Support the mistress as well as the wife
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What I meant to say was that God neither backtracks or breaks his own law (there's a verse on that somewhere)
Reference, please?
The sleeper of the caves story is pretty much against "God's law"(chapter 1.
And as Sharp001 mentioned, 2259, among others.
We have to translate the words accurately. We can't make reality fit into the quran. The quran should do that on it's own. Not accusing you of that, however.
peace
Sorry to be offtopic, but I believe it's relevant to the discussion at hand.
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AaRon so its Poor Lord Archer ?he was milked??he was not a participant just poor man and this yuk woman blew the whistle on this brilliant writer who managed to sell his books from jail and is still doing very well in this monogamous society?
i never said poor lord archer in any of my posts, did i? are you such an extremist that if someone says something to one degree of a position that you automatically infer that they must be in favour of some distant end of a spectrum?
i'll thank you to not put words in my mouth
neither of them are victims, but i don't have respect for people who participate at one point and then drop the dime on someone later... we have a word for that, it's called a rat
but i can see from your posts to myself and others, and i reiterate, that you are very extreme in your assumptions
before you shoot your mouth off make sure your brains are loaded
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You're right. But polyandry is forbidden elsewhere . Simple. The problem here, as I said, would be the interpretation of the other groups. References to slavery? Orphans?
Surprisingly, polyandry is not forbidden with a clear commandment (though you may deduce this indirectly) Specially in 4-24 , it is an erroneous translation/interpretation by most of the translators.
siki
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Salaam all,
May be we may continue debating the poligamy question as per the Qur'an in the other thread, and continue in this one with the situation as it is and could be getting some real data on countries societies and workable satistics. May be the United Nations population funds and other organisations has a site from which to get such statistics, apart from many other sources.
Salaam all
Salaam alaikum
Alhumdulliah ..Yet another day to reflect,
Beleive me I am not at all angry with anyone who is participating in this thread I just wanted Bro Shap001 to understand that I am only taking about what goes on in real word.
Huruf, there is no chance of collecting statistics in the near future so let?s look around for some real evidence ? I have a friend, who works at Dior perfume counter and she tells me how several of her customers buy perfumes for their mistresses. There is this regular customer at her store ( an Englishman), who always buys two sets of exactly the same Dior goods from her and if she does not have a pair of the same he doesn?t buy. Yesterday he spent ?421 on trinkets for his two ladies.
Can you see how he is trying to be fair to both, except that only one is called his wife and the other one will always be the other woman (unless he?s secretly married to both which would then emerge at his death).Best of regards
farida -
Salam,
Just wanted to clear up, originally the question about marriage was asked of br. Sharp001. However maybe it's not bad at all to get both your guys input on this. and to answer you question sis. Farida, yes, I am married and this january will make it 7 years.
edited to add question.
peace...
peaceSalaam brother Medhi,
It?s good to know that, Alhumdulillah you are married. Since you know the reality of marriage I do not need to discuss it with you. Every marriage is different and makes its individual demands on the couple involved. What works for one does not necessarily mean it works for others. Haven?t you noticed how sometimes you look at a couple and wonder; how can they put up with each other.
I understand you wanted me to respond to this
What needs does a marriage in general satisfy?.As I see it there is a difference between needs and wants; a good marriage would satisfy most needs, whereas a bad marriage will not satisfy even the basic needs but sometimes the basic needs are satisfied but it?s the demands (want) which may make it a failure.
A good husband knows what to do and so does a good wife and since you are happily married I?m sure you don?t expect me to tell you what is needed in a satisfactory relationship.
