The After Life
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We have a day and a night life; day life is for us to live and earn out of what god has promised for us; and night life is a dead life whereupon you have no control; we are in god's mercy; and unless we are given back our life there is no way we can ever be awake and continue to complete our life span.There are 2 deaths; and 2 rising ups. First death and afterlife is the nightly sleep and rising in this life and the second sleep is when we finally die and the second rising is on the day of judgement.
During the nightly death in this world we are raised to god's world which we call the dream world; there we witness god's treasures and His immense power; all impossible events take place there because it is god's world; we are dead log on the bed but in our dreams we are raised to a different world with the same body; for others' eyes it seems as if our body is lying on the cot; but infact we aren't there; our bodies are likened to our actual presence. We are raised to god's world as the trance of sleep overtakes us. And as day breaks our lives are returned back to us for us to continue our stint in this world; and on whoso's soul death is fixed it is never to be returned. Yes until the DoJ.
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Zenje
No you don't. Infact, if there's no afterlife, more the reason for one not to care about injustices on others. Sure you can take care of yourself, but why should you bother about others?
Nice comment Mr. Zenje, seems you have a good eye on the nature.
Mr. Lobster very interesting topic, but i would like to know how you want to discuss it via Quran or via Philosphy?
Because Quran clear cut disagrees with what you said. -
Peace Lobster,
I believe that heaven and hell in the quran are experienced in this life.
And I'm starting to feel that the concept of the after life is more wishful thinking than anything else.
For one, we don't have any evidence of life after death. And I think (I maybe wrong) that life after death requires a supernatural "soul" which again we have no evidence of. We don't have an "immaterial" part to our being.The afterlife is one of the most certain things that you can verify. Just look into your imagination. Can't you imagine, as others have, that sometime in the future, science could take DNA for dead people and make them again? If we can imagine this with our tiny little jelly-like mass that we call brain then can't the creator of the heavens and the earth actually do it? Certainly, the answer is yes. This is why in reality anyone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, doesn't believe in the creator.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Lobster,
The afterlife is one of the most certain things that you can verify. Just look into your imagination. Can't you imagine, as others have, that sometime in the future, science could take DNA for dead people and make them again? If we can imagine this with our tiny little jelly-like mass that we call brain then can't the creator of the heavens and the earth actually do it? Certainly, the answer is yes. This is why in reality anyone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, doesn't believe in the creator.
Peace,Ayman
All very well said.
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Peace,
Belief in the hereafter is through our actions, not our words IMO. If one does evil things (despite the knowledge), one doesn't really believe in the hereafter because they feel invincible (3945 is a good example). As for one who does good things, well 6920
"I knew that I was going to be held accountable."
The evil-doers don't expect to be held accountable. (7827)
I can say over and over that I believe in the after-life, but unless my actions go along with that, those words are useless and meaningless.
peace
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peace all
You can believe that, but what is your reason for believing it? Why do you believe in this promise? That's what I would like to know.
Thats my belief , also I find some PEACE in that way when I believe "amin" the intelligent program (capable of learning) will one day get its due based on its performance in this world.
thinking about who we are, may be we are some kind of empty god sent or given CAPSULES of consiousnous, that came here to EXPEREIENCE this world,universe, body etc etc and make an influence, this capsules on death will be rated by GOD and again be given the ultimate EXPERIENCE for ever.
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peace
Raj-ah, you said
Mr. Lobster very interesting topic, but i would like to know how you want to discuss it via Quran or via Philosphy?
Because Quran clear cut disagrees with what you said.Anything that leads me to a better understanding. I'm not perfectly sure about what the quran says, but I think that it says heaven and hell are experienced in this life (AND the next? I don't know).
Ayman,
The afterlife is one of the most certain things that you can verify. Just look into your imagination. Can't you imagine, as others have, that sometime in the future, science could take DNA for dead people and make them again? If we can imagine this with our tiny little jelly-like mass that we call brain then can't the creator of the heavens and the earth actually do it? Certainly, the answer is yes. This is why in reality anyone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, doesn't believe in the creator.
But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
And a huge part of what I am is my memory, how does that get transported to my new self? If we're staying within the known laws of nature, then it's not really possible.
My point is, to believe in all of this, you need to believe in the supernatural. But do we really have any way of supporting that belief?
Or maybe there is more about this universe we don't know yet. Maybe in the future we'll scientifically prove the existence of an after life, but right here, right now, in the present, do we have any good reason to believe in it?
Do we have any good reason to believe even in a supernatural Creator? -
Lobster wrote
peace
Raj-ah, you said
Quote
Mr. Lobster very interesting topic, but i would like to know how you want to discuss it via Quran or via Philosphy?
Because Quran clear cut disagrees with what you said.
Anything that leads me to a better understanding. I'm not perfectly sure about what the quran says, but I think that it says heaven and hell are experienced in this life (AND the next? I don't know).To discuss Heaven and Hell we must first try to find out, is there any life after this life or what we call death? and in this quest let us first see what Quran has to say about it
"O mankind! if you have a doubt about the Resurrection, that We created you out of dust then out of sperm then out of a leech-like clot then out of a morsel of flesh partly formed and partly unformed in order that We may manifest to you; And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term then do We bring you out as babes then that you may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die and some are sent back to the feeblest old age so that they know nothing after having known. And you see the earth barren and lifeless but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred it swells and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth."
