Muslim women are permitted to sing in public according to the Qur'an
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{Refer 1732}
A "distance" needs to be covered before actually performing Zina. And hope this distance/road/path is not to be measured in miles or kilometers but means certain things done that facilitates/propmts that thing.
{Refer 651}
How would it be interpreted {without stretching}? -
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{Refer 1732}A "distance" needs to be covered before actually performing Zina. And hope this distance/road/path is not to be measured in miles or kilometers but means certain things done that facilitates/propmts that thing.
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{Refer 651}
How would it be interpreted {without stretching}?Thank you for the 17.32. However I have looked at 6.51 and may be you have quoted the numbers wrong because it has nothing to do with what you quote.
To 17.32, to how would I interpret it? It comes after an aya where it talks about something that should be avoided and is followed by another which does the same, so we it is abundandtly clear that we should avoid getting nearer zina.
May be it can be made more complicated, though don't see why or how, but my understanding in hearing or reading this injunction is quite clear dont't take any of the steps toward zina. Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be tempted to go that way. Don't play with the idea. Dont' invite, don't entice, don't seduce, don't insinuate, don't be equivocal, don't kid yourself that you are just playing and let the ending open as if you didn't have anything to do with it. Don't start what you are not going to en or what you at any rate should not end. And the aya gives a brief explanation of why.
I will take the second aya you mention and I trust, of course, your quote, although I would have liked better to see it in context to get the best of it.
This other aya it is not speaking about zina but fauahisha, which is a wider meaning and comprises other hateful and criminal actions. Again, as far as i get it, it means do not put yourself in a situation in which you can be enticed, or cheated or tempted to do what you know you shouldn't do. Don't stick around with robbers, for instance, with brothel goers, junkies, etc. etc. Do not even entertain the idea. And of course do not isnuate or incite o thersto such a thing.
That is my understanding.
Now coming back to the theme of the thread, the fact is that I can't see the relationship between these ayas you mention and women singing. It is preposterous that a singer, for instance, Monserrat Caballe or Maria Callas should be responsible for the weirdness any male may have been stuffing into his mind for God knows how long. Only a hoplessly twisted, vicious mind can come up with such a thing. But then no woman will be ever able to be up to the mark with that kind of distorted personality, nor should attempt it. Personal morals are personal responsibility. Women are not responsible for the lack of morals in any man, nor men are responsible for the lack of morals of any woman. Nor anybody should make anybody else a victim and curtail his or her rights so that he or she can abdicate of his or her own duties to him or herself and the Creator. Each person imagination and delusions are his or her respnsibility. If he or she has to sacrifice and tyranise others for his or her moral "perfection", then there is not much of that moral to guard, and the best favour for him or her is to make him or her responsible of his or her own acts without indulging petty tyranies and childish traitsfor spurious reasons.
Going back to 17.32, there is no comparison between this and what you say about the hidden zeenat. Zina is clearly forbidden and punished, and we are told not to get nearer it. On the other hand it is not said anywhere that singing in whatever circumstance is forbidden nor there is any punishment for it. The equivalent of what you say is that there should be an aya which said "do not get nearer singing (by women if you are a man) and that simultaneously there was in the Quran a clear and explicit prohibition of singing (by women) and a penalty attached to it.
Now let us concede that there was something wrong with men hearing women sing. Then, the prohibition should be on men to listen, not on women to sing. But the fact that is taken the other way around goes to show that we are not talking about women's or men's rights, but about how to curtail women's rights. Why can a woman not enjoy on TV womens sports just because some men do not aprove of women sporting in front of men. Men should take care not watch if they think that they are not supposed to, and not that since they can't, nobody can or do because everything airtime, home, tv, waves, radiation, sun, moon, beaches, everything seems to be men's unshared property. I don't know if many men realise how hostile, how arrogant, how spoiledbrattish, how disdainful for their fellow human beings that is and how barren.
Why not start keeping themselves from what they shouldn't do instead of preventing women from doing anything on the excuse that, who knows, they might miraculously be tempted? How can people be protected from being tempted to be hopelessly spoilt, hopelessly irresponsible should be the question. And I mean it really. Here we are, with a religion that is the geatest Mercy, the love of God breathed into our existence, into our own intimacy, a sublime blessing for our hearts and souls, a Book of wisdom and knowledge beyond imagination and wild wishes, and what do we get out of it? Does the ocean hold enough tears to cry for that waste? Probably yes. It does. Finally we are here for only an eyeclick and we will be comforted by the Only One who cares.
