Are we right or are you?
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Just what will believing into hadeeth do to you? if a hadeeth is according to Quran and Islam then believe in it, if it doesnt then reject it, rejecting it all because of some fabricated ones is same as rejecting all Islamic laws because we cant understand some of them..
Bro,
Some of us are doing just that, and I guess the end reason would be pretty similar to just following the Qur'an.
Most traditionalists do that, by the way. They just differ in the amount of effort done to 'defend' hadith which seem to contradict the qur'an by trying to make it somehow fit or at least does not contradict.
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Maybe you are BUT even then there are differences between what you THINK and what we think the obvious being praying.. you somehoe believe that there are 2 (i think) prayers when we think (& know because of hadeeths if not the Quran) that there are 5. then there is fasting the article seemed to have stated that we should fast in the hottest month so i ask eveyrone here did you fast in the hottest month or in ramadan?
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Salaam shez
someone compared us (sunnis i think) to christians because jesus is son of God (or so christians think) and we believe Prophet Muhammed is messenger of God (weird logic but there you go) but i ask YOU are you not the same as christians? they have so many sects now and we are just going down the same road as them? so who is following WHO?
Who is "us" and who is "you"? And who are the "sunnis"?
rejecting it all because of some fabricated ones is same as rejecting all Islamic laws because we cant understand some of them..
That's exctly the main point! That's how I, at least, came to reject hadith, because it is in plian ontradiction to these laws as stated in the qur'aan. I bet you have never read through a book of Islamic Fiqh and compared its "islamic" laws with what is stated in the qur'aan.
Before "advising" us to read books "to understand quraan" (orry to bring it here. I read this in one of our posts), why don't you read through this forum and you will find many posts and articles discussing ALL your arguments?. If your mission is to "bring us back to hadith", I am afraid you are wasting your time and ours. We have already been there and left with conviction. We are hear to study the quraan and learn. No time for hearsay, sorry.
YOU say that hadeeths are fabricated because they were written so long after Prophet's death, then QUran can too be considered incorrect because maybe if it was compiled in Prophet's time, He would have added additional material (with Allah's command) or ammedned some verses because maybe people heard them wrong or maybe rejected some verses as they were not quranic verses but hadeeths or just something Gabriel told Prophet and people thought it was part of Quran?
Quran wasnt send down on us? it was send down to Prophet Muhammed and you can trust Him with Quran but you blatantly disregard hadeeths because some may have been fabricated? this is a great logic kind of strike me as westernised (does this make you happy? read on) way of thinking? after all isnt it the westerns who label EVERY muslims a terrorist because of the wrongness of the few?See above
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peace
YOU say that hadeeths are fabricated because they were written so long after Prophet's death, then QUran can too be considered incorrect because maybe if it was compiled in Prophet's time, He would have added additional material (with Allah's command) or ammedned some verses because maybe people heard them wrong or maybe rejected some verses as they were not quranic verses but hadeeths or just something Gabriel told Prophet and people thought it was part of Quran?
really? now how would that go? God reveals the book, a human adds things, God doesn't do anything about it and lets people follow the corrupted book forever... hmm, what would be the point of that? what would be the point of revealing the book in the first place since He knows the future and what's gonna happen to it????
with Allah's command you say? really? ok, lets see how that would go God who is the all powerful creator, there is no one like Him, no one equal to Him, no one knowledgable as He is and He would let a human being write things on his own and allow that human to put his words along side of God's words as if the human could know as well as God????
oh p-lease
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peace
really? now how would that go? God reveals the book, a human adds things, God doesn't do anything about it and lets people follow the corrupted book forever... hmm, what would be the point of that? what would be the point of revealing the book in the first place since He knows the future and what's gonna happen to it????
with Allah's command you say? really? ok, lets see how that would go God who is the all powerful creator, there is no one like Him, no one equal to Him, no one knowledgable as He is and He would let a human being write things on his own and allow that human to put his words along side of God's words as if the human could know as well as God????
oh p-lease
wait are you forgetting BIBLE AND TORAH? arent they corrupted and GOD DIDNT DO ANYTHING about it.. oh wait but i guess you have selective memory..
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Omigosh, shez!
Aren't you reading the posts people are writing to you??
Does creating new sect make people happy? Does it unite muslims or divide them? Doesnt it say in the quran to be united? Then how does creating new sect uniting muslims?
Who in the world created a new sect here?? Did we call ourselves a sect, or are you calling us one?? ...I'm certainly not part of any sect. Speak for yourself!
You think you are right, shias believe they are, ahmedis believe they are so on and so on? and we all know only ONE of them is the right one! So what is the point of making these new sects? WHY dont we learn?
Only ONE of the sects is the right one?? Spare me!
someone compared us (sunnis i think) to christians because jesus is son of God (or so christians think) and we believe Prophet Muhammed is messenger of God (weird logic but there you go)
'Twas I, but I didn't say the reason was because Jesus is the son of God. and you believe that Muhammad is the messenger of God. You've missed the point (again). I suggest you go back to the relevant thread and re-read what I wrote.
