why so many sects?
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peace
now another thing about quran and why people devide is that although it says it's a clear book and fully detailed and with no contradictions there seems to be 2 different things mentioned in it. says we need tzo follow ones in authority/knowledge. also, if it's that clear, how come those last suras are so unclear(105,106,111...), maybe they're just unclear to me, but how does one explain those suras without asking someone with knowledge or hadith?
and it even says in sura 3 that some verses are not so clear.
so what would be the point in sending a book if people aren't gonna be able to understand it, and if they try to understand it they need to ask someone, but who's to say he's the one with knowledge or saying his opinion?not to mention the differences about way to perform salat, hajj, ramadan even people on this site have, and yet we're all reading the same clear book.
so ok, we know why they devided, now the question would be who's right?whom does God guide? everybody, all muslims, ones who follow only quran and rest who follow hadith, they all ask the same thing of God 16,7. they want to be guided, so... which ones are guided? me? you? they? we all ask for the same thing, yet we all believe different things. many people turn to Him wanting guidence and they come to different conclusions, so which ones are guided?
Your objections and apprehensions are absolutely correct.To have "eemaan" one should have complete satisfaction of mind.This is not only to us,even Prophets may ask for it.Look at this Verse;
(2260) Call to mind the other event also, when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how Thou bringest the dead back to life?" He said "Have you no faith in this?" Abraham humbly replied, "I do believe but I ask this to reassure my heart."
If you get such type of reply
- this is irrelevant
- forget about it
Do such answers satisfy the mind ? Rather they spoil the mind further.
I agree with you there are differences in different groups.But differences are of two types - Fundamental difference like differences between Quran aloners and Traditionalists
- Secondary differences i.e those differences which are found in on certain group.These differences are those of interpretations.It is just like this two doctors who are trained in one instituite and by the same teacher may differ in the diagnosis of one patient.Two judges can differ in opinion about an accused person.This type of difference is seen even among prophets.Read about prophet Haroon PBUH /Prophet Moses (PBUH).Such differences of opinions cannot be taken as 'sectarianism'
Among traditionalists - Do you see any difference in mentioning of 'five pillars of Islam' ?
- Do you see any difference in number of timings of prayers ?
- Do you see any difference in number of Rukka of any prayer ?
- Do you see any difference in number of Sajood of any Rukka
- Do you see any difference in what to recite in the prayer ?
- Do you see any difference in adopting the direction during prayer ?
If you say some tie their hands during prayer some do not.In fact the Holy Prophet adopted both ways.Some are following one way and others the other way.It does not make any difference at all.
Those who highlight these differences as "Sectarianism" are at fault.
On the other hand look at Quran aloners
- No consensus on the timinings of prayers
- No consensus about number of prayers (some three /some two)
- No consensus about the direction during prayers.
- No consensus about nature of 'Sajood"
- How will they perform prayer in congregation -- no consensus.
- These are not "One " even on "Al-Quran" .Is this not very strange ?/
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Let's benchmark Islam through Sunni-ISM. Great
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Peace all, nerspi,
The division of "Islam" lies inevitably in following humans and man-made works. This is a point that I have proven in my article. It has nothing to do with the quran. The quran warns against sects. So no "sect" is right, because splitting into sects goes against the very nature of the quran and islam.
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Salaam Nerspi,
I think that Navid summed it up very well. However, I would still like to explore your enquiries a little further.
ok fine, good post Damon, but it's still not easy, they all devided over a thousand years ago and all claim they're right.
sunnis say we're right, here's a proof from quran, and the rest are a sect
shia say we're right, here's a proof from quran, and the rest are a sect
sufis say we're right, here's a proof from quran, and the rest are a sect
quranaloners say we're right, here's a proof from quran, and the rest are a sect
and so on...And as long as they point the finger of shame at one another while pointing the finger of 'We're the right group' at themselves, then they are all guilty of sectarianism, and hence, guilty of shirk. So as you see Nerspi, it IS that easy. The quran spells it out very clearly. The question is are we paying attention to what it really has to say?
so how can they all have a proof they're right?