I won't get into the batin and thahir of the second aleya Mazhar quoted because I think by now it is obvious, and being sincere and having outbursts in fact is very hard work and for everybody's sake and mine I should take a little rest.
Salaam, no ill feelings for anybody, just heartache.
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Peace,
Maybe men shouldn't be going to such places?
Men should lower their gaze (2430). It shows equal responsibility. Why should women be held responsible for the men with evil in their hearts? Aren't we all held accountable for our own doings?
How do you live like the prophets? Which prophet(s)? And Why?
I agree. The point that I am trying to make IS equal responsibility. I think that women should do their best and men do their best. Its like how women shouldnt wear provocative clothes. Same with the singing IF it causes the disease in the hearts of men. Now Im not saying that they should or shouldnt sing, Im just speaking for equal responsibility. I listen to women sing myself.
All the prophets. Are they not one of the best examples of Muslims?
Let's go the full way and write our books like the Quran, because even though that states we shall never be like the prophets, or the wives of the prophets, and we shall never be able to produce a book like it, we should still try...
Thats not the point that I was trying to make. Im speaking in regards to following God the best we can. Of course we cant be completely like a prophet, since they are chosen by God.
I dont agree with your understanding. We follow the God-consciousness of the Prophet's and all righteous people mentioned in the Qur'an. However we DON'T follow specific commandments for who they were ie. Prophets or wives of the Prophet.
Emulating specific commandments to the wives of the Prophet's therefore mean nothing. If you mean their God-consciousness, then yes. But specific criterias explicitly stated to be only for them are only for them.
I will elaborate on some points I made earlier
....I agree with what you state there, for specific commandments towards them. I have this question though. Had it said something to the wives of the prophet in the lines of, "If you are righteous, you will follow monotheism", would that then mean that women in general dont need to follow monotheism since it was directed towards the wives in that specific verse?
I can see the other things that you pointed out, such as the punishment for the wives is double, but Im not quite sure about this verse in particular. The way I interpret it is that it is towards those women, but that doesn't necessarily that other women cant follow it.
Again Im not saying that women CANT sing, but mutual responsibility again. Like I mentioned, I personally listen to women sing. I also think, depending on the material, that it can be quite beautiful. Regarding the beautiful part though, then we would go to what Tanveer was saying.
Peace
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Peace all,
Brother Mazhar raises a very logical point
Normal/regular voice of a man/woman used in day to day conversation is different from the voice used by the same man/woman while singing. This "singing" voice is thus not readily apparent. Also, it is a known fact that the "normal" voice is not sexually provocative as opposed to the sensual voice that the same man/woman can emit. This "sensual" voice is not readily apparent.
Could it be that this "sensual" or "singing" voice is part of a woman's "zeenat"/beauty/adornment ? If that is so, then per 2431, women are not allowed to reveal their "zeenat" except what is apparent. Hence they will be allowed to reveal their "normal/regular" voice for ordinary conversation purposes, but not allowed to reveal their "sensual" or "singing" voice as it is not apparent. Likewise, lowering the gaze would also include not continuing to listen to "sensual" or "singing" voices.
Just throwing this out to see what others think about this. It just came to mind and I have not yet formed any solid stance about this.
I do not find a the voice of a singing woman so sexy. It's calming or soft, but not sexually attractive or provocative. But if the woman intentionally uses moaning and stuff it could be different.
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Again this reflects a very personal point of view and not a general perception or indication that the Quran in fact "means" that, which again would be an interpretation and a lot of stretching. But, if that were the case, I take it that singing male voices do also excite. Cannot see how they are less exciting than women voices. In fact looking at the tremendous inroads that male homosexuality is making nowadays I am sure that forbidding male public singing would be more pressing than any other musical curtailing. And according to the reasons that you give to stretch meanings, also grounded in the Quran. Modesty in men is not a choice but a command.
I agree with this. Think about boy bands for a second. Sure, mostly they are young good looking guys anyway, but also they have voices that women (and gay men) swoon over. So if voices and singing were the problem, I'm sure there'd be an equal command for men and women to not speak softly, etc. At the end of the day, those who are inclined to will take anything innocent and turn it into something perverse, while blaming their lack of control on others.
Peace.
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Thats not the point that I was trying to make. Im speaking in regards to following God the best we can. Of course we cant be completely like a prophet, since they are chosen by God.
