If incest is prohibited, how did the human race populate from Adam?
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Peace to all,
Great posts Arnold, you have again helped explain some very difficult topics, I for one believe in both creation and evolution, why cant God do both, in fact I know there is a verse in the Quran that says God created and then he continues his creation, which matches both what we believe without proof (creation) and what we see and can prove (evolution) both are from God, and we are asked to believe in the seen and the unseen in the Quran so this fits nicely I think.
Kurt
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Peace Kurt,
God created the Universe as a precise mechanism, through cause and effect and the boundaries of the mechanism, intelliegnt had to emerge in this universe. This is His Law.
A God that has to interfer constantly in the creation is not a smart god to me, but one that creates a precise mechanism in which a definite outcome of life would emerge is one smart indeed.
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Bro Arnold gave a simple and effective hint of evolution when he indicated the implications of thw word " Rabb".
Here is another clue
1528 And your Lord said to the malai'ka "I am creating a human being from a hardened clay."
1529 "So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him."Note that in the Arabic text of 1529, we encounter the phrase word " "
One point worth mentioning is that in the eclassical Arabic language, the word " " actually means WHEN, not IF. It implies something that is certain to happen at a future date. Whereas the correct equivalent for "if" would be " " ("inn". You can easily verify this.
So when God declared to the malai'ka that he would be creating a human being from clay, this human being wasn't yet qualified to become the vicegerent of God on Earth. However, WHEN God perfected this human creation (at a later time) through breathing if his Spirit (Ruuh) into it, it became Adam. It was only then that Adam was able to make the forces of nature (mala'ika) subservient to him. (Hence the command to the malaika to " prostrate" to him.
The usage of the word "WHEN" in 1529 also screams evolution.
The breathing if God's RUUH into us is what made us distinct and superior to His other creations. This is the missing link that Darwin supporters are still searching for. No one can tell for sure when it happened. But it is safe to assume that from the time of first creation to the time if evolution into Adam, was a gradual process which may have taken thousands of years. This is the grand scale of things, and it does resemble, to a certain extent, how the fetus evolves slowly over a period of 9 months in the mother's belly, as described in the following verse
7113 "Why do you not seek God humbly."
7114 "While He created you in stages?"Such is evolution but on a smaller scale.
Peace..
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And what about verse 359?
359 - "The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was."
Peace
Jesus came about as any other human being?
What about 252?
2520 - "And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others; will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing."
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peace
And what about verse 359?
359 - "The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was."
Peace
i think that this verse was sent because christians up until then believed that jesus was created without a man, someknd of miracle birth that goes against laws of nature and in this verse we see that his (jesus's) case is just like adam's (rest of mankind) who came from both male and female.
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Peace Arnold
I believe Jannah and Jahannam are descriptions of states of Mankind that occur in this Life AND the Next Life.
Never did I claim it was only in this Life. Jannah means an Garden that has so much growth, the ground is not seen (JNN=covered/not seen, same root as Jinn). Jahannam is the name of the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, people were sacrificed and executed in the old days there. So it was used as a metaphor for a state of Mankind which cannot develop. Jahim does not only mean fire, it also means to stop something from progressing.
When we live according to System of Allah we can create a state of Mankind in which it can develop without stopping (no Jahim/barriers), this is Jannah, an ever growing garden. In this state the Human Nafs/Self can develop itself so it can conquer death and develop further after death and go into the next phase of the Universe, this is also again being in the state of Jannah. The Quran talks about 2 Jannah's, in this Life and the Next.
If Mankind does not live accroding to the Divine Laws of the Universe, it will keep going up and down and constantly be in a state of Jahannam, where it cannot develop (jahim/barrier), it is in a state of fire as its potentials are wasted and burned up. As a person keeps going against the Laws of the Universe, it cannot conquer death in a positive way and ends up in the Universal garbagedump, metaphorically called Jahannam.
Just as the Quran says in 1317, only that which benefits Mankind will keep existing, just as evolution throws out what is not useful or strong enough, in the same way the Universe will throw out those people which are not fit for further development.
Sorry if I offended you. What I meant was that when I read your description of Jannat and Jahanam on your pages, it was directed towards this life and I didnt see any mention of the next (meaning akhirah) unless I misread it.
I really like your intrepretation, it takes away the fairytales that Muslims, Christians, etc. blindly follow. I also believe about Janaat and Jahannam in this life as well. Its a state of mind.
Keep up the good work.
Peace
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Peace Br. OPF, Pazuzu,
I think my explanation have been very sparse. What I am implying is I accept that man was/is created in stages. But those stages are fairly obvious, aren't they? Like you said, Br. Pazuzu
But it is safe to assume that from the time of first creation to the time if evolution into Adam, was a gradual process which may have taken thousands of years. This is the grand scale of things, and it does resemble, to a certain extent, how the fetus evolves slowly over a period of 9 months in the mother's belly, as described in the following verse
7113 "Why do you not seek God humbly."