However do not expect all your needs to be fulfilled in a marriage; there will always be something missing like one spouse snoring away when the other is trying to sleep; brickwall my poor husband (sleep IS a basic need)It?s all about perception and reality, make the most of each other?s company and give as much as you can, As ?in giving you receive?. peace
Best regards
Farida -
i never said poor lord archer in any of my posts, did i? are you such an extremist that if someone says something to one degree of a position that you automatically infer that they must be in favour of some distant end of a spectrum?
i'll thank you to not put words in my mouth
neither of them are victims, but i don't have respect for people who participate at one point and then drop the dime on someone later... we have a word for that, it's called a rat
but i can see from your posts to myself and others, and i reiterate, that you are very extreme in your assumptions
before you shoot your mouth off make sure your brains are loaded
Peace AaRon
I only asked you a question? ,
You may not have respect for any of the people involved in that triangle nor am I asking you to respect them, I am exposing here, what goes on in a real monogamous world...that's all
Calm down, there is no need to be disrespectable and judgemental ... Ok....handshake
Please understand I am no extremist, I believe in taking middle ground and be just even if involves someone like Ms Symonds
Best regards
Farida -
So, let me get this straight. As understood it, we were initially made from "a self/nafs and its partner" from which we (mankind) came (I assume that it took a substantial amount of years). Along the way, many have reproduced and died and here we stand as of today.
So what you are asserting for the "Period of Judgement/Resurrection" is that before that period, everyone will die and they will be judged as they are born and they are about the die "again" but before dieing they will reproduce so that we can come into existence again, so that we can be judged.
If I gotten this wrong somehow, can you please explain or point me out to a thread where your understanding of the said phenomenon is discussed.
Peace.
Reference, please?
The sleeper of the caves story is pretty much against "God's law"(chapter 1.
And as Sharp001 mentioned, 2259, among others.
We have to translate the words accurately. We can't make reality fit into the quran. The quran should do that on it's own. Not accusing you of that, however.peace
Sorry to be offtopic, but I believe it's relevant to the discussion at hand.
The verse - verses!
Who runs that site, by the way? As for how anything will happen after our deaths, who knows? The quran only says it'll happen and states that it won't violate any laws of God, that's all I need to know, and that's all that needs to be known.
Surprisingly, polyandry is not forbidden with a clear commandment (though you may deduce this indirectly) Specially in 4-24 , it is an erroneous translation/interpretation by most of the translators.
siki
Can you explain? How is polyandry practical, even?
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How is polyandry practical, even?
OPF,
Warning I am not advocating polyandry. I am just answering this particular part of your post because in fact I think there is an actual problem that will get worse and which is being answered precisely with polyandry
I think it was posted in free-minds forums, but I am not too sure. It is the selective abortion of female embryos in India and in China. Concerning India I read that now people bon at the time when the selective abortions became common have now reached marriable age. But, as ti was to be expected, there are no eligible women for all, so some look for hind wives in Bangladesh, others perpetrate a sneaky kind of polyandry, where one brother finds a wife, and once they are married she finds out the man brought a borther co-husband as a bonus. The article didn't say whether there were sudden deaths of newly dead wives on the shock of finding the bonus or not. I for one would have died or at least run away and not have stopped till the next galaxy at least.
Be it as it may, it is really not funny, but it is real, and it will become still more real. I suppose nobody wants polyandry, and I am most certainly not recommending it, but has anybody any idea as to how to face this catastrophe? And I am not so worried about the sexual urge of men, that would be the simplest of all. I mean the whole human situation.
Salaam
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The verse - verses!
Who runs that site, by the way?Peace Br. OPF,
The verses quoted by you are as follows (All literal translations)
1064 - "For them the good news in the life the present/the worldly life and in the end (other life), (there is) no exchange/replacement/substitution to God's words/expressions, that it is the winning/triumph, the great."
634 - "And messengers from before you had been lied to/denied, so they were patient on what they were denied (rejected) and they were harmed mildly, until Our victory/aid came to them, and (there is) no exchanger to God's words/expressions; and from the messengers' information/news had come to you."
6115 - "And your Lord's word/expression (was/is) completed truthfully and justly/equitably, (there is) no exchanger/replacer to His words/expressions, and He is the hearing/listening, the knowledgeable."
1827 - "And read/recite what was inspired/transmitted to you from your Lord's Book , (there is) no exchanger/replacer/substitutor to His words/expressions, and you will never/not find from other than Him a shelter/refuge."
