The After Life
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It is not that God from His infinite state rewards us or punishes us, or that there is one fold or enclosure called heaven, in which the virtuous are allowed to be, and another called hell, in which all the sinners are penned. In reality we experience heaven and hell in our everyday life all the time. But here we experience both states, the dream and the physical life
This thought of yours is the thought of Sufiism and I am sorry to say the Sufi's are less Practical persons, they have their own understanding of religon and God.
'Heaven is the vision of fulfilled desire, and hell the shadow of a soul on fire,' says Omar Khayyam.
Heaven is for the pious whose virtues were for this end, and hell is for the wicked who themselves have kindled its fire. The Sufi says, 'I am beyond both. Happy in the arms of the eternal peace. Neither can the joy of heaven tempt me, nor can the fire of hell touch me, for I have embraced the bliss and have kissed the curse, and have been raised above life's joys and sorrows.'
According to what I understand This is what is your concept or near to it of Hell and Heaven and we will shortly discuss what Quran tells us about Hell and Heaven.
Lobster
But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
But this only is the beginning and which tells us that what Quran is teling us is nothing unscientific and is possible
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peace
Raj-ah, you saidAnything that leads me to a better understanding. I'm not perfectly sure about what the quran says, but I think that it says heaven and hell are experienced in this life (AND the next? I don't know).
Ayman,But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
And a huge part of what I am is my memory, how does that get transported to my new self? If we're staying within the known laws of nature, then it's not really possible.
My point is, to believe in all of this, you need to believe in the supernatural. But do we really have any way of supporting that belief?
Or maybe there is more about this universe we don't know yet. Maybe in the future we'll scientifically prove the existence of an after life, but right here, right now, in the present, do we have any good reason to believe in it?
Do we have any good reason to believe even in a supernatural Creator?Let's say you can "copy and paste" space, don't you think that the person pasted is you? I think they would contest that. If you can take a block of space and describe every last property of it at the smallest scale, why can't you clone it equally so? Now, a creator has more than enough knowledge than that. Computers don't come from rocks, and if the creator that turned a rock into a living breathing human (eventually ;D) also happened to write the quran, is there anything wrong?
To believe the opposite you would need belief in a supernatural soul or "life essence" or any other quantum flapdoodle which happens to be immune to duplication. Prove the existance of that.
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peace OPF,
(sorry for the late reply)
Let's say you can "copy and paste" space, don't you think that the person pasted is you? I think they would contest that. If you can take a block of space and describe every last property of it at the smallest scale, why can't you clone it equally so? Now, a creator has more than enough knowledge than that.
Yes. But what is this "creator?" What proof do we have that there is such a being or force that can do this?
Plus, if you do recreate ME, you have to recreate everything EXACTLY the way it was, which means I have to be born again in the same world, doesn't it? If you can change all the variables and still keep me constant, then there must be some part of me that isn't part of this world, and that's leading toward an immaterial, supernatural soul, which we have no evidence of.Computers don't come from rocks, and if the creator that turned a rock into a living breathing human (eventually Grin) also happened to write the quran, is there anything wrong?
What does that have to do with anything? Let's say the creator did write the quran...that doesn't change the question I asked earlier, what is this creator and what reason do we have in believing in it?
To believe the opposite you would need belief in a supernatural soul or "life essence" or any other quantum flapdoodle which happens to be immune to duplication. Prove the existance of that.
I don't understand...the opposite of what?
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Peace Lobster,
Ayman,But here's the thing, if you create someone with exactly the same DNA as me, he still wouldn't be ME. (Not even physically since there are other factors involved in determining your physical characteristics)
And a huge part of what I am is my memory, how does that get transported to my new self? If we're staying within the known laws of nature, then it's not really possible.The "memory" is just like anything you learn. You would simply start as you did as a baby and re-learn. If you are subjected to the same inputs, your memory would be the same. So the only reason you are saying that you wouldn't be the same is that deep inside, you know that this statement that you said earlier is false
And I think (I maybe wrong) that life after death requires a supernatural "soul" which again we have no evidence of. We don't have an "immaterial" part to our being.