7114 "While He created you in stages?"Such is evolution but on a smaller scale.
Peace..
You hit the nail on the head when you yourself identified the stages of "biological evolution" above from inception to perfection. That is a downright verifiable biological fact. Now if you say, that Adam was a product of a slow process of evolution which may have taken place over thousands of year, then, please explain why 359, when Jesus is being compared to Adam, doesn't go something like this
"The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.... in stages....eventually."
This verse is as simple and straightforward as it can be. and the second half of the verse is referring to Adam. "Be" and he was. Period.
As for 1529
However, WHEN God perfected this human creation (at a later time) through breathing if his Spirit (Ruuh) into it, it became Adam.
By your point of view, Adam was perfected BECAUSE God breathed his Ruuh in him, not before. So 1529 would be understood as "So when I perfect him, by blowing My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him."
Please try to understand this from my point of view. It seems like the theory of evolution is being forced in the Book. I'll just put a simple scenario. Wipe your mind clear of any theory of evolution and then, when you read about the stages, what would be the obvious interpretation that you would arrive at?
Just consider this point from 37.
37 - "He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are firm verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are allegorical. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its original interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding."
The Allegorical verses... people will tend to follow writings/sayings SIMILAR TO the allegorical verses, not the allegorical verses themselves. So, when you read the theory of evolution, you related it to the allegorical verses in the sense that, "yes, the Book alludes to something similar to this theory. Therefore, the theory must be the interpretation of those verses." That is exactly the trap that we should be avoiding.
Although, I am sure that most will not agree with my point of view in this regard, but I truly hope that you will understand where I am coming from. Because I feel that I have not been successful in getting my point across.
You will have to excuse me, if I have written anything irrelevant in the post. I am not as proficient as most in this forum.
Peace
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peace
i think that this verse was sent because christians up until then believed that jesus was created without a man, someknd of miracle birth that goes against laws of nature and in this verse we see that his (jesus's) case is just like adam's (rest of mankind) who came from both male and female.
Not only may it show that Jesus had two parents like the rest of us, but it may also point out that he (Jesus) is similar to Adam (mankind) in that he is no more divine than any one else of us, i.e. he is not a son of a god, or a version of God, or God, like christians say.
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Peace nerspi, Zulf,
It feels like I am the twilight zone. I actually can't believe what I am reading or what understanding I am getting from your posts. I hope for my sake that I am misinterpreting your posts.
peace
i think that this verse was sent because christians up until then believed that jesus was created without a man, someknd of miracle birth that goes against laws of nature and in this verse we see that his (jesus's) case is just like adam's (rest of mankind) who came from both male and female.
Not only may it show that Jesus had two parents like the rest of us, but it may also point out that he (Jesus) is similar to Adam (mankind) in that he is no more divine than any one else of us, i.e. he is not a son of a god, or a version of God, or God, like christians say.
Where is this coming from? Are you actually implying that Jesus had a father? The Book confirms what happened in the past, what is happening now and what is to occur in the future. It is the Truth. According to the Book, this is what the "christians" thought about Jesus because of his "miracle" birth
1068 - They have said, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He; He is the Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this . Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
Other verses along those lines are 2116, 17111, 184, 1988, 2126. 252, 37152.
Why they used to say that is possibly because they couldn't explain the "miracle" birth. If anything, 359 was revealed to explain its plausibility in light a Truth that they believed in (and still do) and could relate to, i.e. the creation of Adam or the first man, who was created with a father or mother. It questions them, If he (Adam) could be created by God without a father or mother, why is it not possible that a man could be born by God's will without a father?
Are these verses really that vague that apparently there are multiple interpretations to them?
Peace
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Peace Br. OPF, Pazuzu,
I think my explanation have been very sparse............................................................................
Peacehttp//uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Poof,_There_It_Is_Theory
When God says "be" and it exists, does that mean it comes as above? Simple question and a simple answer. The key point of 37 is the last section, which I think is quite obvious as to the meaning. Someone not having a firm grounding in a subject isn't in a position to comment on it.
The universe is conjectured by people to have been formed in stages, God says in the quran that it is formed in stages and describes some stages in detail, so why is it any different here?
As Arnold Yasin said, which God is more powerful, the one that creates something then patches up until it's "perfect", or the one that creates a completely autonomous creation that tends towards perfection by physical law?
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http//uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Poof,_There_It_Is_Theory
When God says "be" and it exists, does that mean it comes as above? Simple question and a simple answer. The key point of 37 is the last section, which I think is quite obvious as to the meaning. Someone not having a firm grounding in a subject isn't in a position to comment on it.
The universe is conjectured by people to have been formed in stages, God says in the quran that it is formed in stages and describes some stages in detail, so why is it any different here?
As Arnold Yasin said, which God is more powerful, the one that creates something then patches up until it's "perfect", or the one that creates a completely autonomous creation that tends towards perfection by physical law?
