Are we on earth because of Adam?
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I don't understand how you're telling me to "do some research on human evolution" when you're the one who seems to be implying something that is strange or contrary to scientific knowledge or whatever. Its like someone farting in an elevator and looking at me and saying "excuse you!".
In the Popol Vuh, the Book of Mayan, translated by Franc?sco Xim?nez, a Dominican priest, into Spanish, in which he described about the myth of creation was that the first man was spawned from the earth, exactly what the Quran says. The rest are conjectures.
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I think I didn't understand though? Like what do you think I'm maybe suggesting and what are you suggesting instead? I understood the one soul thing I think which I didn't mind, but when you mentioned the evolution thing I'm not sure totally what was being suggested.
Salaam Freedom.
Here's my humble effort in answering your 2 questions
Like what do you think I'm maybe suggesting
I don't know. You started of with Eve being created out of Adam - then admitted that 41 can potentially speak about Human soul and spirit - rather than actual physical humans - then seemed to have taken a tone where you were accepting evolution but insisting that even theory of evolution includes some degree of incest behavior - and finally seem to be going round the cycle implying Quranic understanding and evolution are not fully compatible.
Why do not you clarify what is that you are suggesting - and if possible do that without your offensive jokes - atleast for the sake of the month of Ramadan and fasting which you seem to advocate.
what are you suggesting instead?
I believe what I am suggesting is quite consistent with what Someone and Novice are suggesting. This is kind of ironical because I am also someone novice - so do take my opinions with a grain of salt
If it was not obvious enough let me specify step by step
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Allah started the creation from his Own Nafs (Soul / prakrity) - the Singular soul that exists timelessly and created out of it it's mate which is the spirit (rooh/ pourusha) - the soul and spirit then manifested in billions of humans through the wombs of the mothers.
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The creation of the physical body of mankind started from sticky clay in a planet named earth. due to some miraculously complex arrangement of matters inside underwater sticky clay primitive life form sprung out of non-living organism. Allah said "be" and it was.
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From the earliest organism all creatures of earth came out of water. Through billions of years of shaping and reshaping (aka evolution), the organism created out of clay was ready to assume the role of Khalifa of Allah on earth.
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Allah chose the first "human" in Adam and taught him names of things. Adam became the first person to acquire as his "mate" a human spirit (loaded with human intellect + conscience). Adam and his mate (the human spirit) started to live in the rich forest (jannah) along with other humanoids.
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Due to extra curious nature Adam breached some sort of social custom / ruling within the premitive humanoid society (approached / ate from the prohibited tree - both metaphorically and physically) - and got banished from the earlier society along with a few of his fellow friends - some of them enemy to others, and were sent down from the forest (jannah) to earth (ground) to make a living.
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The different lifestyle of Adam and his group led them to loose extra hair in their body, they became more distinct from forest based apes, their private parts became more visible and prominent and they started to use "clothing" from leaves.
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Subsequently, Allah relented upon Adam, taught him (and his group) speech. Eventually all humanoids got down to earth and joined Adam and co.
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I am not sure whether Adam was an individual or a generic name to identify the early humans who became distinct as a species. Most likely the term "Adam" represents both in Qur'an. Note, Qur'an also addresses "Insan" (Human) as third person singular as if "Insan" is the name of a person.
Once again I'd like to reiterate that the above is one of many possible scenarios which are compatible with Quranic narrative. I am by no way suggesting that this is the firm truth that Qur'an is telling us. Qur'an says what it says, it is upto us to take them as a sign and be guided accordingly.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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I don't understand how you're telling me to "do some research on human evolution" when you're the one who seems to be implying something that is strange or contrary to scientific knowledge or whatever. Its like someone farting in an elevator and looking at me and saying "excuse you!".
Let me clarify it again on this forum brother that everyone is responsible for one's actions. You are free to follow your understanding and so am I. No compulsion in DEEN. If you can do a health academic discussion you are more than welcome to do it. Otherwise
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The servants of the Rahman who walk on the earth humbly, and when the ignorant people speak to them, they reply peacefully, (2563)and
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For you is your DEEN, and for me, my DEEN.?(1096) -
Salaam Freedom.
