Do women have equal rights?
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I think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men have the upper hand, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do that, which is the case with many of the Quran ayas. If on the other hand you do not go from that point point of reference, what the Quran says in those ayas is quite plain and it doesn't support unequality, but uncompromising balance and as much room as possible for each person, man or woman, to find the arrangement that best suits her.
You should read the thread in the forum "The Quran does not advise husbands to beat their wives" and contribute to it if you care.
As to the question on inheritance, it is not in every case double for the male, but depends on who are left as successors, and on the other hand there is the injunction that men should give a dowry to the bride when they marry, so in this case you have an inequality in favour of woman. The question is not that the Qur'an enjoins unfairness but that people will use every ruse to be unfair when that suits them and do not care about uprightness. You know that phrase attributed to Richelieu give me a four lines written by the most innocent man on earth and I will find enough grounds to hang him. When "muslims" take every care to apply against women what can be applied against them and and in favour of men and wholly forget what can be applied in favour of women and against men, whereas the Qur'an is always uncompromisingly balanced, it isn't the Qur'an's fault, but their own determination to tread on women and to abuse whatever they have at hand to do so. It is obvious from the whole that inheritance, apart from legacies, are distributed according to the charges that usually each family member would have to assume. In a society where those charges are not assumed, either their assumption is enforced or those who do not assume them should not get their shares on that ground, and in fact in a society where women many time assume far more charges than men, they should get shares accordingly. As it happens, some things are enforced in so called muslim states and others are not. That is WRONG, but it is not the fault of the Qur'an. And without Qur'an, injustice is also rampant. In civilised, rich Europe, women with children are at a very great disadvantage, they are the poorest segment, and instead of getting their rights what you get is sociological studies where thesefamilies are "blamed" for drugaddiction, marginality, among youngsters etc. etc. So it is always the weakest link in the chain that breaks. And won't go into prostitution, but I am afraid, that that is something that is mostly inflicted on women, also in civilised Europe, and that is not in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an talks exactly the same of women and men, it doesn't go into feminine mystic nor cheap babble about about the purity of women and all that, but the card castle about the "special" role of women and the wonders of the veil and all that is wholy extra quranic and without any base on it. The Qur'an unrelentingly speaks of fairness and worthwhile actions and doesn't set an ideal woman or man, except thorugh good actions both, actions which are not characterised as women's or men's and every right is offset by a corresponding duty and every duty by a corresponding right, and within fairness lets every person, man and woman, come to the kind of arrangement that best suit them. Read for instance 2.233, but there are many like that. In fact the room that the Qur'an leaves people to find their own arrangements is enormous and only limits are set, so that it is not abused against the defenceless.
Thanks for bringing this up. Let us debate, and please, look carefully into the Qur'an, bear in mind that translations are really prejudiced, sometimes grossly, some times inadvertently. Hopefully we may contribute to making the Qur'an clear and manifest beyond all the impurities under which so much ot it is hidden.
Salaam
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NO! it does not.
I think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men have the upper hand, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do that
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The Quran enjoins equity all over the place, but where it says in one aya on marriage questions mithluma 3alaiha, it is the same rights as those over her. So, yes, equal rights, not equitable rights, there is no missing the point or circumventing it. Of course, equal rights should be equitable.
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Samia
Quote from huruf on November 02, 2007, 041143 AM
I think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men have the upper hand, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do thatI will slightly like to change the above statement
I think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men and women should have equal rights impressed by European understanding, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do that.
But the reality is Quran doesnot talk about equal rights for Man and Woman, Quran doesnot say any thing which is unnatural.
Iron Sky has just explained it quite good.
Thanks.
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Samia
I will slightly like to change the above statementI think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men and women should have equal rights impressed by European understanding, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do that.
Iron Sky has just explained it quite good.
Thanks.
Salaam Raj-ah
What's wrong with taking or adopting anything European/Western if it is good? Do we just realize "the evil" West when it comes to women's rights, but all we eat, drink, wear, commute and communicate with, read, watch, ruled by ...is European? Do we have to start from the invention of the wheel, and from where we stopped 14 centuries ago and start opposing women's sale in the slave market!!!