The above verses talk about His words/expressions. They either relate to the Book or to His promise. To interpret it as anything else is no more than an opinion. Let's see the other verses
3030 - "So keep up your face/front to the religion, (as) a submitter/Moslem/Unifier of God , God's nature/manner/religion which He created/originated the people on it, (there is) no replacement/substitution to God's creation, that (is) the religion the straight/valuable, and but most of the people do not know.
It can be seen that God had created all mankind on His nature and there can be no change is that creation nor in manner thereof. Further, if it meant to be all-inclusive, it could have said, "all(Kul) creation" or "creations".
3360 - "If (E) the hypocrites and those whom in their hearts/minds (is) sickness/disease and the spreaders of agitating rumors and bad news to provoke people in the city/town do not end/stop, We will urge/attract (influence) you (to get rid of) with them, then they do not become a neighbor to you in it except a few ."
3361 - "Cursed/humiliated wherever they were defeated/caught up with, they were taken/punished, and they were killed killingly."
3362 - "(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah."We can see what was the unchanging practice that the Book is talking about considering all the contextual verses, i.e. the hypocrites, those with sickness in their hearts and the rumor-mongers, they are cursed in that they will always be caught up, punished and killed.
3542 - "And they swore/made oath by God their rights'/oath's utmost if (E) a warner/giver of notice came to them they will be/become more guided than any (of) the nations, so when a warner/giver of notice came to them, did not (nothing) increased them except hastening away with aversion."
3543 - "Arrogance in the earth/Planet Earth, and the bad's/evil's/harm's deceit/scheme, does not surround/afflict except with its people, so do they wait (for) the first's/beginner's manner/law ? So you will never/not find for God's law/manner (an) exchange/replacement, and you will never/not find for God's law/manner a change/movement."We can see which one of God's law/manner the Book is referring to when all the contextual verses are read as they are supposed to be read, i.e. there will be no change in the fact that the evil schemes of the evil-doers will afflict only those who concoct them.
4820 - "God promised you many winnings/spoils of war, you take/receive it, so He hurried/hastened for you this, and He prevented/stopped the peoples' hands from you, and for it to be an evidence/sign to the believers, and He guides you (to) a straight/direct way/path."
4821 - "And another you did not become capable/overpowering on it, God had taken care of/surrounded with it, and God was/is on each thing capable/able."
4822 - "And if those who disbelieved fought you, they would have turned away (on) the backs/ends, then they do no find a guardian/ally, and nor a victorior/savior."
4823 - "God's law/manner which had past/expired from before, and you will never/not find for God's law/manner an exchange/replacement."We can see which one of God's law/manner the Book is referring to when all the contextual verses are read as they are supposed to be read, i.e. there will be no change in the fact that if the disbelievers fought you, they would find no guardian/ally and a saviour and will turn away on their backs.
Now, I AM interested... Who runs that site, anyway? And why did you take that information on its face value and not verify its claims?
As for how anything will happen after our deaths, who knows? The quran only says it'll happen and states that it won't violate any laws of God, that's all I need to know, and that's all that needs to be known.
I am a little uncomfortable with that. For Abraham, you said that he died a long time ago. Since we did not see or verify the Book's verses, so the burden to prove anything "supernatural" is on us. For what will happen after our deaths, you claim to say that the Book says it will happen and that is all you need to know, without touching on the fact that there are more than a few verses which detail the events surrounding that phenomenon and how you established that it won't violate the laws of God (if it was based on the verses discussed above, then, pardon me if I am less than convinced). YET, you still are dead sure of the mechanics of evolution, which we haven't seen or verified with absolute certainty, and only theorised upto this point in time. I'd say that the burden of proof of evolution is on you. Going by your logic, I believe what the Book says about the creation of mankind, i.e. created you from a self/nafs and from it, its mate. Nothing more, nothing less. No extrapolations or theories of equating that "self/nafs" to a single cell organism evolving into present day humans and animals, etc. etc. Because none of that is mentioned in the Book. If any of it is so mentioned, I am very interested to know, so kindly please point the pertinent verses out to me.
