POLYGAMY NOT THERE IN QURAN?
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I misspelt the word blocked. Please allow me to correct it. It was in this part of huruf's post
The Qur'an is forever and complete guidance, but humanity is never complete nor forever. And I am not saying either that we should not study and try the utmost to understand every single aya. What I say in this case of the orphans and may be in others is that we may be blocked, because we are just unable to place ourselves in the precise situation in which the people to whom this was addressed found themselves. May be if we get an insight of it, the explanation would be so straightforward that we would be astonished.
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Well, depends on if you mean arabic orphans or english orphans! o Arabic orphans still have their mother according to many arabs. So I guess in America we just call that single parent homes. No orphans involved. Moms just look to get another husband when she can.
Im not sure what's going on in arab countries, or "muslim" countries. I would expect that their families are helping them out with the orphans. I don't think that a woman with kids losing her husband is automatically put on the market to be a co-wife (anymore than any single woman would). But I wouldn't be surprised that if some "orphans" were very wealthy with an inheritance, that someone close to them might be trying to spend their wealth before they are of marriageable age; or to marry them to take advantage of their wealth if they could. Allah knows best.
As Salaamu Alaikum,
Wa alikum salaaml IQO,
Thank you for elaborating on my contribution and correcting me on the gender side. However I was mainly addressing issues of single women, who sometimes have no choice (according to some very modern women)
As much as I respect your contribution I would however say that sometime we humans seem to take a very narrow minded approach of life? whereas Allah sees the wider approach and as a result we often get confused for example these issues here
Arabic orphans still have their mother according to many arabs.
This is not as black and white as we may think, single mother especially divorcee face lot of problems in those countries and how many Arabs go and marry those mothers in order to take care of the orphans?????
I guess in America we just call that single parent homes. No orphans involved. Moms just look to get another husband when she can
Why not? (Here one mustn?t forget that many men after divorce leave their children with the mother and are free to remarry, whereas Islamically it?s the woman who should enjoy this freedom, but, being a mother the idea of leaving her child is unbearable for her. So this is one way of holding a marriage together.)
Getting back to your point about no orphan involved, I am sorry; here you are taking a very limited approach. Be it America or England you may think that because the state takes care of single women and children so there are no orphans(orphan in other words vulnerable person) Sadly you would find children who are left at the mercy of foster parents and many are waiting to be adopted this includes many Muslim children who are finding it difficult to be housed in a ?Muslim? household as not many are willing to take care of someone else?s child.But I wouldn't be surprised that if some "orphans" were very wealthy with an inheritance, that someone close to them might be trying to spend their wealth before they are of marriageable age; or to marry them to take advantage of their wealth if they could..
Here again IMHO you are thinking of amwaal only in terms of monetary inheritance. I would think that the protection of a vulnerable person from sexual abuse could also fall in this category. Sexual abuse of a girl and a boy is a common concern in care homes and foster homes and even in adopted homes. I know of so called muslim families where vulnerable orphans/girls had to be protected from their uncles so I would not limit my approach to these verses to inheritance only.
I look forward to your valuable contribution
Best regards
farida -
4.4. Wa 'atu nnisaa'a saduqatihinna... This word "saduqa" occurs only in this aya? So it might be useful to know what the difference between this saduqa, which in Yusuf Ali is translated as dower, and the 'ujur in 4.24 and 4.25 that are also translated as dower. (huruf)
Thank you, Sister huruf, for reminding us of the difference between "sadokaat" which appears only in 43 and "ojoor" in all the other verses. It is so important that I couldn?t help getting excited when I read your reminder. I will begin with it.
Yusuf Ali and his likes presume that sadookaat and ojoor are the same because according to them 44 too is about men?s marrying women like the other verses. According to them, 44 is not about marrying the women off.
The translators are so prejudiced (or rather bloked as you once said?) that they contradict themselves so easily. Take for example Muhammad Asad?s translation
And give unto women their marriage portions in the spirit of a gift*; but if they, of their own accord, give up unto you aught thereof, then enjoy it with pleasure and good cheer.
In the footnote he explains
*The expression nihlah signifies the giving of something willingly, without expecting a return for it (Zamakhshari)
See the contradiction? Do men pay the dowers without expecting a return from the women they marry? God?s truth is that bride?s dower, or marriage portion as Asad puts it, is given by the groom, expecting a return for it. He gives it to her so that she will keep house for him and raise him children.