To you and to Kurt, please give me examples of RIGHTS exclusively for men that a woman is deprived of as a human, and how the Europeans gave her these rights, and the quraan has not explicitly prohibited, in a way that seeking them is a clear breach of our following the command of God.
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Peace to all,
Sorry sister Samia if I offended you, I wasnt trying to say woman arent equal to men, and I dont believe we have rights that woman shouldnt also have, I was trying to explain how we may have different duties, skills, or capacities. There are verses in the Quran that say woman and men are equal, so that is also my position, I think I just explained myself to poorly. Maybe this article will help explain what I meant.
http//www.submission.org/islam/faq7.htmlKurt
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I will slightly like to change the above statement
I think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men and women should have equal rights impressed by European understanding, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do that.
So, yes, let us improve the above statement a little more, so it would read
I think it is a matter of outlook and reference point. If you start from the unquestionned conviction that men and women should have very different rights impressed by the hinduist, pagan, jewish and christian understanding, anything you read will be interpreted from that point of view and will suport it, even if you have to come with utter nonsense to do that.
Now let us not play silly games
European did not invent rights, nor equality, in fact they have had unconceivably cruel and unfair laws against women, so if a European or any other person comes up with equality, it is not because they are Europeans or from Antartida, but because they have had the moral character to do so, the same as there are non Europeans, even Arabs, Pakistanis and Indians who also have had the character to do so, and questioning and reflecting and studying have come to realise that God, in the Qur'an, also says so. Because that is the way God has created us.
Now in aya 2.228 when it says
wa lihunna mithlu allathy 3alaihinna bilma3aruf, how can you make it to say anything but that they have the same rights over men as those that men have over them.Now, may be you think that since they have different preproductive burdens, that should result in different rights. Well no. Of course, women have the right to be maintained on account of their reproductive burden, but that is not an axclusive right. Anybody who takes on a disproportionate burden of something in society should have appropriate acknowledgement and compensation. In the case of reproduction almost always the burden is born by women, but it is in turn a particular case of the more general one that to every female and to every male what they have earned.
Like Samia, I ask you to, please, explain rights that are different, according to you, for men and women as stated in the truthful Qur'an.
Thanks Iron Sky for explanation
Salaam
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Salaam Raj-ah
What's wrong with taking or adopting anything European/Western if it is good? Do we just realize "the evil" West when it comes to women's rights, but all we eat, drink, wear, commute and communicate with, read, watch, ruled by ...is European? Do we have to start from the invention of the wheel, and from where we stopped 14 centuries ago and start opposing women's sale in the slave market!!!
To you and to Kurt, please give me examples of RIGHTS exclusively for men that a woman is deprived of as a human, and how the Europeans gave her these rights, and the quraan has not explicitly prohibited, in a way that seeking them is a clear breach of our following the command of God.
If we talk about a Sunni POV, then the right to multiple sexual partners
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huruf
Now let us not play silly games
European did not invent rights, nor equality, in fact they have had unconceivably cruel and unfair laws against women, so if a European or any other person comes up with equality, it is not because they are Europeans or from Antartida, but because they have had the moral character to do so, the same as there are non Europeans, even Arabs, Pakistanis and Indians who also have had the character to do so, and questioning and reflecting and studying have come to realise that God, in the Qur'an, also says so. Because that is the way God has created us.
First of all I would like to point out that you are not good at History.
Secondly read 434 just to have a change of taste.This is very interesting topic but be rest assure Allah does not says MEn and Women have Equal rights.
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Dear borther Rajah, come down a little,
Those recommendations are out of place. You don't know what I have read and what I haven't, what I have learnt and what I haven't. YOU should read, that aya, the whole of it, the ones before, and the ones after. And you should learn history. I don't accept that anybody talks to me as if he were on conquered territory.
As a general remark I must say that insistence by men on better unequal rights (euphemism for beter rights for men) usually goes together with a lack of self-assurance, because may be without those rights they fear that they are nothing? That is a pity. May be we are completely wrong when we try to promote women on the ground that something should be done about them, whereas what should be done is give men a lot of self assurance and get into their psyche that even if they don't rule they are still persons and lovable and that to be loved for what one is is better than being a needy imposer.
Salaam