Pardon me for being skeptical, but I am afraid to attribute anything to God which I am not sure of.
Peace
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Peace All,
Having followed this thread with some interest, seeing many Yuks and Boos, I conclude that many of us have rather a judgmental attitude nope (none mentioned none forgotten). This is perhaps a sign of youth (or immaturity); one tends to think one knows it all; only as one matures does one realise how little indeed one knows(hopefully a sign of emerging wisdom).
We need to remember that it's not our prerogative to judge, but that of God and God Alone. Our sense of morality should certainly lead us to condemn the sin (of f.i. adultery), but IMHO, realising that we're all human and liable to sin, we should not condemn the sinner.
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Peace,
1064, 3030, 3362, 3543, 4823, 634, 6115, 1827]
Grossly taken out of context. Please study the context of the verses.
As for how anything will happen after our deaths, who knows? The quran only says it'll happen and states that it won't violate any laws of God, that's all I need to know, and that's all that needs to be known.
Still awaiting evidence
From Tanveer
Allah's sunnah is applicable to only certain situations such as destruction of the evil doers, backfiring of the evil schemes on the evil schemers etc. and does not change in those situations and DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL COSMIC LAWS.
Pardon me for being skeptical, but I am afraid to attribute anything to God which I am not sure of.
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Peace,
Grossly taken out of context. Please study the context of the verses.Still awaiting evidence
From Tanveer
There is no taking anything out of context here. That has been addressed here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16078.0
Please apply reasoning. Why, why does an omnipotent God need to backtrack? Who is the more powerful God, one that says "Be" and it is or one that says "Be", then "Oops, not like that" then "A little to the left...", "Doh!", "Be!", etc, etc, etc.
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Salaam alaikum Elke,
Please I did not judge you at all I merely replied to you thread. Now that I know more about you I would say how could you be in her shoes? You?re a woman who has been given rights by Allah(swt) to demand her status and not to allow anyone to use you as mistress.
None has right to take a woman as his mistress, because Allah swt has given equal status to all women. You say that you could have been in her shoes, which goes to show the dilemma of a single woman. Your strength comes from your faith & guidance, whereas women like MS Symonds, do not have that guidance. They are under the illusion that they have equal rights.However why you?re not yukking at the man involved here, is due to living in a culture where only men are allowed to behave badly?
Peace farida,
its not that i have not understood the purpose of this thread, but i believe we do not speak the same language at all.
I'm not under the illusion that i have equal rights (even less so in this country where even the law is not yet acceptable, not to speak of the mentalities) but i believe in equality and i fight for it everyday. And i said i yuck on them all, which means the man too...salaams,
lk -
Tell me about it, I am so bewildered about this attitude of some women, including Ms Symonds, who could well live an independent life, yet they continue to humiliate themselves and, in some cases tolerate abuse in the form of domestic violence.
Finally we may not that far apart sis...
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Peace farida,
its not that i have not understood the purpose of this thread, but i believe we do not speak the same language at all.
salaams,
lkSalaam sister Elke,
Before I answer I?d like to tell you that I do not pass judgement on anyone on this forum; I only have my opinion. Since we do not know each other enough, our opinions are simply based on our limited knowledge through these threads, which could be wrong or right.
I believe that Allah swt has awarded equal rights to men and women and that, in the case of polygyny a woman has the right to get a divorce if she is not happy with the idea of sharing her husband. At least she has that choice.
You say...
I'm not under the illusion that i have equal rights (even less so in this country where even the law is not yet acceptable, not to speak of the mentalities)
Sis you are talking about a country I am only taking about the system ordained by our Creator.but i believe in equality and i fight for it everyday. And i said i yuck on them all, which means the man too...
Unlike you I believe that Allah swt has not given us the right to pass judgement on any one. All we can say is that the acts of such and such are good or bad, but ultimately it is for God to judge who deserves to be yukked at.
Therefore you are right in saying ?we do not speak the same language at all?....Finally I reiterate that I don?t find polygyny unfair to women as you are not allowed to inherit women by force.