Just what will believing into hadeeth do to you?
'believing in hadeeth'? Kind of like believing in Santa Claus - it will lead me down a path of that certain delusion and wrong actions.
westernised (does this make you happy? read on) way of thinking? after all isnt it the westerns who label EVERY muslims a terrorist because of the wrongness of the few?
Aw, gee! What have 'westerners' and 'terrorists' got to do with this discussion? confused
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Salaam Aleikum,
Dear Shez,
While I agree with you that creating a NEW sect doesn't help our situation as muslims, I must say that it also doesn't help that you are asking people to abandon any given sect in order to join your way of thinking/understanding and the sect you subscribe to...
Are WE right or are YOU?
YOU think you are right, shias believe they are, ahmedis believe they are so on and so on? and WE all know only ONE of them is the right one!
someone compared US (SUNNIS i think) to christians because jesus is son of God (or so christians think) and we believe Prophet Muhammed is messenger of God
YOU somehoe believe that there are 2 (i think) prayers when WE think (& know because of hadeeths if not the Quran) that there are 5.
Sectarianism is Shirk...PERIOD!! It is not right to ask people to abandon a way of thinking that you disagree with and ask them to conform to your way of thinking and still claim that you are fighting against sectarianism.
My message to ALL those who call themselves Muslims (Sunni, Shiah, Wahhabi/Salafi, Khawwarij, Ahle Quran, etc.)....
Look at the world today and notice all of the chaos, oppression, persecution, corruption and injustices that pervade the land, then thoroughly study Quran, 873 to see what WE ALL have been doing wrong.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Bro,
Some of us are doing just that, and I guess the end reason would be pretty similar to just following the Qur'an.
Most traditionalists do that, by the way. They just differ in the amount of effort done to 'defend' hadith which seem to contradict the qur'an by trying to make it somehow fit or at least does not contradict.
Peace
On the contrary, I believe these sorts of views are held by those who are in denial as to how much of their religion has been influenced by the 'hadith'.
Roshan
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Peace
I think you make many good points. If you search this site you will find the verses you are looking for in the Quran. Verses that say the Quran is complete, fully detailed with nothing left out of it ; the role of the messenger was to reveal the message ; the Quran was complied in the lifetime of Muhammad and was a scripture (i.e. written down); the Quran was the only revelation given to the messenger ; verses that forbid the following of 'hadith' besides the Quran as a source of law.
I would advise you to search for these verses and translate them for yourself.
Roshan
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Salaam Aleikum,
Dear Shez,
While I agree with you that creating a NEW sect doesn't help our situation as muslims, I must say that it also doesn't help that you are asking people to abandon any given sect in order to join your way of thinking/understanding and the sect you subscribe to...
Sectarianism is Shirk...PERIOD!! It is not right to ask people to abandon a way of thinking that you disagree with and ask them to conform to your way of thinking and still claim that you are fighting against sectarianism.
My message to ALL those who call themselves Muslims (Sunni, Shiah, Wahhabi/Salafi, Khawwarij, Ahle Quran, etc.)....
Look at the world today and notice all of the chaos, oppression, persecution, corruption and injustices that pervade the land, then thoroughly study Quran, 873 to see what WE ALL have been doing wrong.
Salaam,
Damon.But what is a sect? it is when the people deviate away from the majority.. for eg In prophet's time everyone was 100% muslim, no sect. He died then after there were two sects. shias and sunnis so muslims were divided 50% 50%. Then there were more sects and muslims divided even further and further.. and we are STILL creating sects and dividing muslims further.. Now surely one of these sect is the right one.. they cant ALL be right! because they all have some different rules that make they diverge from the main Islamic principles. and if we all had same rules/laws then we wouldnt have different sects in the first place.
It is not right for me to force you to change BUT giving information is what is everybody's job. If Prophet Muhammed didnt give us info we would still be living as hindus, or christians or whatever.. It is same as what you are doing on this site, ie giving sunnis, shias information about why they should abandon their beliefs.
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Roshan does it actually say that in the Quran, that it was compiled down in Prophet's time?
Sunnis and others do not follow hadeeth, we look at Quran first and if we cant find anything in it, we will look at hadeeth and then use our knowledge to issue fatwas.
And apparently there are loads of things that are not in Quran- i dont think it mentions traweeh prayer
- i dont think it solves today's questions that a muslim may have
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And apparently there are loads of things that are not in Quran
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i dont think it mentions traweeh prayer
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i dont think it solves today's questions that a muslim may have
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Ever thought that if it's not contained in the Qur'an, maybe Allah Himself does not think it's important?
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What questions? Pick some examples.
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Salaam Aleikum Shez,
But what is a sect? it is when the people deviate away from the majority..