I said God?s truth because God explains it Himself in Al-Baqarah 223 Your wives are your tilth? You make a pay and expect a return for it, which is your tilth.
So sadoqaat can not be dowers.
An Arabic speaker defined nihla like this (Will Samia pleasde tell us whether it is true) Nehl is honeybee. Nehla is a gift similar to the gift of honey that honebees freely provide to others (bears, humans etc.) without expectation of reward.
To sum up, in 44 the women?s sadoqaat are their own possessions.When men marry them off, they hand the possessions over to the women, without expecting a return.
Men have no right to expect a return because they are not giving anything from themselves. However if the women, of their own accord, give up unto you aught thereof, then?
*I will try to answer ImamQuranonly?s questions separately, God willing.
Peace,
Hasan AkcaySalaam brook
Joining this discussion in the middle I would, for now just address some of your arguments here.See the contradiction? Do men pay the dowers without expecting a return from the women they marry? God?s truth is that a bride?s dower, or marriage portion.
If I was to take all arguments as men against women then I would limit my understanding of the above. In terms of matrimonial law I see the marriage portion as a security for women. Women often move from their homes in order to become someone wife and its 99% women who have to cut short their careers.
as Asad puts it, is given by the groom, expecting a return for it. He gives it to her so that she will keep house for him and raise him children
This should not be seen to mean that she will keep house for him or raise him children. It is her house she would be looking after and her children who would benefit from her closeness, guidance and education.
She is not doing her husband any favor; she is doing a great job for her children and sadly many a man(and woman)is so unappreciative of this maternal role that she is provoked to go out and earn and prove that she is in no way less than a man.
This initial education of your child is a most important step in embedding YOUR values in him/her and no one can do this for you as only you know what you value most.I said God?s truth because God explains it Himself in Al-Baqarah 223 Your wives are your tilth? You make a pay and expect a return for it, which is your tilth.
I would expand on the meaning of tilth here as this is an allegorical term I would just take the example of a farmer, who loves his tilth more than other possessions as his livelihood depends on it. He does all he can to give the right nourishment to his tilth and does all in his power to save his tilth from the adverse effect of weather or vermin.
Whether it rains too much or there is a danger of drought the first thing that comes to his mind would be how to protect his tilth. This is how we should see man taking care of his wife as a protector (Maun).Finally So sadoqaat can not be dowers.
I may not be as well versed in Qur?an and Arabic as some on this site, however I have my own way of understanding the Qur?an which has guided me for a number of years.
From what I understand pf the word Sadoqaat the root word here is ?Sidiq? which I understand to mean ?with all the sincerity due? so the sadoqaat are gifts that one gives with sincere love and respect and that is why even the prophet accepted such gifts.Look forward to your response
Best regards,
farida -
As Salaamu Alaika farida,
This is not as black and white as we may think, single mother especially divorcee face lot of problems in those countries and how many Arabs go and marry those mothers in order to take care of the orphans?????
Im not to familiar with what goes on in those arab countries, other than what I hear. So I mainly was speaking about what happens in America. Nevertheless, I think there still is a difference in divorced women with kids and widowed women with kids, and orphans as we know them in America who have no parents at all; including any relatives that will take them in.
Single and divorced women with kids get married everyday here in America. Widows maybe even easier. Orphans that have no mother or father, and go from foster home to foster home or live in orphanages, I don't think get adopted quite often. But Im sure that if they were known to have substantial inheritances, they would be adopted very quickly.
Why not? (Here one mustn?t forget that many men after divorce leave their children with the mother and are free to remarry, whereas Islamically it?s the woman who should enjoy this freedom, but, being a mother the idea of leaving her child is unbearable for her. So this is one way of holding a marriage together.)
Getting back to your point about no orphan involved, I am sorry; here you are taking a very limited approach. Be it America or England you may think that because the state takes care of single women and children so there are no orphans(orphan in other words vulnerable person) Sadly you would find children who are left at the mercy of foster parents and many are waiting to be adopted this includes many Muslim children who are finding it difficult to be housed in a ?Muslim? household as not many are willing to take care of someone else?s child.Sometimes after separation or divorce many women run off with the kids. Many women think the kids BELONG to them since they carried them in their bellies for nine months and gave birth. The kids BELONG to Allah and are a trust given to both the mother and father. So men and women both are guilty many times. Each individual case is different depending on the circumstances and opportunities.