You know that there is more to you than your physical side.
My point is, to believe in all of this, you need to believe in the supernatural. But do we really have any way of supporting that belief?
Yes. I already showed you how you know this.
Or maybe there is more about this universe we don't know yet. Maybe in the future we'll scientifically prove the existence of an after life, but right here, right now, in the present, do we have any good reason to believe in it?
Yes. There is more to yourself than what you see and you know it.
Do we have any good reason to believe even in a supernatural Creator?
There are more good reasons than we can count.
Peace,
Ayman
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Well, none of us are going to convince you if there is a after life. That is something you must convince yourself of. If you are serious about it
and want God's help to do it. Do what the Quran tells you to do.Cut all your ties to everyone and everything in your life and depend entirely upon God.
God has promised us that if we do this He will then prove Himself to you...
It works, I did it....
I am convinced of Heaven and Hell in this life as well as the after life.
Perhaps it is time to sell all you have and give it to the poor and go live with the homeless, it is there you will find God...
For those blessed with Faith do not need to do this to believe...
Daud
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peace Ayman,
The "memory" is just like anything you learn. You would simply start as you did as a baby and re-learn. If you are subjected to the same inputs, your memory would be the same. So the only reason you are saying that you wouldn't be the same is that deep inside, you know that this statement that you said earlier is false
If I am subjected to EXACTLY the same inputs, my memory would be the same. Or at least very similar if not exact.
I said that an exact re-creation would mean that I would be born again in this life...wouldn't it?
And if it's not exact, or too different, then the inputs wouldn't be the same, and I would no longer be me.
The only way you can change all the inputs and still preserve the same self is if the self consists of some immaterial part that does not depend on outside influence. Do you agree?
If you are a materialist (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), you cannot believe in an immaterial soul or a god.
So my question is, are materialists wrong? Is there an immaterial part to our being? If so, what is it and what is the proof of its existence? -
Peace Raj-ah,
I know that the quran talks about resurrection, but I can't be sure about what it says because the translation could be wrong, etc.
I think the quran does say heaven and hell are experienced in this life. Maybe there is a next life too, I don't know.
What the quran says is meaningless, though, if I cannot prove it. -
Peace Raj-ah,
I know that the quran talks about resurrection, but I can't be sure about what it says because the translation could be wrong, etc.
I think the quran does say heaven and hell are experienced in this life. Maybe there is a next life too, I don't know.
What the quran says is meaningless, though, if I cannot prove it.Salaam,
Here?s a simplistic approach If you look around you would see much evidence of an intelligent design, which can?t be mere coincidence. Whatever you study; atmosphere, science, gravity etc. you would find that it is all based on some kind of balance, which gives you an ideal heavenly atmosphere. However if that balance is disturbed you will soon see consequential results, like climate change, deformity etc. and sample the hell in this world
Similarly our creation can not be based on imbalance; there has to be a balance of our actions in this world and the hereafter. For example rich countries violate the environment, create imbalance resulting in pollution based diseases all kinds of suffering, like diseases, floods etc. and all suffer due to mistakes of few.
People in the poor countries that care for the atmosphere end up suffering too, because the rich and wealthy polluted the world? unfair suffering ?no balance. This goes against the laws of nature. Among the countries, who consumed most of the world?s resources and contribute to pollution are those who do not engage in wasteful consumption, who care and do not disturb the environmental balance by their actions, yet they get the blame too. So the balance lies in the individual responsibility for their actions as khalifa of the earth.
By the same token, any one who gets away with wrong in this world will have to pay back in the next world. All those who suffer in this world of injustice will find justice in next world and that corresponds with the law of nature which is balance.
If you believe that this life is all you have and nothing else then this is not a balanced approach and it is baseless.
Best regards
farida -
Peace Raj-ah,
I know that the quran talks about resurrection, but I can't be sure about what it says because the translation could be wrong, etc.
I think the quran does say heaven and hell are experienced in this life. Maybe there is a next life too, I don't know.
What the quran says is meaningless, though, if I cannot prove it.Why don't you ask God to prove it to you?