Face cover: God's only flaw?
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Greetings Wakas,
Thanks. handshake
But even safety pins wouldn't help that much. I know from experience that it still is quite awkward if you have any degree of flesh showing that needs covering. The headscarf used to compensate for a blouse that has either a low cut neckline or in some other way exposes too much skin, never stays properly in the ideal place for maximum coverage and you will always end up finding yourself over-exposed.
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peace ILisa, all,
(edited post)
I originally thought if you lowered a head cover to cover your chest (but still covering the head) the result wouldn't be great, i.e. it would still be semi-loose, but after thinking about it, it could be done with one fastener / safety-pin / etc and would probably do. Like a headband for the head cover part (like the male Arabs wear now) and pulling either side of the cloth around the front, overlaping, and one fastener / rope / safety-pin / etc.
And before anyone says anything, I'm not saying there is a head cover or there isn't, I'm simply discussing the possibilities.
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Ilisa
Greetings Wakas,
Thanks.
But even safety pins wouldn't help that much. I know from experience that it still is quite awkward if you have any degree of flesh showing that needs covering. The headscarf used to compensate for a blouse that has either a low cut neckline or in some other way exposes too much skin, never stays properly in the ideal place for maximum coverage and you will always end up finding yourself over-exposed.
Half Mullah is always dangerous.
Dear Ilisa it is understood that we all wear some cloths so did the adresssee of Quran at that time, and over those cloths we are told to expand the head scarf, in order to cover the Bossoms because they were and are the attractive parts for most of the opposite sex. What you are assuming is that breasts are naked and that is not the case.Say to the believing men that they should guard their gaze and cover their private parts. This is purer for them. And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should guard their gaze and cover their private parts; that they should not display their ornaments except what appear thereof; that they should draw their head covering over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands? fathers, their sons, their husbands? sons, their brothers or their brothers? sons, or their sisters? sons or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments (Bossoms). And O you who believe turn you all together towards Allah that you may succeed. (2430-31) "
Now let us see what HAdith says, amazingly you can find a HAdith in support only in Abu Daud
'Aisha said Asthma', daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said O Asthma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of the body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands.
Even in this Hadith no covering of Hands and Face. Then Abu Dawud said This is a mursal tradition meaning this is a weak Hadith.
the words used by the Qur?an are such that one is inclined towards believing that the Qur?an wants Muslim women to cover their heads when they have to interact with men and the logical reason for this is as said by Learner
The Words "They should spread their head coverings over their bosoms", in my opinion, imply that the piece of cloth used as head coverings should be spread over the bosom while keeping the head covered. If the Qur?an wanted women to cover only their bosoms with a piece of cloth, I think it would then have been more appropriate to give the directive without any reference to the head coverings. It seems that Arab women used to cover their heads with a long piece of cloth let the sides of that cloth hang behind them. What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging.The Reason I said while replying to IQO that the history and culture are very important for understanding books like Quran.
The reference to the dress of the Arab women is concerned here, the Arab women was the first addressee of the Qur?an, and the Qur?an gave its directives regarding women?s covering keeping her in perspective, it is therefore essential to know what was the dressing of the Arab women, in general. This does not mean that the style of dress worn by the Arab woman is an Islamic standard, but that the coverings of the Arab woman are the perspective in which the Qur?an has given its directive. This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".So do you understand dear Ilisa.
I don't see any benefit to Allah if the women is dressed modestly, or Men keep their gaze low, offcourse like all other laws it is for the betterment of society, and if the society you live in have some other laws as long as within framework of Quran, you may observe it. For example the Quran here is talking about slaves in this very verse, is slavery existing today? near to Zero the kind of it was at that time, so this word is useless at this time of point, but was very important at that point of time, simialarly we should understand that Quran was addressing to some living people who had a Culture, customs and history which is quite different from know.
I mean to say the main idea for the dress should be from Quran; it should be modest; but the details should be decided by the culture and environment of the place living in. In India many Hindu women cover their Bossoms by a cloth called "Dopata" at the same time using it as head covering.
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Ilisa
Half Mullah is always dangerous.Just because I made an observational comment, based on my previous experience you feel comfortable calling me a 'Half Mullah'?? I thought this was a forum for discussion, not fatwas.
What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging.
This is one interpretation.
it is therefore essential to know what was the dressing of the Arab women, in general.
This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".
Interesting for someone who's just called me a 'half mullah' to put a meaning altering phrase in parathases as you have done here for a passage from the Qur'an.
So do you understand dear Ilisa.
Perhaps more than you shall ever know....
In India many Hindu women cover their Bossoms by a cloth called "Dopata" at the same time using it as head covering.
Don't they cover their heads with a cloth that is first wrapped around their bodies instead of the other way around?? That makes a big difference in terms of coverage-ability.
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The qur'an plain and simple doesn't tell anybody to cover his or her head or arms. Many men pretend that it does. Well they are pretenders. There is not such a command in the qur'an. And there is no command that women should wear khumur. It tells to those who wore them to draw them over their breasts.