In fact it stops men from secretly deceiving their wives and abusing other women behind the shield of monogamy. The woman like Ms Symonds too has choice to give her consent if she wants to become another wife but where Monogamy rules there is no option but to choose one as wife, and the other as the other woman.A woman is not allowed several husbands as it is everybody?s right to know its parents. You must have heard of adopted children who much as they are loved by their adopted parents, still want to know their biological parents. Therefore if a woman was to sleep with more than one man it is not possible to establish who the father is, until recently with DNA testing.
Having said that I wonder if I could be gracious enough to tolerate polygyny? An emergency situation, where lots of women need a home and protection, will be the test of my belief.
Best wishes
farida -
Peace farida
and also G OmarUnlike you I believe that Allah swt has not given us the right to pass judgement on any one.
sure only the God finally judges, but by judging their action you judge the people. even knowing that people can change. don't play ostrich, we all judge and evaluate each other all the time and are judged at the same time. see you just judged me above, thinking that i believe that i have the right to pass judgment...
i guess my reaction was du to the personal revivication of past pains...and even if i "yucked" on my ex-hubby enough to leave him, i'm still his friend and co-parent. i can be much cooler and un-judging about things i have not lived yet... just to put things into perspective. i better leave this thread alone, may be am too much involved and lose my objectivity
lk
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Peace farida
and also G Omarsure only the God finally judges, but by judging their action you judge the people. even knowing that people can change. don't play ostrich, we all judge and evaluate each other all the time and are judged at the same time. see you just judged me above, thinking that i believe that i have the right to pass judgment...
i guess my reaction was du to the personal revivication of past pains...and even if i "yucked" on my ex-hubby enough to leave him, i'm still his friend and co-parent. i can be much cooler and un-judging about things i have not lived yet... just to put things into perspective. i better leave this thread alone, may be am too much involved and lose my objectivity
lk
Salaam sister Elke,
Thank you for correcting me; even though I make every effort not to condemn anyone as good or bad I may have fallen into the trap of passing judgement.
Elke I understand your pain even though I can not feel it the same as you. We all have our individual, painful experiences, which often leave such a bad taste in ones mouth that one becomes biased in ones judgment. We are asked only to stand as witness in justice that?s all, so if any one does wrong we are to point it out, even if it is against our own self (nafs).
Please continue to express yourself, even if not in this thread but on the whole. My policy is not to take any thread as aimed at me; otherwise I would be limiting it. People have called me extremist etc but I did not get offended as no one out there on the forum knows me well enough to conclude that. These threads are mainly there to address common issues.
Many on this forum like to ?force? their opinion on others and take it as a matter of pride, not to admit being wrong. In that process they sometimes try to ?mould oil in their palms? (an old saying). They are the ones, who make fools of themselves.
Lots of love your children and best of regards
farida -
Salam all,
Br. Sharp001,
I think I have answered that question in one of my posts above. The extract is
"...love, devotion, dediction, affection, friendship and mercy between them (These attributes also confirmed by the Book, verse 3021).... (feeling of) comfort, protection, fulfilment of the sexual needs ... extension of lineage."Please excuse me that I missed it. My apologies...
peace be on you. peaceSis Farida,
As I see it there is a difference between needs and wants; a good marriage would satisfy most needs, whereas a bad marriage will not satisfy even the basic needs but sometimes the basic needs are satisfied but it?s the demands (want) which may make it a failure.
A good husband knows what to do and so does a good wife and since you are happily married I?m sure you don?t expect me to tell you what is needed in a satisfactory relationship.
However do not expect all your needs to be fulfilled in a marriage; there will always be something missing like one spouse snoring away when the other is trying to sleep; brickwall my poor husband (sleep IS a basic need)It?s all about perception and reality, make the most of each other?s company and give as much as you can, As ?in giving you receive?. peace
Well said! I agree with you on all points.. except maybe , " since you are happily married I?m sure you don?t expect me to tell you what is needed in a satisfactory relationship." Yes, I am happily married, thanks be to Allah, yet it's always good to hear and understand various view points.
peace be on you. peace