Thanks for your post, Br. OPF. The one thing that I have learned from it is that I don't have a place yet, in this discussion. Thank you for pointing that out to me, before I could make a really serious mistake. I apologize to everyone for any unpleasantries that I may have uttered.
Peace
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Thanks for your post, Br. OPF. The one thing that I have learned from it is that I don't have a place yet, in this discussion. Thank you for pointing that out to me, before I could make a really serious mistake. I apologize to everyone for any unpleasantries that I may have uttered.
Peace
That was a comment on 37 itself, not on anyone in this thread ???
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This becomes a problematic question if you believe that Adam was a single individual man.
This is not necessarily true. Adam is a collective noun indicating MANKIND. God created Adam (mankind) and made him his "khalifa" (vicegerent) on Earth. God also made the "malai'ka" (forces of nature) prostrate themselves to Adam (mankind). This prostration is symbolic. It means that God made these natural forces serve mankind.
Furthermore, there is no Eve mentioned anywhere in the Quran. The Quran mentions Adam and his mate (zawjuhu), not Adam and his wife (imra'atuhu). Hence the phrase Adam and his mate must be understood symbolically or collectively.
Those who are used to talking about Adam and Eve as two simgle idividuals are under the influence of the corrupted Jewish scriptures.
The Quran does not contradict science. Belief that the 6 billion+ humans on teh Earth today came from a single couple is scientifically impossible.
Furthermore, the Quran states clearly that Noah was the first prophet.
Peace...
Um, actually Pazuzu, the idea that 6+ billion humans today are descendants of a single couple is scientifically possible. In fact, in one theory of species, the phylogeny species concept, to be a species all existing individuals of a population must be the descendants of a common ancestor--since Homo sapiens are sexually reproducing species then the first Homo sapiens must be descendants of a couple.
That said, it is also possible (probably more possible) that the first Homo sapiens were a small population, descendants of another species.
What we should be questioning is the belief that the first humans had no biological parents.
Shanavas' book had a (to me) more acceptable translation of khalifah. Not 'vicegerent' but 'successor'. Makes more sense if humans are successors of previous species!
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Peace all,
I agree with the understanding that "adam" is representative of mankind - thus, there is no contradiction with the incest prohibition. Further, "adam" was taught the names of all things, indicating the ability to speak and learn and put things in their proper places. This also coincides with the current understanding of evolution.
Sharp001, you asked
if you say, that Adam was a product of a slow process of evolution which may have taken place over thousands of year, then, please explain why 359, when Jesus is being compared to Adam
The answer is right in the ayah itself
The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.359 tells us that both Adam and Isa were born from dust/clay via the "be" command from God.
347 tells us also that God creates via the "be" command.This, however, is not unique to Adam and Isa...
3020 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust;
Who is this in reference to? See also 1837, 225, 3511, 4067.
Furthermore, according to 4068 "...when He decrees an affair, He only says to it Be, and it is". Notice, that this is not a special command just for Adam and Isa. It is whenever Allah decrees an affair.
Therefore, the conclusion is
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created from dust/clay
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created via the "be" commandSo what is 359 telling us?
Adam and Isa were men created just like all other men.Peace,
Tay -
Peace all
Therefore, the conclusion is
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created from dust/clay
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created via the "be" commandSo what is 359 telling us?
Adam and Isa were men created just like all other men.Couldn't have said it any better. Also, if you don't believe in evolution, what exactly does it mean when it says that we are created from dust? Also, that all life is created from water. That is EVOLUTION ITSELF! From one stage to another.
Peace
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Muhammed Asad
3 59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is.* (3 60) the truth from thy Sustainer; be not, then, among the doubters!
*Lit., "The parable of Jesus is as the parable of Adam...", etc. The expression mathal (rendered above as "nature" is often metaphorically employed to denote the state or condition (of a person or a thing), and is in this sense - as the commentators have pointed out - synonymous with sifah (the "quality" or "nature" of a thing). As is evident from the sequence, the above passage is part of an argument against the Christian doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. The Qur'an stresses here, as in many other places, the fact that Jesus, like Adam - by which name, in this context, the whole human race is meant - was only a mortal "created out of dust", i.e., out of substances, both organic and inorganic, which are found in their elementary forms on and in the earth. Cf. also 1837, 225, 3020, 3511, 4067, where the Qur'an speaks of all human beings as "created out of dust". That "Adam" stands here for the human race is clearly implied in the use of the present tense in the last word of this sentence.
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Br. Arnold,
Could you please provide reference to those verses?
Peace
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=96fa8fe0483eb078fb4b440bfd2fcd67
3133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright. (Paradise is not confined to the Heavens. Like Hell, it begins right here in this worldly life).
1697 Whoever, whether male or female, does works that help others and is a believer, We shall certainly cause them to live a good life, and We shall grant them the rewards considering the best of their actions.
4131 We are close to you in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. In it (in your paradise on the earth and in the Hereafter) you shall have all that you may desire and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for.
