question about quran
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peace
actually that's what i hear from them, that mihammad was perfect and the best and is the perfect example we should follow, why, well since muhammad was on such a high level of spirituality, that he was able to recieve the message, that he killed his ego, that he didn't speak out of desire, and all that he did and said (mentioned in hadith), we should (or must) follow. and they post verses from quran, about obeying the messenger, him being a great example, him ordering things on his own, him saying 'if you want to obey God, then follow me' (something like that)...
but i think they made up most of the stuff about him anyway. i mean i don't know why muhammad's personal life has anything to do with religion, who cares how he ate, walked, slept... i don't think God puts much emphesis on that, from the quran i can see that what's in the heart is more important.
but i sometimes don't know what to say to them (hadith followers),
could show me where in the quran it warns agains this please?Saying that any human is perfect or flawless is ridiculous. We follow Muhammad by following his message, the quran. Not 7th century Arab traditions.
Exactly, even assuming all that is true, there is a reason it is not in the quran because it is not necessary for our guidance. Sleeping on one side as opposed to the other has nothing to do with our guidance.
7750 Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold? (make sure to read 771-49 to see who "they" is referring to in 7750)
456 These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?
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peace
actually that's what i hear from them, that mihammad was perfect and the best and is the perfect example we should follow, why, well since muhammad was on such a high level of spirituality, that he was able to recieve the message, that he killed his ego, that he didn't speak out of desire, and all that he did and said (mentioned in hadith), we should (or must) follow. and they post verses from quran, about obeying the messenger, him being a great example, him ordering things on his own, him saying 'if you want to obey God, then follow me' (something like that)...
but i think they made up most of the stuff about him anyway. i mean i don't know why muhammad's personal life has anything to do with religion, who cares how he ate, walked, slept... i don't think God puts much emphesis on that, from the quran i can see that what's in the heart is more important.
but i sometimes don't know what to say to them (hadith followers),
could show me where in the quran it warns agains this please?Dear Nerspi
See how did we get this Quran word of Allah ?
Allah did not come directly to us.
A person told us first that he was a prophet ,----- we believe
Then he tells us that this revelation which has been given to me ----- we believe
When he tells us I have been told how to say prayers ---- We reject.
Quran is sort of constituition.While Sunna is in place of Penal code.
Constituition of a country says the life of every citizen must be protected but it will not tell the methodology.It is given in penal code /legistation how to protect.Constituition = Quran
Legistation = SunnaQuran tells = say prayer
Prophet tells = how to say it
Quran tells = perform Hajj
Prophet tells = how to perform Hajj
No one says that prophet's eating ,sleeping ,laughing ,weeping has be followed.If Quran aloners are put in one room and ask them to say prayer ,every one will be prostating in a different direction.
-one -----east- one --- west
- one - north
- one - south
- one - east south
- one - east north
- one - south west
- one -west north
- one - face up
- one - face down
-one will be hanging with ceiling fan - one will be hanging upsidown
You will see a complete state of anarchy.
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Dear Nerspi
See how did we get this Quran word of Allah ?
Allah did not come directly to us.
A person told us first that he was a prophet ,----- we believe
Then he tells us that this revelation which has been given to me ----- we believe
When he tells us I have been told how to say prayers ---- We reject.
Quran is sort of constituition.While Sunna is in place of Penal code.
Constituition of a country says the life of every citizen must be protected but it will not tell the methodology.It is given in penal code /legistation how to protect.Constituition = Quran
Legistation = SunnaQuran tells = say prayer
Prophet tells = how to say it
Quran tells = perform Hajj
Prophet tells = how to perform Hajj
No one says that prophet's eating ,sleeping ,laughing ,weeping has be followed.If Quran aloners are put in one room and ask them to say prayer ,every one will be prostating in a different direction.
-one -----east- one --- west
- one - north
- one - south
- one - east south
- one - east north
- one - south west
- one -west north
- one - face up
- one - face down
yeah
Correct logic
Allah did not come directly to us.
We are born and hear/see this book called a quran which claims to be from God - we do not believe without verifying. After verifying, we believe.