Im not sure where orphans became defined as vulnerable person. Many non-orphaned kids are vulnerable, and likewise many orphaned kids are not vulnerable. Al Quran gives much guidance to taking care of the needy and the poor. These ayaat to me deal with the abuse of the WEALTH of orphans, not the issue of the poor ones; those are covered elsewhere.
Here again IMHO you are thinking of amwaal only in terms of monetary inheritance. I would think that the protection of a vulnerable person from sexual abuse could also fall in this category. Sexual abuse of a girl and a boy is a common concorn in care homes and foster homes and even in adopted homes. I know of so called muslim families where vulnerable orphans/girls had to be protected from their uncles so I would not limit my approach to these verses to inheritance only.
I look forward to your valuable contribution
Best regards
faridaAmwaal as used in the context of the 4th Surah is used only as monetary/property inheritance. You can't give back sexual abuse. So although I understand the problem with sexual abuse, I don't think that it is addressed in those ayaat because all sexual abuse is considered wrong in Al Quran. The only allowable sex in Al Quran is between married spouses.
As well, thank you for your contributions.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
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As Salaamu Alaika farida,
Im not to familiar with what goes on in those arab countries, other than what I hear. So I mainly was speaking about what happens in America. Nevertheless, I think there still is a difference in divorced women with kids and widowed women with kids, and orphans as we know them in America who have no parents at all; including any relatives that will take them in.
Single and divorced women with kids get married everyday here in America. Widows maybe even easier. Orphans that have no mother or father, and go from foster home to foster home or live in orphanages, I don't think get adopted quite often. But Im sure that if they were known to have substantial inheritances, they would be adopted very quickly.
Sometimes after separation or divorce many women run off with the kids. Many women think the kids BELONG to them since they carried them in their bellies for nine months and gave birth. The kids BELONG to Allah and are a trust given to both the mother and father. So men and women both are guilty many times. Each individual case is different depending on the circumstances and opportunities.
Im not sure where orphans became defined as vulnerable person. Many non-orphaned kids are vulnerable, and likewise many orphaned kids are not vulnerable. Al Quran gives much guidance to taking care of the needy and the poor. These ayaat to me deal with the abuse of the WEALTH of orphans, not the issue of the poor ones; those are covered elsewhere.
Amwaal as used in the context of the 4th Surah is used only as monetary/property inheritance. You can't give back sexual abuse. So although I understand the problem with sexual abuse, I don't think that it is addressed in those ayaat because all sexual abuse is considered wrong in Al Quran. The only allowable sex in Al Quran is between married spouses.
As well, thank you for your contributions.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
Wa alaikum Salaam,
First of all let me thank your for correcting me regarding amwaal I overlooked the whole context in this surah.
However I see you have quite a negative view about women? who run away with kids?. I?ve got lots of exposure to messy divorces where I have seen the worst of both sexes.Sometimes after separation or divorce many women run off with the kids
At other times it?s the father who disappears and takes no care of his kids. This is worse than having a father who died, as the thought that ?my father is alive, yet not bothered? is very painful for children their position at times is worst than orphans.Many women think the kids BELONG to them since they carried them in their bellies for nine months and gave birth
It?s true that many women think this way but there are cases where Dad ran away when mother said she wants access to the children (without responsibility), but wants to be free to remarry for her own self instead of looking for a father for her children.
This is a complex situation which is why we are reminded in the Qur?an not to use the children to manipulate the situation as parents when a divorce happens.Orphans that have no mother or father, and go from foster home to foster home or live in orphanages,
There are many, with both their parents, who end up in an orphanage. Sometime these are illegitimate children and at other times their parents are unable to look after them so they are taken into care.
I dont want to take this thread to a different topic, but don?t we need to expand the definition of orphans?
Best regards
farida -
4.4. Wa 'atu nnisaa'a saduqatihinna nihlatan...
The possessive "saduqatihinna" makes me think that this saduqa is something that belongs to them, or something they are entitled to. Then comes the "nihlatan...", which means something is being given free. One explanation that occurs to me and seems to fit in the aya is that what is being said os to give the women their money that their parents left, without taking any wages or commissions for the administration or guardianship or whatever, that is, having done all that graciously, which would make what comes after about the women giving freely, quite logical. This reading fits in the series of ayas dealing with this.