I don't see how any of them can have proof that they are 100% correct. It is conceivable to me that all of them may have a small percentage of beneficial knowledge to contribute to the overall big picture. But absolutely none of these sects can logically (and honestly) claim to have the whole thing down pat.
i mean yes they devided for all thhose reasons you mentioned there, but who's to say who's right anymore. hadith followers have scholars who study the material for years if not decades and come to a particular conclusion, and even they differ on some issues sometimes, yet i haven't met or heard of any quran alone scholars, i'd like to, if there are any.
You should keep in mind that the word Scholar is a relative term. What is considered a scholar to a sunni may not be considered a scholar to a shiah or quranist and vice versa. As for myself, I like to read just about all things pertaining to Islam and the quran and I always keep 1736 and 3918 in mind as I'm doing so. In this way, you don't throw out the baby with the bath water and still protect yourself from wholesale indoctrination. Also, I don't believe that any one sect is right as I said above. Some people in each sect maybe right or close to being right on a certain issue while being wrong or close to wrong on another issue. Always keep 1736 and 3918 in mind when considering this.
now another thing about quran and why people devide is that although it says it's a clear book and fully detailed and with no contradictions there seems to be 2 different things mentioned in it. says we need tzo follow ones in authority/knowledge. also, if it's that clear, how come those last suras are so unclear(105,106,111...)
As far as following the ones with authority, I think it is very, very clear...that is if we are talking about 459. Oolee al amr minkum doesn't just mean those in authority...it means those in authority from you all. It means that they are the ones that we have charged with this authority because they have earned our trust that they righteously execute the commands of the Deen for the benefit of all. This isn't necessarily predicated as much on knowledge as it is on their willingness and ability to carry out Allah's commands after due consultation (4210 and 423.
As far as the ones with knowledge are concerned, these are known as the 'Ulema. The term 'Ulema as it is used in the quran has NOTHING to do with so called religious scholars. It applies to those with scientific knowledge; those who have knowledge of the natural sciences such as biology, botany, earth sciences/ecology, etc. I wish I had the direct link, but somewhere on the Tolu-e-Islam Site, G.A. Parvez has a wonderful article on this very issue.
As far as those last suras are concerned, I think you somewhat came to the conclusion of it being unclear to you.
maybe they're just unclear to me,but how does one explain those suras without asking someone with knowledge or hadith?
and it even says in sura 3 that some verses are not so clearIt is not for any of us to explain any of those suras of the quran. GOD says on more than one occasion that HE is the one who explains it to the HONEST and SINCERE SEEKING hearts. Even if I were to give an exposition of any given sura of the quran, I wouldn't call it an explanation, I would say that it is My Understanding.
In 37, it says that some verses are mutashabih and those with a disease in their hearts will chase the understanding of those verses while ignoring the clear cut injunctions in the mukamat verses. The mutashabih verses will be rendered clear to us by Allah, the more we remain honest, sincere and humble and not seek to establish an arbitrary understanding of those verses. It is best to keep 20114 in mind as we ponder on this issue.
so what would be the point in sending a book if people aren't gonna be able to understand it, and if they try to understand it they need to ask someone, but who's to say he's the one with knowledge or saying his opinion?
This question perplexes me because I cannot see where in the quran one can come away with such an understanding. Do you have a reference for this understanding that you have concerning this? I do know that traditional muslims are of this understanding, but I am firmly convinced that it is quranically unfounded.
not to mention the differences about way to perform salat, hajj, ramadan even people on this site have, and yet we're all reading the same clear book.
so ok, we know why they devided, now the question would be who's right?Brother, the differences on these issues have to do with details. All are unified that these things should be done in order to please GOD, but they are disunited as to the how or mechanics of these things. Since the details of most of these issues are not in the quran in the fashion that people would like them to be, it is obvious to me that the details are irrelevent as long as one is sincere when perfoming any devotional act and it is for the pleasure of GOD Alone.