You are not perfectly sure about what Quran says, but I am perfectly sure after reading this verse what Quran is trying to say.
Temptations of this world and its transitory pleasures often make man forget that the life hereafter is an impending actuality. Many of those who claim to believe in the life to come, act and behave as if it belonged to a distant future, and had no bearing to their present activities and manner of living.Al-Quran
"We created you from earth and return you to earth and then bring you forth once more.""The unbelievers say Is this not strange that we should be brought back after dying and turning to dust? Such a return is impossible. But We are fully aware of what the earth takes from them and it is We Who possess the Preserved Tablet."
Therefore dear Lobster these and many other Ayats of Quran tells us that there is a life after death, now once it is clear let us see what is Quran's concept of Hell and heaven
When the Prophet of Islam expounded the topic of Qiyamah (resurrection) to the pagan Arabs, a Bedouin named Ubayy bin Khalaf picked up a decayed bone and set out for Madinah to visit the Prophet. In the hope of refuting the arguments of the Prophet and the logic of the Quran on which they were based, he raised up the bone, as if it were a valuable and convincing piece of evidence, and crumbled it to dust, scattering the pieces in the air. Then he addressed the Prophet Muhammad these crude, unadorned words inspired by his rebelliousness and ignorance "Who will restore to life the scattered particles of this rotten bone?"
He believed that he would thus be able to refute the arguments of the Prophet(s) and to destroy the belief of others in resurrection of the dead. His ignorant mode of thought prevented him from having any correct notion of the creation of being, so that he imagined that the scattered particles of a decayed bone could not possibly be brought back to life. He adamantly maintained that the reassembling of the countless particles of the body was unacceptable to man's reason.
Reply of Quran
say "Who first brought them to life will restore them to life. He has knowledge of all His creation. .. Is the Creator Who brought into being the heavens and the earth, incapable of creating the like thereof? Certainly He is the Creator and All-Knowing." -
It is not that God from His infinite state rewards us or punishes us, or that there is one fold or enclosure called heaven, in which the virtuous are allowed to be, and another called hell, in which all the sinners are penned. In reality we experience heaven and hell in our everyday life all the time. But here we experience both states, the dream and the physical life
This thought of yours is the thought of Sufiism and I am sorry to say the Sufi's are less Practical persons, they have their own understanding of religon and God.
'Heaven is the vision of fulfilled desire, and hell the shadow of a soul on fire,' says Omar Khayyam.
Heaven is for the pious whose virtues were for this end, and hell is for the wicked who themselves have kindled its fire. The Sufi says, 'I am beyond both. Happy in the arms of the eternal peace. Neither can the joy of heaven tempt me, nor can the fire of hell touch me, for I have embraced the bliss and have kissed the curse, and have been raised above life's joys and sorrows.'
According to what I understand This is what is your concept or near to it of Hell and Heaven and we will shortly discuss what Quran tells us about Hell and Heaven.
Lobster
But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
But this only is the beginning and which tells us that what Quran is teling us is nothing unscientific and is possible
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peace
Raj-ah, you saidAnything that leads me to a better understanding. I'm not perfectly sure about what the quran says, but I think that it says heaven and hell are experienced in this life (AND the next? I don't know).
Ayman,But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
And a huge part of what I am is my memory, how does that get transported to my new self? If we're staying within the known laws of nature, then it's not really possible.
My point is, to believe in all of this, you need to believe in the supernatural. But do we really have any way of supporting that belief?
Or maybe there is more about this universe we don't know yet. Maybe in the future we'll scientifically prove the existence of an after life, but right here, right now, in the present, do we have any good reason to believe in it?
Do we have any good reason to believe even in a supernatural Creator?Let's say you can "copy and paste" space, don't you think that the person pasted is you? I think they would contest that. If you can take a block of space and describe every last property of it at the smallest scale, why can't you clone it equally so? Now, a creator has more than enough knowledge than that. Computers don't come from rocks, and if the creator that turned a rock into a living breathing human (eventually ;D) also happened to write the quran, is there anything wrong?
To believe the opposite you would need belief in a supernatural soul or "life essence" or any other quantum flapdoodle which happens to be immune to duplication. Prove the existance of that.
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peace OPF,
(sorry for the late reply)
Let's say you can "copy and paste" space, don't you think that the person pasted is you? I think they would contest that. If you can take a block of space and describe every last property of it at the smallest scale, why can't you clone it equally so? Now, a creator has more than enough knowledge than that.
Yes. But what is this "creator?" What proof do we have that there is such a being or force that can do this?
Plus, if you do recreate ME, you have to recreate everything EXACTLY the way it was, which means I have to be born again in the same world, doesn't it? If you can change all the variables and still keep me constant, then there must be some part of me that isn't part of this world, and that's leading toward an immaterial, supernatural soul, which we have no evidence of.Computers don't come from rocks, and if the creator that turned a rock into a living breathing human (eventually Grin) also happened to write the quran, is there anything wrong?