Coming to the 'ujur, I agree that this seems to be something paid as a cosideration for something in return. I do not think that it is for taking care or the home, because it is not specifically something that a woman does or should do because of being a woman, and in fact not so long ago many of the household chores were in the hands of men and besides nobody needs to marry the person that does the household chores. Why should a woman marry the butler or a man the housekeeper. No. they pay them wages with fairness and that is it.
I do not think it is for sex and enjoyment either, thoug I can very well understand that everybody would be ready to pay for that. It doesn't need any commendation. But the reason why I think that the 'ujur are not for that is that, that I know, the woman also has sex and enjoys, so even if it would be fun to pay each other reciprocally, I do not think that is the answer. So what I think is evident that the woman contributes to the man she marries is the possibility of being a father and being part of a human family. The burden of having children biologically imposed to the male is non existent, on the female it is enormous. Even if the female doesn't bear a child or even gets ever pregnant, the possibility and expectation of it by itself from herself, the environment and society, represents for her an allpervading constraint. As to the more punctual fact of pregnancy and birth it varies with every woman, it can be quite bearable on the one end and on the other can mean death, and in between everything can happen and does happen. So there is no balance at all in the respective burdens of the male and the female in reproduction. Among most mammals, the males are on their own, and the offspring remains with the females. A male of the human species becomes a man when he consciously wills to live in a human family an consciouslly assumes his burden on it, taking the duties and responsibilities that balance out the burden on the woman in the production and rearing of the common offspring. The very Generous Qur'an points continuously to the fact that our being constituted in sexes is a source of spiritual improvement if we are well guided, it is a school, and a source of blessings. But it exacts too the conscious assumption of our burdens and duties, which on the other hand will not fail also to bring enormous satisfactions in this life and in sha Allah in the next.
Concerning the "women's liberation" I have said many times, simplifying it a lot, that in fact it wasn't women that had to come to the level of men, but men who had to come to the level of women. Before that there was the double moral, now all are equally inmoral apparently, because it would be politcally incorrect to say that many more males than females are pigs, but anyway, we should not be depressed. In spite of all the brainwashing that we get to become the kings and queens of the planetary pigstay, as it happens, there are very good men and very good women in a world that, as it always has been, is full of temptation. Talking about which and pointing out the difference between males and females, I think that there is a clear explanation why statistically there may be more disolute men than women. For women, being disolute, even with today's means, brings automatic burdens and penalties. For men, apart from disease, but even that to a lesser extent than women, there is no inmediate loss. Men do not have to put in iuds, get abortions, have illegitimate children, get kicked out a jobs because of it... Yes, that is the difference. For men to get derailed brings no inmediate bodily or social prejudice. Therefore it takes more determination to be righteous. But to be good out of necessity is not a marvel either, so conscioussness is necessary for all, and that is why the honest Qur'an says that nobody es better than anybody else except by the consciousness of his, her Creator and Sustainer.
May He bless us all and his universes.
Salaam
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As Salaamu Alaika farida,
I don't have a negative view of women only, I have one of men too. No really, I LOVE WOMEN! yes Can't you tell by my polygynous nature? ! Okay, on a serious note, what I am really saying sister is that wrong is wrong and it goes both ways. I was not defending men, I was pointing out that it happens on both sides; since you mentioned the wrong that men do often. As I said, each situation is different and it's circumstances and opportunities has to be looked at individually. Men and women can be both equally right or equally wrong.
I agree with you about the definition of orphans. It never meant to me only those kids whom their father had died. But this is what many arabs or others on this forum have promoted as the correct understanding as it is used in Al Quran. I haven't agreed with them, but was rather just pointing out what those who have said so, believe.
As Salaamu Alaikum,
Wa alaikum Salaam,
First of all let me thank your for correcting me regarding amwaal I overlooked the whole context in this surah.