Those who are fond of inventing, may have as many field days as they please, but they are inventing and attributing things to God of which they presume and on which they elaborate but which are no there.
NO COMMAND TO COVER HEAD NOWHERE INT HE QUR'AN. Peoples suppositions are not binding on anybody.
Salaam
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Just because I made an observational comment, based on my previous experience you feel comfortable calling me a 'Half Mullah'?? I thought this was a forum for discussion, not fatwas.
I did not call you half Mullah! Guilty concious (
Quote
This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".Interesting for someone who's just called me a 'half mullah' to put a meaning altering phrase in parathases as you have done here for a passage from the Qur'an.
I did not call you Half Mullah!
You can read the translation selected by me above, which does not have any paranthases added, the one you quoted is just an observation according to one's understanding.Don't they cover their heads with a cloth that is first wrapped around their bodies instead of the other way around?? That makes a big difference in terms of coverage-ability.
You are talking about "Sarhi" and I about "Dopata" they are different.
Huruf
NO COMMAND TO COVER HEAD NOWHERE INT HE QUR'AN. Peoples suppositions are not binding on anybody
.It is easy to talk big dear, translate the verse but before that ask some one who knows arabic well, may be Wakas.
or otherwise we will arrive at ground zero what is the meaning of "Khimar"? as IQO is asking since beginning. -
What do you know what I know? Who are you to judge? When I say something with certainty, I say it because I know it to my satisfaction. If you want to hear something else, then go yourself to whoever you please. I say what I have said because I am certain of it. If you are certain of what you say, then that is good enough for you, great, practice it and enjoy it, I wish you all the best. But you see, I don't like speculation and picking hints here and there and then coming up with something invented. So as far as I am concerned your certainties are not convincing, I am sorry to say. If there was a command in the qur'an to cover the head we could never deny it and we would not be dicussing about it. We do not deny there is a command not to eat pork, not to go about unddressed, and not to commit adultery. ?Have you seen anybody deny that? But there is not command to cover the head. Many men would like that there should be such a command and they strive hard to for it. But the Qur'an was revealed many hundreds of years ago and it didn't bring such command. Why it is so important for some people that there should be such thing beats me. However, even realising how much its lack makes some people suffer, the QUR'AN DOES NOT ORDER WOMEN TO COVER THEIR HEAD. And nobody has quoted such a thing, and a few more millions of pages speculating on the history of apparel and fashion won't make appear in the Qur'an such a comand. That people should go to such ridiculous extremes to have their whim on this is part of what makes people feel repelled by anything about the Qur'an and the Truth, because they come thinking of truth and they get an unending shower of superficialities and ridiculous nonsense, which indeed is nto in the Qur'an but the warped minds of those who give their own fantasies on it instead of reflecting and accepting.
So do you want me to go and ask? Why? do you think that this has not been already answered thousands of times by the best "scholars" to most people utter disatisfaction? It did satisfy you? Magnificent. So we are both happy. If there was reincarnation, it would be great. You could again be born a woman and cover your head almost all the time, which is so miraculous.
Salaam
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That's because men being pervs is the woman's fault! >D
We need to hide them, so us men won't be seduced !
Salaam
If that is the case then how come in almost all muslim countries where many women go around covering from head to toe, men are most perverted and stare at any women shamelessly even if she is covered up. They are too hungry for women and, completely oblivious of the commandment to lower your gaze show no respect.
One gets the feelings that they have Xray eyes, undressing the women. All I see is hypocrisy in practice, had I seen respect for women due to ?Hijab? I would have give the idea some consideration, even if its not strictly a commandment.Best regards
farida -
I did not call you half Mullah! Guilty concious (
I did not call you Half Mullah!
Then please enlighten me as to your intent behind writing those words after directly addressing me. And why would I, of all people have a guilty conscious in terms of 'half mullah'? Spare me!
You are talking about "Sarhi" and I about "Dopata" they are different.
Sorry, I'm not from the subcontinent. Here's the wiki link with photos
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupatta
Okay, I agree, it is big enough to pull over your chest. But HOT to wear!!!!
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And there is no command that women should wear khumur. It tells to those who wore them to draw them over their breasts.
Exactly! No command for women in general to wear khimaar. BUT, the believing women, as you have so elloquently pointed out in bold above, those that wore them are told to SPREAD, or draw if you like, them over their chest area (cleavage, shape), not breasts; because the breasts were not bare to begin with...unlike the barbarian naked circumblating society that you and samia seem to have in mind.
What's your trip anyway? Are you a woman in disguise and have been oppressed by "khimaar" in your home country by someone like the taliban? No one is forcing anyone to accept or wear anything here on this forum. It's just a discussion about the meaning of the ayat. Why are you underwear so uptight? hmm
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Salaams Al-Quran only,
Nice post, but don't expect any response from the arabic specialists here that don't agree with you. You may have spooked them off with this one.