As far as the question of who's right?? GOD Alone is the Only One who is right. It is up to me and you to remain united and allow our respective understandings to gel with one another and try our best to establish this Deen in this life before it is too late for any of us.
whom does God guide? everybody, all muslims, ones who follow only quran and rest who follow hadith, they all ask the same thing of God 16,7. they want to be guided, so... which ones are guided? me? you? they? we all ask for the same thing, yet we all believe different things. many people turn to Him wanting guidence and they come to different conclusions, so which ones are guided?
My brother, the answer to this question is extremely clear. You will find your answer in the quran. If you don't mind the advice, maybe you should give the forum a break and focus on thoroughly Studying the quran. Believe me, if you are sincere in your quest and seek GOD Alone with a sincere heart and study the quran as it should be studied, you will find the answers to the questions that you have.
- Do they not ponder/reflect/meditate over the Qur'an? Had it been the word of any other but God they would surely have found a good deal of variation in it.
Salaam,
Damon. -
peace to all
do you really believe anybody or any group can have it all right ?
Your questioning has been one of the reasons i stepped back from taking quran as the direct word of god even though i still see it as an book inspired by God and a reference. And even if it was the direct word, there'll be always two in this relationship - the giver and the receiver - and what the receiver makes of it.well i hope there is at least one group that has it all right, there's gotta be. i mean we at least have one thing in common, it's just how people interpret certain verses from the quran that makes me ask questions.
On the other hand look at Quran aloners
- No consensus on the timinings of prayers
- No consensus about number of prayers (some three /some two)
- No consensus about the direction during prayers.
- No consensus about nature of 'Sajood"
- How will they perform prayer in congregation -- no consensus.
- These are not "One " even on "Al-Quran" .Is this not very strange ?/
big deal, so we agree to turn in a particular direction while praying in a group.
but seems to me people devided because having their own interpretations about 'obey the messenger'.why do hadith followers say it means to follow details that muhammad did in his personal life that have nothing to do with religion?
and why do quranaloners say it means following the message or anything other then following hadith?i'd like to hear both reasons.
The division of "Islam" lies inevitably in following humans and man-made works. This is a point that I have proven in my article. It has nothing to do with the quran. The quran warns against sects. So no "sect" is right, because splitting into sects goes against the very nature of the quran and islam.
true,
but what would you say to them when they tell you 'it's not man made works, it's what prophet said and did and since he didn't speak out of desire, we have to follow all that since it's the best way to be a muslim'?
also, how do we recognize a sect?, we here say they're a sect and they same about people who don't follow hadith.Salaam Nerspi,
I think that Navid summed it up very well. However, I would still like to explore your enquiries a little further.
And as long as they point the finger of shame at one another while pointing the finger of 'We're the right group' at themselves, then they are all guilty of sectarianism, and hence, guilty of shirk. So as you see Nerspi, it IS that easy. The quran spells it out very clearly. The question is are we paying attention to what it really has to say?
I don't see how any of them can have proof that they are 100% correct. It is conceivable to me that all of them may have a small percentage of beneficial knowledge to contribute to the overall big picture. But absolutely none of these sects can logically (and honestly) claim to have the whole thing down pat.
You should keep in mind that the word Scholar is a relative term. What is considered a scholar to a sunni may not be considered a scholar to a shiah or quranist and vice versa. As for myself, I like to read just about all things pertaining to Islam and the quran and I always keep 1736 and 3918 in mind as I'm doing so. In this way, you don't throw out the baby with the bath water and still protect yourself from wholesale indoctrination. Also, I don't believe that any one sect is right as I said above. Some people in each sect maybe right or close to being right on a certain issue while being wrong or close to wrong on another issue. Always keep 1736 and 3918 in mind when considering this.
As far as following the ones with authority, I think it is very, very clear...that is if we are talking about 459. Oolee al amr minkum doesn't just mean those in authority...it means those in authority from you all. It means that they are the ones that we have charged with this authority because they have earned our trust that they righteously execute the commands of the Deen for the benefit of all. This isn't necessarily predicated as much on knowledge as it is on their willingness and ability to carry out Allah's commands after due consultation (4210 and 423.