However I see you have quite a negative view about women? who run away with kids?. I?ve got lots of exposure to messy divorces where I have seen the worst of both sexes.Sometimes after separation or divorce many women run off with the kids
At other times it?s the father who disappears and takes no care of his kids. This is worse than having a father who died, as the thought that ?my father is alive, yet not bothered? is very painful for children their position at times is worst than orphans.Many women think the kids BELONG to them since they carried them in their bellies for nine months and gave birth
It?s true that many women think this way but there are cases where Dad ran away when mother said she wants access to the children (without responsibility), but wants to be free to remarry for her own self instead of looking for a father for her children.
This is a complex situation which is why we are reminded in the Qur?an not to use the children to manipulate the situation as parents when a divorce happens.Orphans that have no mother or father, and go from foster home to foster home or live in orphanages,
There are many, with both their parents, who end up in an orphanage. Sometime these are illegitimate children and at other times their parents are unable to look after them so they are taken into care.
I dont want to take this thread to a different topic, but don?t we need to expand the definition of orphans?
Best regards
farida -
In terms of matrimonial law I see the marriage portion as a security for women. Women often move from their homes in order to become someone?s wife and it?s 99% women who have to cut short their careers. (farida)
I agree. Women do give up these things, which marriage portion ('ujuur) is supposed to make up for. As a result ?ujuur is, in in huruf?s words, something paid as a cosideration for something in return.
What I understand from your words is that the something in return is women?s keeping men?s houses instead of living in other houses where they were accustomed to living with a feeling of security and raising men?s children instead of carrying on their previous careers. Although they are also women?s houses and women?s children, the rule still stands women do give up things from their lives in order to contribute positive things to men?s lives; so they deserve the dowers in return.
Sadoqaat are different. They are women?s own possessions.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
I do not think it is for sex and enjoyment either, thoug I can very well understand that everybody would be ready to pay for that. It doesn't need any commendation. But the reason why I think that the 'ujur are not for that is that, that I know, the woman also has sex and enjoys, so even if it would be fun to pay each other reciprocally, I do not think that is the answer. So what I think is evident that the woman contributes to the man she marries is the possibility of being a father and being part of a human family. The burden of having children biologically imposed to the male is non existent, on the female it is enormous. Even if the female doesn't bear a child or even gets ever pregnant, the possibility and expectation of it by itself from herself, the environment and society, represents for her an allpervading constraint. As to the more punctual fact of pregnancy and birth it varies with every woman, it can be quite bearable on the one end and on the other can mean death, and in between everything can happen and does happen. So there is no balance at all in the respective burdens of the male and the female in reproduction. Among most mammals, the males are on their own, and the offspring remains with the females. A male of the human species becomes a man when he consciously wills to live in a human family an consciouslly assumes his burden on it, taking the duties and responsibilities that balance out the burden on the woman in the production and rearing of the common offspring. The very Generous Qur'an points continuously to the fact that our being constituted in sexes is a source of spiritual improvement if we are well guided, it is a school, and a source of blessings. But it exacts too the conscious assumption of our burdens and duties, which on the other hand will not fail also to bring enormous satisfactions in this life and in sha Allah in the next.
4-24......if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
5-5 ...... and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
MIN qablikum iza atatumhunna, oo ojurihinna.
The woman's wages, (Mahar) is to be paid before one derives sexual benifit from her, and it has been specifically mentioned that these wages are not for out pouring or legalising fornication, nor should be used as a licence for prostituion. BUt to get the woman in an honest relationship with an aim to maintain chaistity.
siki
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70-29'30 And those who guard their private parts -Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess -- for these surely are not to be blamed.
The conjunction or in this verse is a choice word. It indicates that a believing man is allowed to display the private parts of his body to either his wife or one of his ma malakat aymaan. He has to choose and he has to do do with only one wife, which proves once more that polygyny is forbidden in God's religion.
As for the status of the ma malakat aymaan, they are the legal wives of the men whose oaths possess them. 3350 is proof enough.
In 3350 God says to His messenger, Mohammad We have made legal for you your wives whose dowers you paid and those whom thy oaths have -Innaa ahlalnaa laka azwaajaka'l 'l?tee ?taina ujuur ahunna wa ma malakat yameenuk.
That is, those whom Mohammad's oaths had were legally married with him. The other believing men are also bound by this divine decision (235-6, 7029-30).
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
4-24......if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
5-5 ...... and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
MIN qablikum iza atatumhunna, oo ojurihinna.
