/"fitna". Who is counting 19 everywhere? Not me.
Peace,
Ayman
The rhetoric he used is still a lie, per se. Are you saying it was an admission of guilt?
The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
God's plan has no deception. Misguidance, yes, but deception, no -479.
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Salaam OPF,
The rhetoric he used is still a lie, per se. Are you saying it was an admission of guilt?
I agree with that.
God's plan has no deception. Misguidance, yes, but deception, no -479.
And I totally agree with this;
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
Kind Regards
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Attention is also invited
019041
YUSUFALI (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham He was a man of Truth, a prophet.
PICKTHAL And make mention (O Muhammad) in the Scripture of Abraham. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet.
SHAKIR And mention Ibrahim in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet. -
Attention is also invited
019041
YUSUFALI (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham He was a man of Truth, a prophet.
PICKTHAL And make mention (O Muhammad) in the Scripture of Abraham. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet.
SHAKIR And mention Ibrahim in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet.Thanks, I stand corrected. But how does that work against the original charge? Even though Abraham said the large idol did it, he got burnt, or they attempted to do so, was that an indirect admission of guilt?
The plan was god's plan and not Youssef's plan as clear from 1276. Youssef revealed himself to his brother in 1269 prior to the whole episode. Since we don't know how the item went missing, Youssef could have indeed made his brother really take the missing item as part of the god's plan.
There is still an element of deception there, towards the other brothers and every one else of the court.