This book tells us it was revealed to one "Ahmad" or "Muhammad" - we believe.
Alongside that, it informs us of many facts and gives guidance - we believe.
The Quran is a constitution, penal code and all the branches of government combined. It has checks and balances, a central authority, and self-preservation. Some unconstitutional leaders may pass laws under dictatorial authority but these by-laws are based on hearsay and have a weak foundation and would be thrown out in court.
Quran tells = Adhere to salat
Quran tells = Adhere to hajj
Quran does not tell Do standing and sitting exercises 5 times a day
Quran does not tell Walk around a cube 7 times while reciting the pagan chant
Quran does tell This is a fully detailed book, where the truth has been made distinct from falsehood, and in which hadeeth after this will they believe?Constitution = Quran
Legislation = QuranIf Sunnis & Shia and others are put in one room and ask them to say prayer ,every one will be prostating in a different direction.
-one Iranian Shia -----east, invoking Ali- one Egyptian Sunni --- west, invoking Muhammad's blessed intercession
- one African Sunni - north, mixes tradition with deen (as do the others)
- one hardline, yet clueless British convert- south
- one - east south
- one - east north
- one - south west
- one -west north
- one Malaysian astronaut- face up (http//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/27/wspace27.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/27/ixworld.html)
- one female Malaysian astronaut- face down (men cannot pray in the same region as women, there must be a barrier and what better barrier than the whole bloody Earth... This is my official fatwa on this issue stamp - Though if the woman breastfeeds each of the men praying, she may share the same hemisphere of Earth as the men because she will become their mother)
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peace
Joe, Navid, i agree
Allen, i have to ask, why didn't God Himself describe more details in the quran, regarding prayer, hajj...?
is it that hard to say more words? would 2 more pages be too much?
why would He leave that for a human to decide?
besides muhammad didn't invent the prayer or hajj, so why do we have to do it his way? -
peace
Joe, Navid, i agree
Allen, i have to ask, why didn't God Himself describe more details in the quran, regarding prayer, hajj...?
is it that hard to say more words? would 2 more pages be too much?
why would He leave that for a human to decide?
besides muhammad didn't invent the prayer or hajj, so why do we have to do it his way?Dear
This is wrong to say that the prophet told these details on his own.Again these were from Almighty Allah.Why it was not mentioned in the Quran ,the exact cause only Allah can tell.
As I have mentioned earlier
If prophet says = I am prophet = we accept.Right ?
If Prophet says this word of God (Al-Quran) = we accept .Right ?
Once prophet says this is the method of prayer or Hajj taught to me by Allah = we reject .Reason ???
If he is a liar ,then nothing is acceptable.Neither Quran nor his prophethood.
If he is true and honest what is the reason for rejection of the third option.
Another thing please do clear
There is a lot of difference between
-- being Against Quran
--being More than Quran
These two concepts are not synonymous.People usually think that
"more than Quran is equivalent to against the Quran".
I give the example.
Quran says that prayer should be said but does not tell us number of Rakka.If prophet tells us that it is- Two in the morning
-four afternoon
-four asr
-three maghrab
-four isha
How does it become against the Quran.You can say it is "just more than quran" or explanation of Quranic order to say prayers how to do it. These Rakka do not antagonise any decree of the Quran.
Rest assure all orders of the Holy Prophet concerning Ibaada are told by Almight Allah to him.These were not his self cooked orders.
If he was a wicked person (maazallah) ,then book given by him loses all of its authenticity right away.
One word of caution;
Yes one thing can be questioned if something is related to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as his saying ,whether it is really his saying or not.
Once proved then a muslim is bound to act upon it as any other order or Islam.
So many traditions which people produce as a bias against traditions are fake and wrong.
- Two in the morning
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The quran says to not follow any other source of divine guidance/law. The quran also says it is detailed and clearly explained. If it doesn't have some piece of information that you or the hadith desire, that does not mean the quran needs extra sources beside it. "hadith has detail x, y, z, the quran doesn't, we must follow hadith" is circular. Allen and co. will never answer to the verses that explicitly state the quran is detailed, clearly explained, complete. They will never answer the verses that say to not follow any other source of divine guidance/law, hadith. The quran is all we need.