Welcome to the forum though! welcome
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Dear Maria
When The word "Khimaar' is used for• 1;woman it EXCLUSIVELY means head cover
2any other thing then it is a cover (not necessarily that of cloth)
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Taajul Aroos says
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From second definition which you are using "Khimaar " can be anycover of anything.The cover of manhole is also a khimaar.Are the women ordered to cover the breasts with
1;Bed covers
2;Windowpanes
3;curtains
4;Iron covers
5;wooden covers
But NOT HEADSCARF (ACCORDING TO YOU) -
Why do you rant so much? Where is anything remotely from Al Quran that could add to this discussion in this crap that you write? hmm If you don't like this thread....pick another one! and stop brickwall you seem & or do you just want to voodoo us?
What do you know what I know? Who are you to judge? When I say something with certainty, I say it because I know it to my satisfaction. If you want to hear something else, then go yourself to whoever you please. I say what I have said because I am certain of it. If you are certain of what you say, then that is good enough for you, great, practice it and enjoy it, I wish you all the best. But you see, I don't like speculation and picking hints here and there and then coming up with something invented. So as far as I am concerned your certainties are not convincing, I am sorry to say. If there was a command in the qur'an to cover the head we could never deny it and we would not be dicussing about it. We do not deny there is a command not to eat pork, not to go about unddressed, and not to commit adultery. ?Have you seen anybody deny that? But there is not command to cover the head. Many men would like that there should be such a command and they strive hard to for it. But the Qur'an was revealed many hundreds of years ago and it didn't bring such command. Why it is so important for some people that there should be such thing beats me. However, even realising how much its lack makes some people suffer, the QUR'AN DOES NOT ORDER WOMEN TO COVER THEIR HEAD. And nobody has quoted such a thing, and a few more millions of pages speculating on the history of apparel and fashion won't make appear in the Qur'an such a comand. That people should go to such ridiculous extremes to have their whim on this is part of what makes people feel repelled by anything about the Qur'an and the Truth, because they come thinking of truth and they get an unending shower of superficialities and ridiculous nonsense, which indeed is nto in the Qur'an but the warped minds of those who give their own fantasies on it instead of reflecting and accepting.
So do you want me to go and ask? Why? do you think that this has not been already answered thousands of times by the best "scholars" to most people utter disatisfaction? It did satisfy you? Magnificent. So we are both happy. If there was reincarnation, it would be great. You could again be born a woman and cover your head almost all the time, which is so miraculous.
Salaam
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Salaams Raj-ah,
Very well said, along with other things in your post. Nice to see another voice of reason.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
the words used by the Qur?an are such that one is inclined towards believing that the Qur?an wants Muslim women to cover their heads when they have to interact with men and the logical reason for this is as said by Learner
The Words "They should spread their head coverings over their bosoms", in my opinion, imply that the piece of cloth used as head coverings should be spread over the bosom while keeping the head covered. If the Qur?an wanted women to cover only their bosoms with a piece of cloth, I think it would then have been more appropriate to give the directive without any reference to the head coverings. It seems that Arab women used to cover their heads with a long piece of cloth let the sides of that cloth hang behind them. What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging. -
My rant, my dear brother IQO is that you are free to wear what you like, I am free to wear what I want, but you are not free to invent commands and attribute them to the Truthful Qur'an.
Salaam
Invention is this that people have given such meaning to "khimaar" that if some lady goes to some "mall" and asks for "khimaar" and she is handed over the "Lid of the manhole because "Khimaar means any sort of cover".
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Huh? ??? Are you so absorbed with trying to dispute with me that you are now confusing me with Al-Quran Only huruf? hmm wow rotfl
?Why am I not surprised that when you are looking for an analogy of a piece of feminine clothing you come up with the cover of a gutter?
Salaam, IQO
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My excuses, IQO, seems that I got the "onlys" mixed up. So that one was not for you.
My excuses Al-Quran only. I take the surprise particularly regarding you personally, although in general it happens many time that fruedian slips of this kind show what people think really. Since I don't know you that much to be suprised or not, my excuses. Now, freudian slips or not, you argument doesn't cut. There is no command to cover the head in the Qur'an, no matter how many kinds of plain covers, head covers or manhole covers you make appear in front of the spectator.
Salaam
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There is no command to cover the head in the Qur'an, no matter how many kinds of plain covers, head covers or manhole covers you make appear in front of the spectator.
ARE YOU SO 100% SURE THAT KHIMAAR IN 2431 DOES NOT MEAN HEADSCARF, AND THAT FOR BELIEVING WOMEN TO SPREAD IT OVER THEIR CHEST AREA MEANS THAT THEY KEEP IT ON THEIR HEAD AND DO THAT WITH IT ON THEIR HEAD; THAT YOU DON'T FEAR ALLAH FOR SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST AT ALL IN AL-QURAN? & & & & &