The woman's wages, (Mahar) is to be paid before one derives sexual benifit from her, and it has been specifically mentioned that these wages are not for out pouring or legalising fornication, nor should be used as a licence for prostituion. BUt to get the woman in an honest relationship with an aim to maintain chaistity.
siki
siki, I don't get whether you are trying to say something in particular in this message or just laying down the ayas for relfection.
Salaam
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Salaams siki,
I understand how this ayat can seem to indicate to someone that MMA are not married to a man, but my current understanding is leaning towards the MMA as being one whom a man has married but wasn't able to provide a normal dower for because of his lack of finances and the MMA's own personal financial situation being poor. Therefore a man can't have more than one MMA in order to not be unjust; which is why it is "ONE AW MMA". I hope to add to or correct my understanding soon on this issue, Allah willing.
As Salaamu Alaikum,
Correction,
70-29'30 And those who guard their private parts -Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess -- for these surely are not to be blamed,
siki
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960 "The sadaqaat are but for the poor and the needy, and those who are employed to for them". The verse here does not mention women or wives. I think hat , again, nisaa' in verse 44 is NOT women, but those vulnerable people the poor and the needy.
Im just curious, is there anyone else in this forum that believes "nisaa" doesn't mean women, but instead means "those vulnerable people, the poor and the needy"? hmm Please respond if you believe this also.
And Samia, how do you reconcile "nisaa" in 4127? Is it "those vulnerable, poor and needy MOTHERS of ORPHANS"? Is 4127 referring back to 43 to you? Are the orphans in 43 also poor and needy to you?
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
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Im just curious, is there anyone else in this forum that believes "nisaa" doesn't mean women, but instead means "those vulnerable people, the poor and the needy"? hmm Please respond if you believe this also.
I had never thought of it till I read Samia, for the first time on 4.34, as to the exact meaning you quote, I don't know, but I think there is something to it. I still do not know what, I am studying it and probably will take me a long time, but I certainly will not dismiss it if I am not satisfied that there is nothing to it.
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Im just curious, is there anyone else in this forum that believes "nisaa" doesn't mean women, but instead means "those vulnerable people, the poor and the needy"? hmm Please respond if you believe this also.
And Samia, how do you reconcile "nisaa" in 4127? Is it "those vulnerable, poor and needy MOTHERS of ORPHANS"? Is 4127 referring back to 43 to you? Are the orphans in 43 also poor and needy to you?
As Salaamu Alaikum,
Salaam IQO
Other people came up wiht this meaning. It's ANOTHER meaning, not the only one. But I would also think that this is the original meaning, and women is secondary, just like rijaal.
As I metioned, I read a book explaining verse 434 with this meaning. Dr Sha7rour in an article on verse 434 referred to this meaning and adopted it, although he did not have this meaning in his book (published years before) when he dealt with this verse. One day I will translate his article. I am not sure about this forum.
First of all I would like to point out that since "nisaa'" is not the natural plural of imra'a, and since its root exists as an independent word with its natural plural as nisaa', and since we find the derivatives of this word in usage of the qur'aan, I do not see why I should not consider this meaning, especially that "rijaal" is used in the qur'aan to cover both genders and not to mean (men). In fact "rijaal" is not used at all as "men" (not counting 434).
And Samia, how do you reconcile "nisaa" in 4127?
Secondly, verse 4127 is the most explicit verse for the meaning of "nisaa'" as the vulnerable. It even classifies the "nisaa'". Why do you think people ask the prophet of "nisaa'", and that God refers him (i.e the prophet) to Him and to the law, and then He classifies the widows with children, the orphans and the vulnerable children, all under the question about nisaa'? Isn't this clear that "nisaa'" covers all these? It's this verse that made me more sure that the qur'aan used both meanings of the word. And it's the verse that made me believe that this chapter is about (the vulnerable) not (the women).
Moeover, it is these kinds of debates that make me study the word "nisaa'" and cross-reference the meaning of nisaa'. I read all the posts in ths thread on verse 44, and there was always something missing. The qur'aan never mentioned any other "money" to be paid to "wives" beside the dowry ; but it mentioned the "sadaqaat" many times, each time as gift or donation to those who are in need. Here we have this "sadaqa" as a donation too. Verse 960 is very clear as to whom the sadaqa should be paid.
Is it "those vulnerable, poor and needy MOTHERS of ORPHANS? Is 4127 referring back to 43 to you?