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Dear
This is wrong to say that the prophet told these details on his own.Again these were from Almighty Allah.Why it was not mentioned in the Quran ,the exact cause only Allah can tell.
As I have mentioned earlier
If prophet says = I am prophet = we accept.Right ?
If Prophet says this word of God (Al-Quran) = we accept .Right ?
Once prophet says this is the method of prayer or Hajj taught to me by Allah = we reject .Reason ???
If he is a liar ,then nothing is acceptable.Neither Quran nor his prophethood.
If he is true and honest what is the reason for rejection of the third option.
Another thing please do clear
There is a lot of difference between
-- being Against Quran
--being More than Quran
These two concepts are not synonymous.People usually think that
"more than Quran is equivalent to against the Quran".
I give the example.
Quran says that prayer should be said but does not tell us number of Rakka.If prophet tells us that it is- Two in the morning
-four afternoon
-four asr
-three maghrab
-four isha
How does it become against the Quran.You can say it is "just more than quran" or explanation of Quranic order to say prayers how to do it. These Rakka do not antagonise any decree of the Quran.
Rest assure all orders of the Holy Prophet concerning Ibaada are told by Almight Allah to him.These were not his self cooked orders.
If he was a wicked person (maazallah) ,then book given by him loses all of its authenticity right away.
One word of caution;
Yes one thing can be questioned if something is related to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as his saying ,whether it is really his saying or not.
Once proved then a muslim is bound to act upon it as any other order or Islam.
So many traditions which people produce as a bias against traditions are fake and wrong.
Please post authentic hadith instructions on how exactly to perform prayer (i.e. describe Rakka, etc.) or Hajj?
Those things not already mentioned in Qur?an.
Thanks in advance for the info.
- Two in the morning
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Please post authentic hadith instructions on how exactly to perform prayer (i.e. describe Rakka, etc.) or Hajj?
Those things not already mentioned in Qur?an.
Thanks in advance for the info.
What is your criteria of authentic Hadith ?
If it is proved through authentic Hadith that prophet (PBUH) said so ? then you are ready to accept as source of Deen ?? -
What is your criteria of authentic Hadith ?
If it is proved through authentic Hadith that prophet (PBUH) said so ? then you are ready to accept as source of Deen ??There lays the problem that we?re stuck at an impasse until we define authentic?
We can start by agreeing Qur?an is authentic!
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There lays the problem that we?re stuck at an impasse until we define authentic?
We can start by agreeing Qur?an is authentic!
Good point.
- The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
- Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s curse upon the liars.?
- This is the narration of truth, there is no god but God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
PEACE
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i feel that the Quran is clear as to its status- over and over the text says that the Quran is a clear reminder, to be reflected on, recited, and honored. the Quran is clear that it stands for itself, and that its message is of One God, submission to Him, humility, piety, and forgiveness.
i would hope that the more one reads the Quran, the more immersed in its simple, beautiful language one will become.
we are asked to read and reflect. and the Quran itself says often that we should not be proud or arrogant, or assume understand God or know what God knows. so... i think that would take care of the issue of reading the Quran with one's ego, or proudly. if God knew that we were unable to understand the Quran and follow its words, He would not have given it...
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peace all
Hi Nerspi
I think you know that the Holy Quran is divided into 30 parts they call "juz"
You can find that actually in the current Arabic Quran.
The 30 parts is actually composed of 114 chapters so there is nothing omitted nor added.
Salam.
Hatii didn't know that, but they say a human composed it from 30 parts, and that he may have even added some things to it, like 'it can not be changed' or 'we will preserve it' ...
7185 Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which HADITH after this one will they believe?