What does that have to do with anything? Let's say the creator did write the quran...that doesn't change the question I asked earlier, what is this creator and what reason do we have in believing in it?
To believe the opposite you would need belief in a supernatural soul or "life essence" or any other quantum flapdoodle which happens to be immune to duplication. Prove the existance of that.
I don't understand...the opposite of what?
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Peace Lobster,
Ayman,But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
And a huge part of what I am is my memory, how does that get transported to my new self? If we're staying within the known laws of nature, then it's not really possible.The "memory" is just like anything you learn. You would simply start as you did as a baby and re-learn. If you are subjected to the same inputs, your memory would be the same. So the only reason you are saying that you wouldn't be the same is that deep inside, you know that this statement that you said earlier is false
And I think (I maybe wrong) that life after death requires a supernatural "soul" which again we have no evidence of. We don't have an "immaterial" part to our being.
You know that there is more to you than your physical side.
My point is, to believe in all of this, you need to believe in the supernatural. But do we really have any way of supporting that belief?
Yes. I already showed you how you know this.
Or maybe there is more about this universe we don't know yet. Maybe in the future we'll scientifically prove the existence of an after life, but right here, right now, in the present, do we have any good reason to believe in it?
Yes. There is more to yourself than what you see and you know it.
Do we have any good reason to believe even in a supernatural Creator?
There are more good reasons than we can count.
Peace,
Ayman
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Well, none of us are going to convince you if there is a after life. That is something you must convince yourself of. If you are serious about it
and want God's help to do it. Do what the Quran tells you to do.Cut all your ties to everyone and everything in your life and depend entirely upon God.
God has promised us that if we do this He will then prove Himself to you...
It works, I did it....
I am convinced of Heaven and Hell in this life as well as the after life.
Perhaps it is time to sell all you have and give it to the poor and go live with the homeless, it is there you will find God...
For those blessed with Faith do not need to do this to believe...
Daud
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peace Ayman,
The "memory" is just like anything you learn. You would simply start as you did as a baby and re-learn. If you are subjected to the same inputs, your memory would be the same. So the only reason you are saying that you wouldn't be the same is that deep inside, you know that this statement that you said earlier is false
If I am subjected to EXACTLY the same inputs, my memory would be the same. Or at least very similar if not exact.
I said that an exact re-creation would mean that I would be born again in this life...wouldn't it?
And if it's not exact, or too different, then the inputs wouldn't be the same, and I would no longer be me.
The only way you can change all the inputs and still preserve the same self is if the self consists of some immaterial part that does not depend on outside influence. Do you agree?
If you are a materialist (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), you cannot believe in an immaterial soul or a god.
So my question is, are materialists wrong? Is there an immaterial part to our being? If so, what is it and what is the proof of its existence? -
Peace Raj-ah,
I know that the quran talks about resurrection, but I can't be sure about what it says because the translation could be wrong, etc.
I think the quran does say heaven and hell are experienced in this life. Maybe there is a next life too, I don't know.
What the quran says is meaningless, though, if I cannot prove it. -
Peace Raj-ah,
I know that the quran talks about resurrection, but I can't be sure about what it says because the translation could be wrong, etc.
I think the quran does say heaven and hell are experienced in this life. Maybe there is a next life too, I don't know.
What the quran says is meaningless, though, if I cannot prove it.Salaam,
Here?s a simplistic approach If you look around you would see much evidence of an intelligent design, which can?t be mere coincidence. Whatever you study; atmosphere, science, gravity etc. you would find that it is all based on some kind of balance, which gives you an ideal heavenly atmosphere. However if that balance is disturbed you will soon see consequential results, like climate change, deformity etc. and sample the hell in this world
Similarly our creation can not be based on imbalance; there has to be a balance of our actions in this world and the hereafter. For example rich countries violate the environment, create imbalance resulting in pollution based diseases all kinds of suffering, like diseases, floods etc. and all suffer due to mistakes of few.
People in the poor countries that care for the atmosphere end up suffering too, because the rich and wealthy polluted the world? unfair suffering ?no balance. This goes against the laws of nature. Among the countries, who consumed most of the world?s resources and contribute to pollution are those who do not engage in wasteful consumption, who care and do not disturb the environmental balance by their actions, yet they get the blame too. So the balance lies in the individual responsibility for their actions as khalifa of the earth.
By the same token, any one who gets away with wrong in this world will have to pay back in the next world. All those who suffer in this world of injustice will find justice in next world and that corresponds with the law of nature which is balance.
If you believe that this life is all you have and nothing else then this is not a balanced approach and it is baseless.
Best regards
farida -
Peace Raj-ah,
I know that the quran talks about resurrection, but I can't be sure about what it says because the translation could be wrong, etc.
I think the quran does say heaven and hell are experienced in this life. Maybe there is a next life too, I don't know.
What the quran says is meaningless, though, if I cannot prove it.Why don't you ask God to prove it to you?