Based on my understanding of the Quran, a sect Is Not when the people deviate from the majority. A sect is when the people divide themselves, period. Please refer to Quran 3103-105, 6159, 873, and 3031-32. Also, please carefully read the story of Moses, Aaron and Samiri in 2092-97.
In prophet's time everyone was 100% muslim, no sect.
Are you sure about that? Once again please read 6159.
Now surely one of these sect is the right one
Again, I remind you to read 3031-32 as thoroughly as you possibly can before making a claim such as this.
they cant ALL be right!
I agree with you...they cannot ALL BE RIGHT.
because they all have some different rules that make they diverge from the main Islamic principles.
And Where do we find these Main Islamic Principles?? What is the common denominator of all those who call themselves Muslims??
and if we all had same rules/laws then we wouldnt have different sects in the first place.
But we DO have rules and laws and yet we STILL have sects. What do you think accounts for that? It is NOT the lack of rules and laws that account for sectarianism. Study the Arabic Quran more carefully and you will discover EXACTLY what accounts for it.
It is not right for me to force you to change BUT giving information is what is everybody's job.
Agreed.
If Prophet Muhammed didnt give us info we would still be living as hindus, or christians or whatever
Allah has guaranteed that mankind will recieve the message one way or another.
It is same as what you are doing on this site, ie giving sunnis, shias information about why they should abandon their beliefs.
First of all, who is this You that you are talking about in the above quote?? Second of all, you are saying that others here are giving Sunnis and Shiahs information about why they should abandon their beliefs. Didn't you just say that giving information is everybody's job?
It is not right for me to force you to change BUT giving information is what is everybody's job.
Thirdly, what are YOU (Shez) doing yourself when you tell the people here that They Are Wrong and the Sunni Sect (which you seem to proudly represent) is the right way? Are you not giving the free-minders information about why they should abandon their beliefs?
The faithful are surely brothers; so restore friendship among your brothers, and fear God that you may be favoured.
(4910)Peace Be With You,
Damon. -
Roshan does it actually say that in the Quran, that it was compiled down in Prophet's time?
Sunnis and others do not follow hadeeth, we look at Quran first and if we cant find anything in it, we will look at hadeeth and then use our knowledge to issue fatwas.
And apparently there are loads of things that are not in Quran- i dont think it mentions traweeh prayer
Peace Shez,
Your above point is surely self contradictory? Anyway, below are the main points I feel those who follow the hadith need to understand about our beliefs
- What the Quran says about following hadith besides the Quran We all know that the Quran has many quotations that explicitly forbid this using the very arabic word itself hadith. (7186, 3923, 456, 7750)
2)What the Quran says about itself (that it is fully detailed as a source of religious law) 638, 12111, 6114, 18109, 3127
3)The Role of the Messenger Perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of Islam, the role of the messenger, with regards to the religion of Islam, was in delivering the message 599, 1340, 4248, 69 40-46. In other words the role of the messenger was to deliver the message. This message is the Quran. The Quran is complete, fully detailed and nothing else is to be followed as a source of religious law besides it. The only revelation, to be followed by mankind as a source of religious law, that Muhammad received was the Quran. 6940-46 clearly explains this.
4)Compilation of the Quran The Quran is referred to numerous times as a book (kitab) and the Quran details that under instruction from God Muhammad ordered the Quran. God states in the Quran that the Quran had been written down and ordered before the death of Muhammad. See 2 101,255, 16101
5)So where does the Quran tell us to do salat/zakat etc Simple. You either believe in the Quran or you do not. If you don't, then fair enough. However, if you do, you obviously need to believe in all of it. Parts of the Quran say it is complete. So if you find you cannot do the salat, then it should be admitted this is due to your own shortcomings, not God's. However, are you really asking how do you do salat, or are you asking how can one find the way of doing salat, as it is mentioned in the hadith, in the Quran?
N.B. Nowhere in the Quran does it ever to say to follow hadith besides the Quran, nowhere does it mention the 'sunnah of Muhammad'. The Quran is so simple in explaining what we are to follow.
Roshan
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so we have sects, and different religions, and different philisophies...
some say "only ONE of them can be right" ... others say "they can't all be right" . ..
so just how black and white is the situation? Can the values and opinions of a sect be clearly defined? Isn't there always a variation? Is there really an original model of each sect/religion? Is a sect separate from the people?
What if all of them CAN be right... in different ways!
Why must only ONE be right? Does that mean that 100% of one sect is right and the rest are 100% wrong? Isn't this thinking a bit too black and white?WHY must we determine who's right and who's wrong!? Will there ever be a consensus? I guess not.
But I guess although the topic is futile, the discussion as a dynamic change-agent is very healthy. Stagnation is afterall equal to death.
I also feel that many things are debated over that have little practical function. It would be better for everyone if we all strived to improve practical life for all, and improve understanding and tolerance, not just judge which club is finally wrong and which club is finally right.
Just some thoughts.
Peace all!
Ulf