7750 So in which HADITH after it will they believe?
ok i don't know how they would explain this, but i do know they say quran tell us to follow hadith (when it says to obey the messenger).
at first glance it would seem like a contradiction.
i feel that the Quran is clear as to its status- over and over the text says that the Quran is a clear reminder, to be reflected on, recited, and honored. the Quran is clear that it stands for itself, and that its message is of One God, submission to Him, humility, piety, and forgiveness.
i would hope that the more one reads the Quran, the more immersed in its simple, beautiful language one will become.
we are asked to read and reflect. and the Quran itself says often that we should not be proud or arrogant, or assume understand God or know what God knows. so... i think that would take care of the issue of reading the Quran with one's ego, or proudly. if God knew that we were unable to understand the Quran and follow its words, He would not have given it...
yeah i feel like i learn somethig new everytime i read it, and it becomes more clear if you look at all of it.
there were quite a few things that seemed like a contradicction to me, but reading it more and thinking about it more i saw it's not, it's perfectly clear, and i checked with somke who understand arabic more and i was right, no contradiction.Please post authentic hadith instructions on how exactly to perform prayer (i.e. describe Rakka, etc.) or Hajj?
Those things not already mentioned in Qur?an.
Thanks in advance for the info.
i'd like to know too
This is wrong to say that the prophet told these details on his own.Again these were from Almighty Allah.Why it was not mentioned in the Quran ,the exact cause only Allah can tell.
so... what you're telling us is that... there is more revelation outside of quran. and Allah didn't mention why.
that's nice. so out of all details mentioned in thousands of hadith, from all things covered in there, there is not a single hadith where God says why He didn't mention details of prayers in the quran????? ??? -
i didn't know that, but they say a human composed it from 30 parts, and that he may have even added some things to it, like 'it can not be changed' or 'we will preserve it' ...
The cause is lost. To quote Naik, "Don't argue. You can't, anyway". They can say what they will, but why do they lay claim to a book they don't even believe in? They are hypocrites, as far as I can tell through text.
ok i don't know how they would explain this, but i do know they say quran tell us to follow hadith (when it says to obey the messenger).
at first glance it would seem like a contradiction.
Obviously hadeeth in the Quran has a completely different meaning. I know, music!!! That evil music! It caused all of the world's problems. What an abomination. And TV! Electricity! Ack ack! Kaffir inventions!
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yeah i feel like i learn somethig new everytime i read it, and it becomes more clear if you look at all of it.
there were quite a few things that seemed like a contradicction to me, but reading it more and thinking about it more i saw it's not, it's perfectly clear, and i checked with somke who understand arabic more and i was right, no contradiction.Nerspi
same here. i try to take some time out in the evenings to read the Quran, and am continually struck by its simplicity and clarity, its uncluttered and compassionate urging to worship One God, and to remember the connection. i know i've heard countless Muslims say just that to me before i became a Muslim myself, and i'd always kind of scoff inwardly and doubt. "yeah, sure, it's clear and wonderful. ok... meh."
2115 ~~ 7205-206 ~~ 3030-32 ~~ 10104-109
we are all searching for our return, for truth, for peace. this is what life is ultimately about. the Quran is for me, first and foremost, a clear guide upon the straight path, and an immeasurable mercy.
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ok i don't know how they would explain this, but i do know they say quran tell us to follow hadith (when it says to obey the messenger).
at first glance it would seem like a contradiction.
There's a disconnect between following the compilation of what long chains of people hearing what the prophet said and obeying the messenger. It's not a firm connection at all. And it's not a contradiction at all.
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peace all
so... what you're telling us is that... there is more revelation outside of quran. and Allah didn't mention why.
that's nice. so out of all details mentioned in thousands of hadith, from all things covered in there, there is not a single hadith where God says why He didn't mention details of prayers in the quran????? ???Dear Nerspi
Though I have already answered your question and that should have been sufficient.But probably you did not pay attention.
Just think
A person says
"I am a prophet " we accept
"I have received revelation in the form of Quran " we accept it .'
"I have received revelation about nature of rituals " we REJECT IT.
Can you tell me on what ground you reject it.
If that person is a LIAR ,then nothing should be acceptable from him.
If he is a truthful and he is why to REJECT HIS THIRD CLAIM.