Here's my humble effort in answering your 2 questions
Like what do you think I'm maybe suggesting
I don't know. You started of with Eve being created out of Adam - then admitted that 41 can potentially speak about Human soul and spirit - rather than actual physical humans - then seemed to have taken a tone where you were accepting evolution but insisting that even theory of evolution includes some degree of incest behavior - and finally seem to be going round the cycle implying Quranic understanding and evolution are not fully compatible.
Why do not you clarify what is that you are suggesting - and if possible do that without your offensive jokes - atleast for the sake of the month of Ramadan and fasting which you seem to advocate.
what are you suggesting instead?
I believe what I am suggesting is quite consistent with what Someone and Novice are suggesting. This is kind of ironical because I am also someone novice - so do take my opinions with a grain of salt
If it was not obvious enough let me specify step by step
-
Allah started the creation from his Own Nafs (Soul / prakrity) - the Singular soul that exists timelessly and created out of it it's mate which is the spirit (rooh/ pourusha) - the soul and spirit then manifested in billions of humans through the wombs of the mothers.
-
The creation of the physical body of mankind started from sticky clay in a planet named earth. due to some miraculously complex arrangement of matters inside underwater sticky clay primitive life form sprung out of non-living organism. Allah said "be" and it was.
-
From the earliest organism all creatures of earth came out of water. Through billions of years of shaping and reshaping (aka evolution), the organism created out of clay was ready to assume the role of Khalifa of Allah on earth.
-
Allah chose the first "human" in Adam and taught him names of things. Adam became the first person to acquire as his "mate" a human spirit (loaded with human intellect + conscience). Adam and his mate (the human spirit) started to live in the rich forest (jannah) along with other humanoids.
-
Due to extra curious nature Adam breached some sort of social custom / ruling within the premitive humanoid society (approached / ate from the prohibited tree - both metaphorically and physically) - and got banished from the earlier society along with a few of his fellow friends - some of them enemy to others, and were sent down from the forest (jannah) to earth (ground) to make a living.
-
The different lifestyle of Adam and his group led them to loose extra hair in their body, they became more distinct from forest based apes, their private parts became more visible and prominent and they started to use "clothing" from leaves.
-
Subsequently, Allah relented upon Adam, taught him (and his group) speech. Eventually all humanoids got down to earth and joined Adam and co.
-
I am not sure whether Adam was an individual or a generic name to identify the early humans who became distinct as a species. Most likely the term "Adam" represents both in Qur'an. Note, Qur'an also addresses "Insan" (Human) as third person singular as if "Insan" is the name of a person.
Once again I'd like to reiterate that the above is one of many possible scenarios which are compatible with Quranic narrative. I am by no way suggesting that this is the firm truth that Qur'an is telling us. Qur'an says what it says, it is upto us to take them as a sign and be guided accordingly.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanI don't know about all these friends and the society, it seemed that Adam (if an individual) was before them or rather alone seeming. If Adam was a human in the shape we are in now, I don't know, but I guess I'm of the more traditional understanding somewhat that there was Adam, he had a physical mate they both prayed and asked for forgiveness etc. I don't know why the Qur'an would be weird and saying "they both" or whatever meaning Adam and his soul as separate and both asking for forgiveness. I believe its likely the people at the time also understood it in a rather traditional way as well.
You're asking me to refrain from jokes when there are things like this posted?
"their private parts became more visible and prominent"
Just itching to say "me too!"
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I don't know about all these friends and the society, it seemed that Adam (if an individual) was before them or rather alone seeming. If Adam was a human in the shape we are in now, I don't know, but I guess I'm of the more traditional understanding somewhat that there was Adam, he had a physical mate they both prayed and asked for forgiveness etc. I don't know why the Qur'an would be weird and saying "they both" or whatever meaning Adam and his soul as separate and both asking for forgiveness. I believe its likely the people at the time also understood it in a rather traditional way as well.
Salaam FreedomStands.
You are entitled to have your understanding. The flat-earthers are entitled to have their understanding. No one is forcing anyone to change their understanding.