Sorry, I believe I missed your point entirely. Yes, the messengers are good examples. Has this been said for the prophet's wives?
Brother OPF,
If this is the logic then tomorrow someone could say there is no proibition in performing Zina since Quran has said do not go near Zina. The word "perform Zina" has not been used. When people are advised to lessen their gaze, i.e. avoid focussing the vision the cause is apparent and well understood because visual signal is known as the strogest signal that exictes certain cells of the body even there not being a will/deliberate desire {except those who are gone very cool}. Then women are advised to take care while walking so that their bosoms do not become reflective since it may exicte the cells of onlookers without their own desire/deliberate will. Satan was permitted to thrill people with voice; singing voice excites the cells to make them dance.
If there is no prohibition, then don't make a prohibition out of it. The Quran should not be cloudy on subjects. In this case, can it be said something with a prescribed punishment is prohibited? Or is it being punished for the fun of it? There are definitely hidden/subliminal communications going on in the cases you mentioned, but let's stick to quranic decree. If it says it is prohibited, it is, otherwise, who are we to ban something even God allows? Isn't that a form of shirk in itself, assuming you have higher knowledge/foresight than the God?
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Peace,
The point that I am trying to make IS equal responsibility. I think that women should do their best and men do their best.
Understood. peace
Its like how women shouldnt wear provocative clothes. Same with the singing IF it causes the disease in the hearts of men.
They shouldn't yeah, but that's why we're told to lower our gaze, because no matter what there will be women who dress what is deemed inappropriate. In that verse, immediately we're told to cover our private parts. This means A) Avoid the objects of lust B) Not only avoid lust, but don't commit adultery! Because one can avoid lust and still commit that act.
All the prophets. Are they not one of the best examples of Muslims?
Absolutely. My point with that question was
We aren't told to dress like them. We are told to follow the best of their examples, because even they made mistakes. And that one can dress modestly, but it means nothing if the person is also not modest 'inside'.
Let's also remember when trying to prohibit something the God didn't
A) The best dress is the garment of righteousness (726)
B) Remember what the jews did (326, 4160 )
C) What God reminds us in 587
D) The mistake the prophet committed (661)
BTW, 661 debunks the theory that the prophet was allowed to prohibit anything.
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Peace,
I do really agree with Tarikh, today it's not only the voice but so much more to succede as a singer.
Maria
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Dear brothers and sisters,
Really to go into any aya of the Quran is a treasure trove. As to 33.32, thanks for bringing it up. Reading it carefully, I don't see that even the mothers of the believers were forbidden to sing in public, but I will leave that aside.
Peace be to you brother,
I have been thinking along those lines too. However it was beyond the scope of my article as it would lead to a much deeper and longer discussion. My priority in the article therefore revolved around first proving that ordinary Muslim women CAN sing in public and those Verses do nothing to prohibit them. Primarily, the audience I was targetting was Sunni and Shia Muslims, and I posted it up on many such forums.
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Peace
Peace,
Understood. peace
They shouldn't yeah, but that's why we're told to lower our gaze, because no matter what there will be women who dress what is deemed inappropriate. In that verse, immediately we're told to cover our private parts. This means A) Avoid the objects of lust B) Not only avoid lust, but don't commit adultery! Because one can avoid lust and still commit that act.
Absolutely. My point with that question was
We aren't told to dress like them. We are told to follow the best of their examples, because even they made mistakes. And that one can dress modestly, but it means nothing if the person is also not modest 'inside'.
Let's also remember when trying to prohibit something the God didn't
A) The best dress is the garment of righteousness (726)
B) Remember what the jews did (326, 4160 )
C) What God reminds us in 587
D) The mistake the prophet committed (661)
BTW, 661 debunks the theory that the prophet was allowed to prohibit anything.
I totally agree with what you have said. What I stated was merely a conversation piece presenting a point of view that could be interpreted as such. Like I mentioned, I personally listen to women sing. I also like the nasheed that someone posted of Mys Shlsh.
I also didnt mean to prohibit women from singing, just choosing the avenue is all. Im well aware of 661. It all ties back to the individual responsibility which I was trying to get at. Also what Tanveer mentioned about whether it being Zeenat or not and to whether it should be awrah for mahram.
Rashad Translation
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.Peace
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Peace DArgento,
Peace Amuslim,
Understood peace
The 'list' wasn't directed at you, but just a general reminder...to myself even.