Saying that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not receive extra quranic revelation ,is absolutely wrong.He used to receive extra Quranic revelations.I give you a few examples;EXAMPLE NO. 1
2143
(2143) We had appointed the r qiblah towards which you used to turn your face merely to test who would follow the Messenger and who would turn back. *145 It was indeed a hard test but not for those who had been blessed with Guidance from Allah. Allah will not let go to waste this faith of yours; rest assured that He is full of pity and mercy for mankindHere Allah is saying that "First qibla was appointed by Him". Can you tell me in which verse of the Quran Allah declared this first qibla.It was nothing but "extra quranic " revelation.
EXAMPLE NO 2
3124
(3124) And recall when you said to the believers 'Will it not suffice you that your Lord will aid you by sending down three thousand angelsAt time of battle of Bader the prophet told his companions that Allah will send 3000 angels.Can you let me know in which Verse of the Quran this promise is present.It is "Extra Quranic" revelation
EAMPLE NO; 3
(87) And recall when Allah promised you that one of the two hosts would fall to you,
In this verse Allah is reminding the muslims a promise from Him to them about Kuffaar that one of the two group will join you. Can you show me this promise of Allah is present that Allah is reminding in this verse. It is nothing but 'Extra Quranic"
EXAMPLE NO 4
663
(663) (And this also is note-worthy that) the Prophet had confided a matter to a wife in secret. Then, when she disclosed the secret (to another), and Allah informed the Prophet (of the disclosure of the secret), the Prophet made known (to the wife) part of it and overlooked part of it. So when the Prophet told her (of the disclosure), she asked, "Who informed you of this?" The Prophet said, "I was informed by Him Who knows everything and is All-Aware. " *The prophet told some secret to one his wife which she disclosed. Allah told the prophet about it. She asked who told you .He said ' Aleem /Al kahbeer". Can you tell me in which quranic verse did Allah tell this secret. It was extra-Quranic revelation.
Remember Quran has not used the word s "aleem/khabeer " rather "AL ?Aleem and AL ? Khabeer". The word 'aleeem /khabeer " without "AL ?" can denoter any other informer but Quran has used the words "Al-Aleem and Al-Khabeer " only and only for Allah.EAMPLE NO 5
595
(595) Whatever palm trees you cut down, or whatever you left standing upon their roots, it was only by Allah's leave. *9 And (Allah gave the leave) in order to disgrace the transgressorsOnce the muslims cut the palm trees of the Kuffaar. He Allah says that these were cut with "permission of Allah" . In which verse of the Quran is permission is granted ?? This was extra-quranic revelation.
All these examples point towards "Extra ? Quranic revelation." More over Quran has clearly advised us to "Obey the Prophet"
EVERY MUSLIM IS BOUND TO OBEY THE PROPHET
Look at this verse
3336
(3336) It *65 does not behove a believing man and a believing woman that when Allah and His Messenger have given their decision in a matter, they should exercise an option in that matter of theirs; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Prophet, has indeed strayed into manifest errorThis verse clearly says that Mumineen are bound to obey ANY SORT OF DECISION MADE BY ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET" .
That is why Allah said
3321
(3321) There was indeed the best model for you in the Messenger of Allah, *34 for every such person who looks forward to Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.The prophet is the example to be FOLLOWED.
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peace
Obviously hadeeth in the Quran has a completely different meaning. I know, music!!! That evil music! It caused all of the world's problems. What an abomination. And TV! Electricity! Ack ack! Kaffir inventions!
hehe, and pictures too, i've been acused of shirk because i have pictures.
There's a disconnect between following the compilation of what long chains of people hearing what the prophet said and obeying the messenger. It's not a firm connection at all. And it's not a contradiction at all.
i wasn't trying to say there's a contradiction, just that from those verses (7185,7750...) we can see it says 'no' to hadith, yet some say 'obey the messenger' means 'yes' to hadith, you know.
now allen, i don't know how to answer the examples you posted there, i've heard such examples before, kinda why i started this topic (among others), hope someone here will explain, i'm looking forward to the answer myself.