And by the way, your comment "I believe its likely the people at the time also understood it in a rather traditional way as well." is particulalrly interesting. This helps me demonstrate what I was trying to explain to you in the other thread about "believing the book" vs. "having faith in the signs of the book". If one is concluding that the stories in Qur'an must have a firm interpretation - so if people of the time understood Qur'an in a way and we understand in a different way either they are wrong or we are - then one is trying to seek interpretation of Qur'an and insisting on believing the interpretation.
"...But none knows its interpretation except Allah - and those deeply-rooted in knowledge ? they say, ?We put faith in it, everything is from near our Master? - but none rethinks except the men of discretion."
"people at the time (of Prophet)" also potentially believed in flat earth, creation of the universe in 6 calendar days and sun setting in dark water. That does not bar us from enhancing our understanding based on what Allah revealed to us as the likely "truth".
The truth is from your Master, so do not be the doubter.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salaam FreedomStands.
You are entitled to have your understanding. The flat-earthers are entitled to have their understanding. No one is forcing anyone to change their understanding.
And by the way, your comment "I believe its likely the people at the time also understood it in a rather traditional way as well." is particulalrly interesting. This helps me demonstrate what I was trying to explain to you in the other thread about "believing the book" vs. "having faith in the signs of the book". If one is concluding that the stories in Qur'an must have a firm interpretation - so if people of the time understood Qur'an in a way and we understand in a different way either they are wrong or we are - then one is trying to seek interpretation of Qur'an and insisting on believing the interpretation.
"...But none knows its interpretation except Allah - and those deeply-rooted in knowledge ? they say, ?We put faith in it, everything is from near our Master? - but none rethinks except the men of discretion."
May Allah guide us all to the straight rote.
Regards,
ArmanOh, by my comment I just meant they probably understood it more like the usual way back then too I suspect, not that the way they understood it is necessarily true or validates anything, just that the Qur'an was revealed to those people and didn't perhaps clarify anything to totally make them re-imagine the story they had already perhaps heard in the Bible in any radical way, where in other cases that are even less important seeming (dispute of the cave dwellers for example), it did try to clarify, and in the case of Jesus too, but let people apparently retain their views without much extra corrective commentary in this case.
I just don't know why the "soul" is being separated from the person and spoken of like a separate individual or whatever and it isn't apparently being clarified to people that it means a soul rather than a physical mate.
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Almost what I was writing about, but in far fewer lines and complicated explanations, and less involvement of religion.
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Almost what I was writing about, but in far fewer lines and complicated explanations, and less involvement of religion.
I thought that too actually! That it sounded like some of the stuff you had been saying, and in that interpretation one could easily make the "go down, enemies one to another" thing about the spirit and the body and Satan and whatever.
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I thought that too actually! That it sounded like some of the stuff you had been saying, and in that interpretation one could easily make the "go down, enemies one to another" thing about the spirit and the body and Satan and whatever.
One's biggest enemy is oneself.
Be well
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https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAoME_aMm1w
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Salam,
I have not read the posts, but am responding to the thread title.
We are not on Earth because Adam sinned. We are on earth to fulfill the trial that we opted to accept - in return for immortality and a better life.
Adam and his wife's sin merely moved us from lush gardens to a challenging environment where we have to work for a living. It's like parents who emigrate from one place to the other and there kids end up struggling in the land.
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Salam,
I have not read the posts, but am responding to the thread title.
We are not on Earth because Adam sinned. We are on earth to fulfill the trial that we opted to accept - in return for immortality and a better life.
Adam and his wife's sin merely moved us from lush gardens to a challenging environment where we have to work for a living. It's like parents who emigrate from one place to the other and there kids end up struggling in the land.
Looks like my post count is coming close to yours gradually.
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LOL. You are welcome to exceed my count...
I'm just a master debater, with a great deal of stuff that comes out.
I do appreciate your red name coming along when I see it and that you, though you are a mighty one in the forum, still contribute and respond to people!
That is really nice, I like it lots, and your posts are good too of course.
I like when administrators participate and stuff with the heathen swarms, if only a trickle.
Somewhere in the crowd is FreedomStands, the master debater; key stroke after key stroke, and much ado about Nothing.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdlUadC2soE