As far as the ones with knowledge are concerned, these are known as the 'Ulema. The term 'Ulema as it is used in the quran has NOTHING to do with so called religious scholars. It applies to those with scientific knowledge; those who have knowledge of the natural sciences such as biology, botany, earth sciences/ecology, etc. I wish I had the direct link, but somewhere on the Tolu-e-Islam Site, G.A. Parvez has a wonderful article on this very issue.
As far as those last suras are concerned, I think you somewhat came to the conclusion of it being unclear to you.
It is not for any of us to explain any of those suras of the quran. GOD says on more than one occasion that HE is the one who explains it to the HONEST and SINCERE SEEKING hearts. Even if I were to give an exposition of any given sura of the quran, I wouldn't call it an explanation, I would say that it is My Understanding.
In 37, it says that some verses are mutashabih and those with a disease in their hearts will chase the understanding of those verses while ignoring the clear cut injunctions in the mukamat verses. The mutashabih verses will be rendered clear to us by Allah, the more we remain honest, sincere and humble and not seek to establish an arbitrary understanding of those verses. It is best to keep 20114 in mind as we ponder on this issue.
This question perplexes me because I cannot see where in the quran one can come away with such an understanding. Do you have a reference for this understanding that you have concerning this? I do know that traditional muslims are of this understanding, but I am firmly convinced that it is quranically unfounded.
Brother, the differences on these issues have to do with details. All are unified that these things should be done in order to please GOD, but they are disunited as to the how or mechanics of these things. Since the details of most of these issues are not in the quran in the fashion that people would like them to be, it is obvious to me that the details are irrelevent as long as one is sincere when perfoming any devotional act and it is for the pleasure of GOD Alone.
As far as the question of who's right?? GOD Alone is the Only One who is right. It is up to me and you to remain united and allow our respective understandings to gel with one another and try our best to establish this Deen in this life before it is too late for any of us.
My brother, the answer to this question is extremely clear. You will find your answer in the quran. If you don't mind the advice, maybe you should give the forum a break and focus on thoroughly Studying the quran. Believe me, if you are sincere in your quest and seek GOD Alone with a sincere heart and study the quran as it should be studied, you will find the answers to the questions that you have.
- Do they not ponder/reflect/meditate over the Qur'an? Had it been the word of any other but God they would surely have found a good deal of variation in it.
Salaam,
Damon.well they are 100% sure they're right, that's probably why they follow it.
ok, when i say scholar, i just mean someone with great knowledge, someone who studies quran for years (even decades),
but then again, who's to say who has the knowledge, christians study the bible for years and still claim jesus is god and son of god ... and these hf say we have to listen to them and we MUST NOT think for ourselves, we must not come to any conclusions, because that would be speaking out of desire, listening to one's ego...well yeah, some of the last suras i couldn't understand what would be the point of them, what's their meaning, (111 for example). so how would i find out the meaning.
umm... well they (hf) gave me several verses from quran, (can't remember numbers of them now, i think 3336 is one of them), but saying prophet's our example, we have to follow him 'obey the messenger' means just that, to follow him in every small detail possible, that he forbade and allowed things that are not mentioned in quran and that God gave him more revalation that isn't in quran but it's in hadith and we have to follow it...
so i think they came to such understanding based on that. but how can you prove them wrong?it's obvious to me that the details are irrelevent too, i say that to them but they scare my by saying that's what God ordered, (in their minds) God wants us to follow details of muhammad. but yes they do it to please God, to be better muslims, and the bad thing abolut it is that they claim i'll go to hell for not following these hadith.
well yes, God is right, but what did God mean when He said something? i have an idea, but the hf say it's wrong because muhammad was the best to understand it and what he said it means it's written in hadith...
i don't know what to say to them.you're right, thanks, i should study, i try, i'm starting, it's going slowly and that scares me because i have to live with myself every day and still not have all the answers.