The women in verse 127 do not necessarily refer to those mentioned in verse 43. One can marry a widow as his sole wife and verse 127 may address this person.
Are the orphans in 43 also poor and needy to you?
As for verse 43, I tried to think of Hasan's understanding, but I found many flows which you addressed in your reply to him. So far, I am sticking to my understanding as widows whose kids are poor (and they are poor too) until I read/find a better understanding that also has no flows.
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Salaam IQO
Wa Salaam Samia,
Other people came up wiht this meaning. It's ANOTHER meaning, not the only one. But I would also think that this is the original meaning, and women is secondary, just like rijaal.
All words have other meanings that are included with the meaning used in the context. If "nisaa" is understood to be "women", there is nothing that says that these women are not also classified as "vunerable". It makes perfect sense to address these issues because the women are exactly vunerable.
So until otherwise proven, I still think women is the primary meaning and "vunerable" can be a secondary meaning. Context is everything in any language.
As I metioned, I read a book explaining verse 434 with this meaning. Dr Sha7rour in an article on verse 434 referred to this meaning and adopted it, although he did not have this meaning in his book (published years before) when he dealt with this verse. One day I will translate his article. I am not sure about this forum.
Why would you not want to translate his article and post it on this forum?
First of all I would like to point out that since "nisaa'" is not the natural plural of imra'a, and since its root exists as an independent word with its natural plural as nisaa', and since we find the derivatives of this word in usage of the qur'aan, I do not see why I should not consider this meaning, especially that "rijaal" is used in the qur'aan to cover both genders and not to mean (men).
If you don't mind, can you find the time to post the detailed evidence for all of your statements/conclusions that you have made here?
...In fact "rijaal" is not used at all as "men" (not counting 434).
Can you then tell me what "rijall" (or it's derivative) means (if it is not "MAN/MEN" in the following ayaat
2228, 2282, 41, 47, 412, 432, 475, 498, 4176, 69, 781, 2325, 2338, 2755, 2929, (there are more, but these should be sufficient.)
....Secondly, verse 4127 is the most explicit verse for the meaning of "nisaa'" as the vulnerable. It even classifies the "nisaa'". Why do you think people ask the prophet of "nisaa'", and that God refers him (i.e the prophet) to Him and to the law, and then He classifies the widows with children, the orphans and the vulnerable children, all under the question about nisaa'? Isn't this clear that "nisaa'" covers all these? It's this verse that made me more sure that the qur'aan used both meanings of the word. And it's the verse that made me believe that this chapter is about (the vulnerable) not (the women).
According to you, doesn't orphans and vulnerable children all have to do with "women"; whether widowed, divorced, single or have not reached maturity yet? How can the ayaat not be about the women? If you say the Sura and ayaat are about vunerable women, that still includes women. But if you say that "nisaa" doesn't mean women, then that excludes women.
Moeover, it is these kinds of debates that make me study the word "nisaa'" and cross-reference the meaning of nisaa'. I read all the posts in ths thread on verse 44, and there was always something missing. The qur'aan never mentioned any other "money" to be paid to "wives" beside the dowry ; but it mentioned the "sadaqaat" many times, each time as gift or donation to those who are in need. Here we have this "sadaqa" as a donation too. Verse 960 is very clear as to whom the sadaqa should be paid.
Many, if not most men, not only give a dowry to prospective wives, but they give them "gifts" of charity as well. So why couldn't ayat 44 be considered exemplifying that?
....The women in verse 127 do not necessarily refer to those mentioned in verse 43. One can marry a widow as his sole wife and verse 127 may address this person.As for verse 43, I tried to think of Hasan's understanding, but I found many flows which you addressed in your reply to him. So far, I am sticking to my understanding as widows whose kids are poor (and they are poor too) until I read/find a better understanding that also has no flows.
If the women (whom you just recently said were not women, but the "vunerable" in 4127 don't refer to those in 43, then where in Al Quran is Allah referring us to when He says that He has already instructed us concerning them?
Is verse 4127 addressing all widows, or just widows with orphaned children?
Which ayaat again do you say make clear to us that the widows and their orphans are poor? (42 and 46 make clear that those orphans referenced there have "amwaal" and thus can not be poor).
As Salaamu Alaikum, )