Yes, I know...that was more directed at bro Mazhar (see bottom of page 1)
I agree with the reminder, and I thank you for listing them specifically. I need to do that more often God Willing.
Regarding what Mazhar said, I personally would like to know where some of the Muslim countries get the idea of segregating the genders. Such as how women on one side of the restaurant and men on the other. Same with walking with non-mahram/unmarriageable kin. I can understand their views of how its better for the ummah, but is it particularly in the Quran?
Peace
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Peace Amuslim,
Very good question you raised. I have also wondering such if really Quran says that the opposite gender shall keep apart from eachother?
My personal thought though is that it increase the curiosity about the opposite gender and it can lead to more breaking the moral laws.
Maria
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I also didnt mean to prohibit women from singing,
Yes, I know...that was more directed at bro Mazhar (see bottom of page 1)
I did not say that "singing" is haram. Some also show reservation about venue of singing. After all what is the point and necessity that a lady should sing in the public except amusing/fascinating people?
6601 is with relation to the thing that has been declared and made known as "Hilal". Where singing has been declared as allowed/hilal? -
I did not say that "singing" is haram. Some also show reservation about venue of singing. After all what is the point and necessity that a lady should sing in the public except amusing/fascinating people?
6601 is with relation to the thing that has been declared and made known as "Hilal". Where singing has been declared as allowed/hilal?Where has it been forbidden?
After all what is the point and necessity that a GENTLEMAN should sing in the public except amusing/fascinating people?
Concerning modern mass singers, like madonna and so on, I would say that those more than singers are mass media multimillion making operations.
There are however singers, not millionaires, who sing, really sing, and don't dress with rags or are any bit indecent. They do a proper job and earn their emoluments professionally. Why suddenly singing should be restricted to money making operations? And for that matter it would not be restricted to singing. We know that sex is poured into everything today in order to make us buy, make us not to think etc. Attacking honest musicians does nothing to avoid de dirty exploitation of sex.
About venues, really, if a woman singer is announced, every man is free to attend or not, or if we are in a "sharia" country they can be forbidden the entrance as far as I am concerned if that is the wish of men in general and of the women singers. But why put a burden on women to perform and enjoy performances or restrict its venues? And again if we go into that, are women to be excluded from singing on TV? This is inadmissible. Men are not chained up to the TV in their homes. So they really are not forced to watch them. If they can't help that, then they can't help making passes to their mahram women either. Why could they? And I say it because I KNOW conclusively that men are not stopped from trying to seduce their women mahrams. So much for the comfort of sex separation. And even more bearing in mind that if you do not deal with muslims women who are not mahrams you still have the whole world and the whole world tvs full of women who are non muslim and non mahram. The whole concept is sick, twisted and contrived, COMPLETELY CONTRIVED and generates men that are duty bound to be obssessed. That is, they are not naturally obssessed, but feel obliged to behave as if they really were, and of course some of them end up loving the upper hand that gives them with women, that is they gratuitously get morally corrupted. I do not believe there is an ounce of sincerity in it. And I don't mean that there are no sincere men that simply believe it all and even argue it because they humbly and sincerely think that is what they should believe and defend. But to get there, to that state of things, there has to be contrivance. Also I am not attacking anybody or any people. I sincerley love -and defend- many things in countries which are traditionally Muslim and I know that there are many exemplary men -and women, respected and loved women- among them, but the concept of sex separation and obsession with lust and temptation is sick and contrived and is harming us all very much.
Salaam
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Peace, women singing in public is never prohibited. What i meant in my last post, was that most female singers, not all, use sex to promote their voice. Even male singers use sexy women in their clips/scene. We can witness that specially in the rap(e)/women degrading culture. As for less popular female singers who sing, without using sex, it's too bad that the music industry doesnt give them exposure and honestly there aren't many people who value them either. The masses have been duped into believing that ranting as rappers do equals singing. A musician cannot survive withous audience and if the audience prefers snoop dog to tracy chapman, then there is a big problem with the audience. I believe that the whole concept of live venues is wrong. Of what use are concerts where so much electricity is poured into delivering loud volumes, not to mention the noise pollution this causes at night? Let's be realist, many things happened at pop concerts, we all know that people get drunk there, we all know what the word 'party' means in Europe/USA. The whole concept of partying at night is contrary to quran. What has all this got to do with meditating at night?