thank you all
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Peace "allen",
I give the examples ;
Now there are two sects of non traditionalists ;
1 Quranists who do not believe in RK {and/or that any messengers would come after Muahmmad}
2 RK followers who believe in
-- Rasools can still come
--RK was Rasool of Covenant
-- {not} Quran {but mushaf} is not preserved (Two verses added)
Don't you see two clear sects here also ?? What is the reason ??JK- I added above my corrections in curly parenthesis. Anyways nobody, except those who dont understand the subject, says that the Quran is not preserved BUT we sure do have a different understanding of the Quran than you do. For you the Quran may simply be a written text whilst for us it is A MATHEMATICALLY STRUCTURED BOOK and whatever text resides inside that structure is termed by us as Quran whilst the rest is not. Just cause someone takes a pen and scribbles something into the mushaf(book in which the quran has claimed to be written) doesnt make it Quran. You need to disinguish between Quran and Mushaf. Now dor you question regarding sects/divisions. Yes they may be onsidered so if one or the there stubbornly becomes close minded and is heading towards fascism, relies on unique terms to name his/her group, etc. However though our individual views would be searet many of us dont tend to do this. I used to give certain names for the group which shared my belief initially but now i dont rely on specifics anymore. Hence i sometimes call myself one who accepts Quran Alone, Quran only, GOD Aloner, etc. No grouping just pointing out the views i have to other people and hs is how i beleive it should be and GW whilst thoroughly applying the scientific method we would continue to reach more and more consensus on ever forthcoming issues. GOD Bless!
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Among traditionalists
- Do you see any difference in mentioning of 'five pillars of Islam' ?
- Do you see any difference in number of timings of prayers ?
- Do you see any difference in number of Rukka of any prayer ?
- Do you see any difference in number of Sajood of any Rukka
- Do you see any difference in what to recite in the prayer ?
- Do you see any difference in adopting the direction during prayer ?
A consensus of ignorance, created by men, implemented by sheep.
Who wouldn't conceed to your consensus when the punishment for dissent is death.
Have you ever though how empty your rituals are
Your 5 prayer don't put food in starving's stomach even once.
And you rukka and sajood provides no love or support to the orphans.
Your millions at Hajj don't save women from socities that treat them worse than animals.
Point your face towards kabba, and turn your backs on women forced into prostitution and children into slavery.Rejoice in your consensus, which elects corrupt leaders and politicans, who feed the rich and screw the poor,
that allowed a foreign army to march half way across the world and silence a million voices.Keep your face sternly towards kabba, don't ever turn around see reality.
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?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
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And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
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And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
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And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!
PEACE
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A consensus of ignorance, created by men, implemented by sheep.
Who wouldn't conceed to your consensus when the punishment for dissent is death.
Have you ever though how empty your rituals are
Your 5 prayer don't put food in starving's stomach even once.
And you rukka and sajood provides no love or support to the orphans.
Your millions at Hajj don't save women from socities that treat them worse than animals.
Point your face towards kabba, and turn your backs on women forced into prostitution and children into slavery.Rejoice in your consensus, which elects corrupt leaders and politicans, who feed the rich and screw the poor,
that allowed a foreign army to march half way across the world and silence a million voices.Keep your face sternly towards kabba, don't ever turn around see reality.
bravo bravo
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A consensus of ignorance, created by men, implemented by sheep.
Who wouldn't conceed to your consensus when the punishment for dissent is death.
Have you ever though how empty your rituals are
Your 5 prayer don't put food in starving's stomach even once.
And you rukka and sajood provides no love or support to the orphans.
Your millions at Hajj don't save women from socities that treat them worse than animals.
Point your face towards kabba, and turn your backs on women forced into prostitution and children into slavery.Rejoice in your consensus, which elects corrupt leaders and politicans, who feed the rich and screw the poor,
that allowed a foreign army to march half way across the world and silence a million voices.Keep your face sternly towards kabba, don't ever turn around see reality.
Sorry to say- just loved the way it's put.
God Bless All.
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A consensus of ignorance, created by men, implemented by sheep.
Your 5 prayer don't put food in starving's stomach even once.
And you rukka and sajood provides no love or support to the orphans.
Your millions at Hajj don't save women from socities that treat them worse than animals.
Point your face towards kabba, and turn your backs on women forced into prostitution and children into slavery.Rejoice in your consensus, which elects corrupt leaders and politicans, who feed the rich and screw the poor,
that allowed a foreign army to march half way across the world and silence a million voices.Keep your face sternly towards kabba, don't ever turn around see reality.
Here is the GREAT question Nerspi that truly puzzles me. Those who accuse others of not following the quran alone and having "consensus of ignorance" are normally the most divided. Those who say submitters have no foundation while they read the same book are the most divided. That is what really confuses me.
Why is it that those you argument against salat, against hajj, against zakat from it traditional understanding are the most divided. why is that? why if they follow on book, that claims to be easy and for the sincere, yet they cant EVEN agree on simply things like what salat is, what hajj is, what zakat is and how to implement these things? why is that?
How come those who claim and accuse other of not following "only" the koran are the most divided. They accuse others of not possessing that knowledge of the Koran and have consensus on ignorance, yet they are MORE divided than any other "sect" AMONG THEMSSLEVES?!? To me that is the true division. FIVE YEARS ago there was a debate on what salat is was and should be within that group. NOW five years later, no one have any solid proof to convince anyone within the group. And it seem to me every year they become more divided on the issues. Yet you criticizes others for unity and consensus. Yet you accuse others of having "consensus of ignorance" while they are "divided with ignorance."
It blows my minds how the accusers accues others of ignorance yet rejoice in there over their division, no consensus, ad ignorance on issues. Who is truly the ignorant one?
salat rukku and sajood may not full my stomach, but it helps me remember GOD (2014).
Hajj may not be about woman oppression and animal mistreatment, but is benefits the soul(2197).
Facing the kabba may not make me face prostitution and child slavery, but it unifies the submitters (2150).According to the Koran, these things have value and a specific purpose. DONT try in a sad attempt to make it look like the purpose of these things goes against important issue like women oppression, orphans, slavery, war etc. Its an insult to intelligence and basic common sense.
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Here is the GREAT question Nerspi that truly puzzles me. Those who accuse others of not following the quran alone and having "consensus of ignorance" are normally the most divided. Those who say submitters have no foundation while they read the same book are the most divided. That is what really confuses me.
Why is it that those you argument against salat, against hajj, against zakat from it traditional understanding are the most divided. why is that? why if they follow on book, that claims to be easy and for the sincere, yet they cant EVEN agree on simply things like what salat is, what hajj is, what zakat is and how to implement these things? why is that?
How come those who claim and accuse other of not following "only" the koran are the most divided. They accuse others of not possessing that knowledge of the Koran and have consensus on ignorance, yet they are MORE divided than any other "sect" AMONG THEMSSLEVES?!? To me that is the true division. FIVE YEARS ago there was a debate on what salat is was and should be within that group. NOW five years later, no one have any solid proof to convince anyone within the group. And it seem to me every year they become more divided on the issues. Yet you criticizes others for unity and consensus. Yet you accuse others of having "consensus of ignorance" while they are "divided with ignorance."
It blows my minds how the accusers accues others of ignorance yet rejoice in there over their division, no consensus, ad ignorance on issues. Who is truly the ignorant one?
salat rukku and sajood may not full my stomach, but it helps me remember GOD (2014).
Hajj may not be about woman oppression and animal mistreatment, but is benefits the soul(2197).
Facing the kabba may not make me face prostitution and child slavery, but it unifies the submitters (2150).According to the Koran, these things have value and a specific purpose. DONT try in a sad attempt to make it look like the purpose of these things goes against important issue like women oppression, orphans, slavery, war etc. Its an insult to intelligence and basic common sense.
Different salaat ways does not mean division. Real divisions is when each believes the other ways to pray is not valid and not accepted. Real division means I am right and you are wrong. I am a Muslim and you are not. There is different ways we give charity and we do zikr. It does not mean there is division.
Yes some here attack Sunnis and insult their ways. But not all. Sunnis problem is they think they have all the answers straight from the prophet. But I still believe the people here are far more tolerant and accepting of pluralism than any community of Sunnis. 5 years ago there might have been extremism but I think many here have now accepted that there is many ways to God and there is a wisdom in the Koran for leaving room for different interpretation.